So Much for Sorc Tanks, I Guess

DerAlleinTiger · July 8

Hey, ZOS. Why in the world did you think it was a good idea to take the class armor buff ability for sorcs and make it just not give any armor buff for BOTH morphs? What's the point now? You know, that was kind of the fun of sorc tanks. They aren't meta and never were, but the fun was becoming a torrent of lightning shooting out at your foes while you hold them in place, a tanky ball of lightning, a classic battlemage. What's the point now? If you wanted to change hurricane, specifically, because it's more of the 'DPS morph,' I'd understand. But BOTH morphs? Why? What's the point?

I've been playing a sorc tank as my main for 11 years and I've adored the playstyle, even if it isn't optimal. Yet now my armor buff is just... poof, gone. I don't want to multiclass for it. I don't like multiclassing most of my characters. Now I just have to... what? Oil up my sorc tank with the heavy armor ability? What's the point of even playing a sorc tank at that point? Are we going back to the launch days where stamina sorc is just the weapon skill build, only now it's tanks instead? What an utterly thoughtless change.

There's no point begging since it's hit PTS so it's not going to change before it goes live, but I wish just once you'd actually listen and not go through with this change as-is. If you want to change hurricane, fine, but leave the magicka morph alone. It's exactly what I want it to be, and apparently a lot of other sorcs too.

Nestor · July 8

Subclassing?

DerAlleinTiger · July 8

Nestor wrote: »

Subclassing?

That's what ZOS called it, but it's multiclassing by every definition.

MincMincMinc · July 8

Zos: We want to change these because they are not used for active skills
Also Zos: hey lets make it a buff that people fire and forget for 30-40s

Can we just bring the skill back to being the block mit active that was actually useful? Why is one morph even a stackable half thought through merciless resolve that does no damage?

Maybe do something cool and more unique like it can return resources when blocking hits or something. Literally think of anything cool and unique that makes people want to run the skill line at all.

SaintJohnHM · July 8

Yep. The changes are garbage, they just don't get it.

Soarora · July 8

Sorc tanks are not obliterated with the change to lightning form, though it does mean that now it's pointless for us to run it and I understand that may alter your gameplay if you enjoy the ability. Sorc tanks are powerful, we have incredibly strong self-shield, self-heal, streak/ball of lightning, major maim and minor vitality, major berserk for the group, amazing block mit, and more. Sorc tanks actually have been meta for some circumstances because of streak/ball of lightning and atronach. Regardless, you do not need to subclass for major resolve. They moved major resolve to bound aegis, which in my opinion you should be slotting anyways.

emilyhyoyeon · July 8

As already mentioned, but just to reiterate, sorcerer has major Resolve on Bound Aegis now, passively, which is the skill that increases block mitigation by 40% for 5 seconds.

Sorcerer tank has plenty of tankiness still with Ward, Clannfear, and Vibrant Shroud (which still applies major Maim to enemies like bosses even if the immobilization doesn't apply).

Sorcerer tank is losing only:
minor Protection
+8% magicka

swap the Lightning Form slot with Flare for major Protection, you'll probably barely notice a difference in tankiness (actually you'll be tankier); and you will get a solid +10% magicka regen from it as well

WuffyCerulei · July 8

I’m more majorly annoyed they’re removing the max resources for Bound Armor and morphs. Why?? Everyone who’d use it, tanks, healers, and DPS, benefits from the max resources on the skill. Swapping the minor protection and max resources for Major Resolve, which is easily got in MANY skills, or Major Prophecy/Savagery which can easily be gotten with Grim Focus+morphs in the PTS, potions, and other skills, just makes no sense to me.

WildRumpus · July 9

As someone who would find myself slotting Balance more than Boundless Storm, the changes if anything help sorc tanks by condensing a skill you already like running (Bound Aegis) into passive major resolve as well, which frees up a bar shot

WalkingBomb · July 9

WildRumpus wrote: »

As someone who would find myself slotting Balance more than Boundless Storm, the changes if anything help sorc tanks by condensing a skill you already like running (Bound Aegis) into passive major resolve as well, which frees up a bar shot

I very much agree with this! Can finally drop balance for Aegis and I couldn't be happier for it!

Yudo · July 9

We get major resolve in a skill we already use defensively. I think this is great!
Finally I can get rid of the annoying lightning form visuals and still maintain major resolve. Thank you!

Faulgor · July 9

I never used Lightning Form on my Sorc tank, because I hate the visual effect so much.

The recent nerf to the heal on Hardened Ward was much worse for me. Losing Minor Protection is kinda sad, though. I'd rather have that on Bound Aegis than Minor Resolve, which I get from Vigor anyway.

i11ionward · July 9

Hey everyone,

I've never tanked on a Sorcerer before, and I'm just looking at the Bound Aegis skill. Specifically, the part that increases your block mitigation by 40% for 5 seconds at a cost of 4050 Magicka.
To me, that seems incredibly expensive and not very useful for such a short duration. Am I right in thinking that 40% block mitigation for 5 seconds isn't really worth 4050 Magicka, or is there something I'm missing about why it might be considered strong? Just curious to hear general thoughts.

DerAlleinTiger · July 9

Soarora wrote: »

Sorc tanks are not obliterated with the change to lightning form, though it does mean that now it's pointless for us to run it and I understand that may alter your gameplay if you enjoy the ability.

You could have stopped right there because that's 110% my entire point.

I loved lightning form. I don't play sorc tank for the numbers. I play it because I love the theme of it. I love a lightning-slinging battlemage tank. Lightning form has become such a staple skill not just in gameplay alone but the aesthetic too. It was such a perfect skill for me and exactly what I wanted out of a sorc tank and why I loved it. It was half the reason I enjoyed sorc tanking to start with, buffing your armor while damaging enemies around you, and passively healing with surge (yet more lightning) all stacking on top of more lightning AoE's.

Having major resolve passively on aegis isn't just extremely boring, but completely takes away what I want out of sorc tank, and what I've enjoyed about sorc tank for 11 years. So now to keep what I love most about sorc tanks I have to give up another skill to get my major resolve, which means somewhere I'm losing something like another lightning AoE, or a utility, or something that I would really rather keep over aegis most of the time. Aegis is an alright skill. Fine in concept. Just not something I want on my bar as much as I do lightning form.

DerAlleinTiger · July 9

Yudo wrote: »

We get major resolve in a skill we already use defensively. I think this is great!
Finally I can get rid of the annoying lightning form visuals and still maintain major resolve. Thank you!

That's nice for you, but it was the #1 reason I loved sorc tanks. The aesthetic, the feel, the mechanics of it. I loved everything about lightning form. That's not something that can just be replaced, unlike major resolve itself, which has had multiple other sources for years that any tank - including sorc - could access.

This change is just... depressing, honestly. I couldn't care any less if it's technically better if you use the min-maxed build, it's taken away the first reason I main'd the class back in 2014 and the decade since. If I only cared about meta numbers, I'd be using pets, but I don't because I hate pet builds. I play sorc for the lightning, be it DPS or tank. Having the lightning taken away for tank just takes away the whole point I play sorc.

DerAlleinTiger · July 9

WildRumpus wrote: »

As someone who would find myself slotting Balance more than Boundless Storm, the changes if anything help sorc tanks by condensing a skill you already like running (Bound Aegis) into passive major resolve as well, which frees up a bar shot

You assume I like running bound aegis. I don't most of the time. I'll slot it for the very rare fight where it actually is useful, but most of the time I don't use aegis.

DerAlleinTiger · July 9

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

As already mentioned, but just to reiterate, sorcerer has major Resolve on Bound Aegis now, passively, which is the skill that increases block mitigation by 40% for 5 seconds.

And I don't care. I like lightning tanks. I like boundless storm as it is right now, and hate everything about this change to it. It was the absolute perfect skill for me and the #1 thing that drew me to sorc tank 11 years ago, and kept me with it ever since. This just kind of makes not even want to play sorc tank, because what's the point? Where's the fun in it? A passive armor buff on a skill that I never use? I might as well play any other class at that point because sorc tank isn't sorc tank anymore. It's... generic magic tank? Thematically, you lose sorc's signature element. Mechanically, nothing is more boring than an ability that you just slot and forget about.

Not everything is about stats and meta.

emilyhyoyeon · July 9

DerAlleinTiger wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

As already mentioned, but just to reiterate, sorcerer has major Resolve on Bound Aegis now, passively, which is the skill that increases block mitigation by 40% for 5 seconds.

And I don't care. I like lightning tanks. I like boundless storm as it is right now, and hate everything about this change to it. It was the absolute perfect skill for me and the #1 thing that drew me to sorc tank 11 years ago, and kept me with it ever since. This just kind of makes not even want to play sorc tank, because what's the point? Where's the fun in it? A passive armor buff on a skill that I never use? I might as well play any other class at that point because sorc tank isn't sorc tank anymore. It's... generic magic tank? Thematically, you lose sorc's signature element. Mechanically, nothing is more boring than an ability that you just slot and forget about.

Not everything is about stats and meta.

in your OP:

I've been playing a sorc tank as my main for 11 years and I've adored the playstyle, even if it isn't optimal. Yet now my armor buff is just... poof, gone. I don't want to multiclass for it. I don't like multiclassing most of my characters. Now I just have to... what? Oil up my sorc tank with the heavy armor ability?

Which makes it seem like you're concerned about the change for stats reasons as well.

Also, you don't just slot Bound Aegis and forget it. Its active is 40% increase to block mitigation for 5 seconds; that's incredibly good, not to be ignored for a lot of content.

I love magic based tanks. My main character is my battlemage tank. Personally, I never heavily associated slinging lightning with sorcerer tank. To me, sorcerer tank was all about Conjuration magic with bound armor spells, conjured familiars, and stat manipulation through spells. But this is also just opinion.

If you do associate it with lightning, that sucks. But there's nothing ''utterly thoughtless'' about the change; it makes a lot of sense objectively.

Yusuf · July 9

Moving Major Resolve to be passively granted by Bound Armor is the ONE thing i can tolerate in this patch.
I always hated that it made my character translucent. Makes it harder to see what's going on in a chaotic dungeon.

i11ionward wrote: »

Hey everyone,

I've never tanked on a Sorcerer before, and I'm just looking at the Bound Aegis skill. Specifically, the part that increases your block mitigation by 40% for 5 seconds at a cost of 4050 Magicka.
To me, that seems incredibly expensive and not very useful for such a short duration. Am I right in thinking that 40% block mitigation for 5 seconds isn't really worth 4050 Magicka, or is there something I'm missing about why it might be considered strong? Just curious to hear general thoughts.

You don't constantly use it. You cast the skill in anticipation of heavy incoming damage. For example, you can block heavy attacks that other tanks need to dodge, move out of or counter-heal.

Yudo · July 9

Moving resolve is good, losing 8% max resource from aegis is pain though

Renato90085 · July 9

i11ionward wrote: »

Hey everyone,

I've never tanked on a Sorcerer before, and I'm just looking at the Bound Aegis skill. Specifically, the part that increases your block mitigation by 40% for 5 seconds at a cost of 4050 Magicka.
To me, that seems incredibly expensive and not very useful for such a short duration. Am I right in thinking that 40% block mitigation for 5 seconds isn't really worth 4050 Magicka, or is there something I'm missing about why it might be considered strong? Just curious to hear general thoughts.

in trial/dungreon hardmode,the boss heavy attack only 1sec
this skill can useing hold many 1 shot dmg ,other tank need dodge or use many shield/def cp build

CAB_Life · July 9

Re: sorc. This consolidates skills and their buffs into respective tank/ healer/ dps skill lines. So the pet line is the official tanking line, and storm calling is now predominantly a dos pick. Like I said, when they announced the multiclassing system, they would need some guardrails and even noted this streamlining as the most likely probability. I would expect the same to happen to Templar skill lines soon, and whatever other base classes remain as outliers. A natural conclusion of this methodology will be to enforce a hard cap of 1 tank/ healer/ dps line—but we'll see if they take it that far. Regardless, tidying up the skill lines for the base classes is the only way to balance (aka limit) so many skills and choices.

GloatingSwine · July 9

CAB_Life wrote: »

Re: sorc. This consolidates skills and their buffs into respective tank/ healer/ dps skill lines.

Sort of but not really?

Daedric Summoning will now have Major Res/Minor Protec, a strong damage shield, and Major Zerk but Matriarch isn't a reliable self heal and Ward lost that. It doesn't apply any debuffs to the enemy either.

Dark Magic is a what even is this skill line. It's certainly not a healer line, it has no heals on it just a group damage shield. It has some DPS and some of the tank debuffs in the form of a source of Maim.

If they want to go the whole hog, they should make Matriarch be a dedicated self heal and put Maim on the Clannfear instead of Encase.

Then rework Dark Magic into a full on healing line (maybe with a high risk buff theme so it feels Dark Magicky, eg skills that cost your health to buff the rest of the team).

Heronisan · July 9

GloatingSwine wrote: »

CAB_Life wrote: »

Re: sorc. This consolidates skills and their buffs into respective tank/ healer/ dps skill lines.

Daedric Summoning will now have Major Res/Minor Protec, ).

Sorc have no source of minor protection anymore after its removed from bound aegis no? I cant find it anywhere

Soarora · July 9

i11ionward wrote: »

Hey everyone,

I've never tanked on a Sorcerer before, and I'm just looking at the Bound Aegis skill. Specifically, the part that increases your block mitigation by 40% for 5 seconds at a cost of 4050 Magicka.
To me, that seems incredibly expensive and not very useful for such a short duration. Am I right in thinking that 40% block mitigation for 5 seconds isn't really worth 4050 Magicka, or is there something I'm missing about why it might be considered strong? Just curious to hear general thoughts.

As another said, you don’t constantly use it. One use case of bound aegis is the hard mode of earthen root enclave on the last boss. The boss does a conal attack that does so much damage that any other tank has to use the heavy armor skill for the block mitigation. The heavy armor skill renders you immobile and takes up a bar slot while we can move and slot something else in this context. The block mitigation you normally have plus the bound aegis mitigation gets you to 99% block mitigation, the highest you can get. Not often needed, very nice when you do need it.