MincMincMinc wrote: »

You forgot to say the answer is always sets.......that the ballgroups end up running

Tbf this set doesn't do much to wreck zergs. Ballgroups will definitely still run it, but only because it'll be amazing for fighting other Ballgroups.

This is like the one set they've introduced that basically can't be used against zergs more effectively.

Editing to add: that doesn't make this set okay BTW. It's still a bizarre choice to try to address the issue of HoTstacking by making a set that'll be required to run to fight ball groups instead of just addressing the issue of HoTstacking innately or through battle spirit.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

You forgot to say the answer is always sets.......that the ballgroups end up running

It'll be an average or below average damage set when used against anyone not in the ballgroup setting. I don't know whether they'll use it or not, really depends on whether their goals are to farm uncoordinated factions or to target other ball groups.

Regardless, it just seems so tone deaf to release sets like this (and SITS) which show they clearly understand the issues, but won't actually address them.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

You forgot to say the answer is always sets.......that the ballgroups end up running

Tbf this set doesn't do much to wreck zergs. Ballgroups will definitely still run it, but only because it'll be amazing for fighting other Ballgroups.

This is like the one set they've introduced that basically can't be used against zergs more effectively.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

You forgot to say the answer is always sets.......that the ballgroups end up running

Tbf this set doesn't do much to wreck zergs. Ballgroups will definitely still run it, but only because it'll be amazing for fighting other Ballgroups.

This is like the one set they've introduced that basically can't be used against zergs more effectively.

Came here to say this.

Right I meant more in general the previous history of how things have gone. I can still see it being fine on zergs since it is a density thing. If the players are 1/2 as good, but there are 2x as many chances are they will still have just as many hots or maybe more on the targets receiving smart heals.

---

We all know the real counter and solution to the problem of hot stacking would be to revert back to no over time effect stacking.

How would you actually do that, though?

Do more recent copies of an effect overwrite existing effects because their remaining duration is longer? Does the stronger copy win? Can your own copy of an effect be overwritten by a random or does the caster always have priority on themselves?

These are necessary problems to answer and implement and someone will be rightfully angry no matter what choices are made.

It sounds simple as a slogan but it touches much more gameplay than simply ballgrouping.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

You forgot to say the answer is always sets.......that the ballgroups end up running

Tbf this set doesn't do much to wreck zergs. Ballgroups will definitely still run it, but only because it'll be amazing for fighting other Ballgroups.

This is like the one set they've introduced that basically can't be used against zergs more effectively.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

You forgot to say the answer is always sets.......that the ballgroups end up running

Tbf this set doesn't do much to wreck zergs. Ballgroups will definitely still run it, but only because it'll be amazing for fighting other Ballgroups.

This is like the one set they've introduced that basically can't be used against zergs more effectively.

Came here to say this.

Right I meant more in general the previous history of how things have gone. I can still see it being fine on zergs since it is a density thing. If the players are 1/2 as good, but there are 2x as many chances are they will still have just as many hots or maybe more on the targets receiving smart heals.

---

We all know the real counter and solution to the problem of hot stacking would be to revert back to no over time effect stacking.

How would you actually do that, though?

Do more recent copies of an effect overwrite existing effects because their remaining duration is longer? Does the stronger copy win? Can your own copy of an effect be overwritten by a random or does the caster always have priority on themselves?

These are necessary problems to answer and implement and someone will be rightfully angry no matter what choices are made.

It sounds simple as a slogan but it touches much more gameplay than simply ballgrouping.

I forget how the old rules used to work tbh. I want to say that the stronger tooltip always won, but would be rewritten by the caster.

You can play through different scenarios though and in PvE this causes significant issues obviously. However in PvP the chances become exceedingly less and less. Even so when the chances of overlap do start to happen the group sizes are getting large enough that it becomes a softcap to prevent abuse of a particular meta. Remember the sloads soul meta where you would just be run down by 5 people abusing oblivion damage dots with no limitation?

Should a pug in a 100 man zerg casting into a void be as efficient as a duo coordinating morphs to cover each other? Will that pug even notice that his hot didnt tick for the 5th time on that random 1/99 players infront of them? With how many skills in the game compared to back then, how many people run the same skills?

Back in the day not stacking effects would give reason to run the other morphs like mutagen and rapid regen. Instead of always choosing the 1% more efficient morph. This would have an even more profound effect on dealing with pvp balance issues of subclassing. Suddenly not everyone can slot the BiS subclassing spam without downsides.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

You forgot to say the answer is always sets.......that the ballgroups end up running

Tbf this set doesn't do much to wreck zergs. Ballgroups will definitely still run it, but only because it'll be amazing for fighting other Ballgroups.

This is like the one set they've introduced that basically can't be used against zergs more effectively.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

You forgot to say the answer is always sets.......that the ballgroups end up running

Tbf this set doesn't do much to wreck zergs. Ballgroups will definitely still run it, but only because it'll be amazing for fighting other Ballgroups.

This is like the one set they've introduced that basically can't be used against zergs more effectively.

Came here to say this.

Right I meant more in general the previous history of how things have gone. I can still see it being fine on zergs since it is a density thing. If the players are 1/2 as good, but there are 2x as many chances are they will still have just as many hots or maybe more on the targets receiving smart heals.

---

We all know the real counter and solution to the problem of hot stacking would be to revert back to no over time effect stacking.

How would you actually do that, though?

Do more recent copies of an effect overwrite existing effects because their remaining duration is longer? Does the stronger copy win? Can your own copy of an effect be overwritten by a random or does the caster always have priority on themselves?

These are necessary problems to answer and implement and someone will be rightfully angry no matter what choices are made.

It sounds simple as a slogan but it touches much more gameplay than simply ballgrouping.

Ideally it would work by snapshotting the highest heal and just refreshing the duration.

So lets say a healer hits you with vigor, you can extend that vigor buff on yourself/your group members (at the healers higher healing value) by refreshing it with your own vigor cast.

The problem with that now is layering in proc set casts. Oh vigor was cast on your group during an acuity proc. Ok well it permanently has 100% crit so long as it gets recast.

There will be inevitable loss, but the question is does it really matter? At the same time its a reduction in power creep for everyone. Its not like one zerg will fundamentally be at an advantage. Solo and small man groups will be the same, its just that abusive group play would be limited. Getting more players soloing and small man grouping to spread out the playerbase can only help reduce combat hotspots or singularity points as well. Just look how laggy the malacath hammer can make the server when all three factions are in one centralized location.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

You forgot to say the answer is always sets.......that the ballgroups end up running

Tbf this set doesn't do much to wreck zergs. Ballgroups will definitely still run it, but only because it'll be amazing for fighting other Ballgroups.

This is like the one set they've introduced that basically can't be used against zergs more effectively.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

You forgot to say the answer is always sets.......that the ballgroups end up running

Tbf this set doesn't do much to wreck zergs. Ballgroups will definitely still run it, but only because it'll be amazing for fighting other Ballgroups.

This is like the one set they've introduced that basically can't be used against zergs more effectively.

Came here to say this.

Right I meant more in general the previous history of how things have gone. I can still see it being fine on zergs since it is a density thing. If the players are 1/2 as good, but there are 2x as many chances are they will still have just as many hots or maybe more on the targets receiving smart heals.

---

We all know the real counter and solution to the problem of hot stacking would be to revert back to no over time effect stacking.

How would you actually do that, though?

Do more recent copies of an effect overwrite existing effects because their remaining duration is longer? Does the stronger copy win? Can your own copy of an effect be overwritten by a random or does the caster always have priority on themselves?

These are necessary problems to answer and implement and someone will be rightfully angry no matter what choices are made.

It sounds simple as a slogan but it touches much more gameplay than simply ballgrouping.

Ideally it would work by snapshotting the highest heal and just refreshing the duration.

So lets say a healer hits you with vigor, you can extend that vigor buff on yourself/your group members (at the healers higher healing value) by refreshing it with your own vigor cast.

The problem with that now is layering in proc set casts. Oh vigor was cast on your group during an acuity proc. Ok well it permanently has 100% crit so long as it gets recast.

There will be inevitable loss, but the question is does it really matter? At the same time its a reduction in power creep for everyone. Its not like one zerg will fundamentally be at an advantage. Solo and small man groups will be the same, its just that abusive group play would be limited. Getting more players soloing and small man grouping to spread out the playerbase can only help reduce combat hotspots or singularity points as well. Just look how laggy the malacath hammer can make the server when all three factions are in one centralized location.

Here's the thing - adding a HoT stack cap would only barely adjust the ceiling for ball groups. All that would happen is ball groups would now have to diversify their skill lines a bit more and instead of everyone slotting Vigor, one person slots Vigor, one Radiating, one Refreshing Path, one Intensive Mender, one Cauterize, one Green Lotus, etc etc., as well as adding in a couple more group aoe burst heals.

They would still have tons and tons of healing power, and against the average zerg, would still feel unkillable. The difference would be that it'd be a bit harder to theory craft, and thus tone down the ease of reaching nigh immortality.

That's not an argument against adding a HoT stack cap - quite the opposite, I think it should absolutely be added because it makes for more interesting group comps than having 6+ wardens all running Echoing Vigor.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

You forgot to say the answer is always sets.......that the ballgroups end up running

Tbf this set doesn't do much to wreck zergs. Ballgroups will definitely still run it, but only because it'll be amazing for fighting other Ballgroups.

This is like the one set they've introduced that basically can't be used against zergs more effectively.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

You forgot to say the answer is always sets.......that the ballgroups end up running

Tbf this set doesn't do much to wreck zergs. Ballgroups will definitely still run it, but only because it'll be amazing for fighting other Ballgroups.

This is like the one set they've introduced that basically can't be used against zergs more effectively.

Came here to say this.

Right I meant more in general the previous history of how things have gone. I can still see it being fine on zergs since it is a density thing. If the players are 1/2 as good, but there are 2x as many chances are they will still have just as many hots or maybe more on the targets receiving smart heals.

---

We all know the real counter and solution to the problem of hot stacking would be to revert back to no over time effect stacking.

How would you actually do that, though?

Do more recent copies of an effect overwrite existing effects because their remaining duration is longer? Does the stronger copy win? Can your own copy of an effect be overwritten by a random or does the caster always have priority on themselves?

These are necessary problems to answer and implement and someone will be rightfully angry no matter what choices are made.

It sounds simple as a slogan but it touches much more gameplay than simply ballgrouping.

Ideally it would work by snapshotting the highest heal and just refreshing the duration.

So lets say a healer hits you with vigor, you can extend that vigor buff on yourself/your group members (at the healers higher healing value) by refreshing it with your own vigor cast.

The problem with that now is layering in proc set casts. Oh vigor was cast on your group during an acuity proc. Ok well it permanently has 100% crit so long as it gets recast.

There will be inevitable loss, but the question is does it really matter? At the same time its a reduction in power creep for everyone. Its not like one zerg will fundamentally be at an advantage. Solo and small man groups will be the same, its just that abusive group play would be limited. Getting more players soloing and small man grouping to spread out the playerbase can only help reduce combat hotspots or singularity points as well. Just look how laggy the malacath hammer can make the server when all three factions are in one centralized location.

by snapshotting I was meaning more so the weapon/spell dmg / healing boosts associated, for example vigor already snapshots weapon/spell dmg. Thats why casting it on a dualwield swords double nirnhoned then swapping to resto staff powered gives out more healing than just casting it on the resto powered bar.

If you converted the 'healing done' stat to be 'weapon/spell dmg to healing abilities' that would enable that to be transferred in this way (keeps having an 'actual healer' beneficial compared to a dps slotting vigor)

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

You forgot to say the answer is always sets.......that the ballgroups end up running

Tbf this set doesn't do much to wreck zergs. Ballgroups will definitely still run it, but only because it'll be amazing for fighting other Ballgroups.

This is like the one set they've introduced that basically can't be used against zergs more effectively.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

You forgot to say the answer is always sets.......that the ballgroups end up running

Tbf this set doesn't do much to wreck zergs. Ballgroups will definitely still run it, but only because it'll be amazing for fighting other Ballgroups.

This is like the one set they've introduced that basically can't be used against zergs more effectively.

Came here to say this.

Right I meant more in general the previous history of how things have gone. I can still see it being fine on zergs since it is a density thing. If the players are 1/2 as good, but there are 2x as many chances are they will still have just as many hots or maybe more on the targets receiving smart heals.

---

We all know the real counter and solution to the problem of hot stacking would be to revert back to no over time effect stacking.

How would you actually do that, though?

Do more recent copies of an effect overwrite existing effects because their remaining duration is longer? Does the stronger copy win? Can your own copy of an effect be overwritten by a random or does the caster always have priority on themselves?

These are necessary problems to answer and implement and someone will be rightfully angry no matter what choices are made.

It sounds simple as a slogan but it touches much more gameplay than simply ballgrouping.

Ideally it would work by snapshotting the highest heal and just refreshing the duration.

So lets say a healer hits you with vigor, you can extend that vigor buff on yourself/your group members (at the healers higher healing value) by refreshing it with your own vigor cast.

The problem with that now is layering in proc set casts. Oh vigor was cast on your group during an acuity proc. Ok well it permanently has 100% crit so long as it gets recast.

There will be inevitable loss, but the question is does it really matter? At the same time its a reduction in power creep for everyone. Its not like one zerg will fundamentally be at an advantage. Solo and small man groups will be the same, its just that abusive group play would be limited. Getting more players soloing and small man grouping to spread out the playerbase can only help reduce combat hotspots or singularity points as well. Just look how laggy the malacath hammer can make the server when all three factions are in one centralized location.

Here's the thing - adding a HoT stack cap would only barely adjust the ceiling for ball groups. All that would happen is ball groups would now have to diversify their skill lines a bit more and instead of everyone slotting Vigor, one person slots Vigor, one Radiating, one Refreshing Path, one Intensive Mender, one Cauterize, one Green Lotus, etc etc., as well as adding in a couple more group aoe burst heals.

They would still have tons and tons of healing power, and against the average zerg, would still feel unkillable. The difference would be that it'd be a bit harder to theory craft, and thus tone down the ease of reaching nigh immortality.

That's not an argument against adding a HoT stack cap - quite the opposite, I think it should absolutely be added because it makes for more interesting group comps than having 6+ wardens all running Echoing Vigor.

Right rewarding thought and planning while implementing a softcap to abusive gameplay is a net benefit.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

You forgot to say the answer is always sets.......that the ballgroups end up running

Tbf this set doesn't do much to wreck zergs. Ballgroups will definitely still run it, but only because it'll be amazing for fighting other Ballgroups.

This is like the one set they've introduced that basically can't be used against zergs more effectively.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

You forgot to say the answer is always sets.......that the ballgroups end up running

Tbf this set doesn't do much to wreck zergs. Ballgroups will definitely still run it, but only because it'll be amazing for fighting other Ballgroups.

This is like the one set they've introduced that basically can't be used against zergs more effectively.

Came here to say this.

Right I meant more in general the previous history of how things have gone. I can still see it being fine on zergs since it is a density thing. If the players are 1/2 as good, but there are 2x as many chances are they will still have just as many hots or maybe more on the targets receiving smart heals.

---

We all know the real counter and solution to the problem of hot stacking would be to revert back to no over time effect stacking.

How would you actually do that, though?

Do more recent copies of an effect overwrite existing effects because their remaining duration is longer? Does the stronger copy win? Can your own copy of an effect be overwritten by a random or does the caster always have priority on themselves?

These are necessary problems to answer and implement and someone will be rightfully angry no matter what choices are made.

It sounds simple as a slogan but it touches much more gameplay than simply ballgrouping.

Ideally it would work by snapshotting the highest heal and just refreshing the duration.

So lets say a healer hits you with vigor, you can extend that vigor buff on yourself/your group members (at the healers higher healing value) by refreshing it with your own vigor cast.

The problem with that now is layering in proc set casts. Oh vigor was cast on your group during an acuity proc. Ok well it permanently has 100% crit so long as it gets recast.

There will be inevitable loss, but the question is does it really matter? At the same time its a reduction in power creep for everyone. Its not like one zerg will fundamentally be at an advantage. Solo and small man groups will be the same, its just that abusive group play would be limited. Getting more players soloing and small man grouping to spread out the playerbase can only help reduce combat hotspots or singularity points as well. Just look how laggy the malacath hammer can make the server when all three factions are in one centralized location.

by snapshotting I was meaning more so the weapon/spell dmg / healing boosts associated, for example vigor already snapshots weapon/spell dmg. Thats why casting it on a dualwield swords double nirnhoned then swapping to resto staff powered gives out more healing than just casting it on the resto powered bar.

If you converted the 'healing done' stat to be 'weapon/spell dmg to healing abilities' that would enable that to be transferred in this way (keeps having an 'actual healer' beneficial compared to a dps slotting vigor)

Right, but same example works. What if one guy runs 10kwd procs and then the group just keeps it going? Anyways there are alot more conversations that have to be made on the effect stacking issue for pvp.

Part 3 of that Q&A would be really nice right about now.

React wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

You forgot to say the answer is always sets.......that the ballgroups end up running

It'll be an average or below average damage set when used against anyone not in the ballgroup setting. I don't know whether they'll use it or not, really depends on whether their goals are to farm uncoordinated factions or to target other ball groups.

Regardless, it just seems so tone deaf to release sets like this (and SITS) which show they clearly understand the issues, but won't actually address them.

When we knew we were going against another ball group, we would change our builds (some even CP) on the fly.

I totally agree this set acknowledges the problem of HoT stacking, and it would be a lot more preferable if ZOS just addressed the core of the issue. But they do love to give us sets instead of fixing the game.

I will say at least this set has the merit that ball groups won't be using it to blow up solos and PUGs which is what usually happens.

Just allow one of each morph to tag for sticky HoTs, have the newest HoT refresh the oldest and lock sticky HoTs to groupmates only. Then allow only one Scribing Ward to be active at once of each warding skill.

Trials run two Healers. Have each Healer coordinate morphs, problem solved.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

You forgot to say the answer is always sets.......that the ballgroups end up running

So every Ballgroup DD would slot Spellshredder to get incredible 2% more dmg against solobuilds using only resolving vigor over mechanical acuity, vicious death or other sets increasing dmg much more often for every group member?

Any group or faction stack stacking enugh HoTs and shields to make this set effective ballgrouplike enaugh to deserves it even if they do not call themself a ballgroup.

Reason ballgroups end up running other sets is that these sets were not designed to specifically counter ballgroups but just „groups“ inclusing zergs who ballgroups build to farm.

RoA and Dark convergence are designed to stack spreadout zergs not ballgroups, why would I need a set to stack already stacked ballgroups?

Plaguebreak only worked against (ball)groups with a purger until ZoS transformed it into a ballgroup set by making it proc when target dies too.

Azureblight got nerfrequsted by ballgroups(some pretending to be solo/smallscaler) until it got nerfed.

Snake in the stars is not used by ballgroups.

React wrote: »

Spellshredder 5 Piece – Increase your damage done by 2% for each Damage Shield and Heal over Time effect on your target.

This set is so obviously designed specifically to combat ball groups, who typically have anywhere from 3-5 damage shields and 10-20 HOTs active at all times. It shows that the combat team UNDERSTANDS that this in itself is an issue - the stacking of this many shields and same morph HOTS. It isn't the first time we have seen them try to bandaid this problem with a set either - Snake in the stars was clearly designed and introduced with this exact problem in mind as well.

Yet in all this time, they have not once commented on the concerns of the community regarding how these mechanics function currently.

Why not? Why won't the team directly address the core issues here? How many times do we need to introduce poorly designed, bandaid fixes like this before coming to the conclusion that the counterplay tools aren't the issue, the overperforming nature of the mechanics are?

I don't think this works unless many people are using it in same time
I mean If you're the only one trying to effectively fight a ballgroup, you'll get nowhere.

Iriidius wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

You forgot to say the answer is always sets.......that the ballgroups end up running

So every Ballgroup DD would slot Spellshredder to get incredible 2% more dmg against solobuilds using only resolving vigor over mechanical acuity, vicious death or other sets increasing dmg much more often for every group member?

Any group or faction stack stacking enugh HoTs and shields to make this set effective ballgrouplike enaugh to deserves it even if they do not call themself a ballgroup.

Reason ballgroups end up running other sets is that these sets were not designed to specifically counter ballgroups but just „groups“ inclusing zergs who ballgroups build to farm.

RoA and Dark convergence are designed to stack spreadout zergs not ballgroups, why would I need a set to stack already stacked ballgroups?

Plaguebreak only worked against (ball)groups with a purger until ZoS transformed it into a ballgroup set by making it proc when target dies too.

Azureblight got nerfrequsted by ballgroups(some pretending to be solo/smallscaler) until it got nerfed.

Snake in the stars is not used by ballgroups.

Why would a ball group build to run down a solo 1vX player? Did my statement convey that?

Iriidius wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

You forgot to say the answer is always sets.......that the ballgroups end up running

Tbf this set doesn't do much to wreck zergs. Ballgroups will definitely still run it, but only because it'll be amazing for fighting other Ballgroups.

This is like the one set they've introduced that basically can't be used against zergs more effectively.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

You forgot to say the answer is always sets.......that the ballgroups end up running

Tbf this set doesn't do much to wreck zergs. Ballgroups will definitely still run it, but only because it'll be amazing for fighting other Ballgroups.

This is like the one set they've introduced that basically can't be used against zergs more effectively.

Came here to say this.

Right I meant more in general the previous history of how things have gone. I can still see it being fine on zergs since it is a density thing. If the players are 1/2 as good, but there are 2x as many chances are they will still have just as many hots or maybe more on the targets receiving smart heals.

---

We all know the real counter and solution to the problem of hot stacking would be to revert back to no over time effect stacking.

How would you actually do that, though?

Do more recent copies of an effect overwrite existing effects because their remaining duration is longer? Does the stronger copy win? Can your own copy of an effect be overwritten by a random or does the caster always have priority on themselves?

These are necessary problems to answer and implement and someone will be rightfully angry no matter what choices are made.

It sounds simple as a slogan but it touches much more gameplay than simply ballgrouping.

I forget how the old rules used to work tbh. I want to say that the stronger tooltip always won, but would be rewritten by the caster.

You can play through different scenarios though and in PvE this causes significant issues obviously. However in PvP the chances become exceedingly less and less. Even so when the chances of overlap do start to happen the group sizes are getting large enough that it becomes a softcap to prevent abuse of a particular meta. Remember the sloads soul meta where you would just be run down by 5 people abusing oblivion damage dots with no limitation?

Should a pug in a 100 man zerg casting into a void be as efficient as a duo coordinating morphs to cover each other? Will that pug even notice that his hot didnt tick for the 5th time on that random 1/99 players infront of them? With how many skills in the game compared to back then, how many people run the same skills?

Back in the day not stacking effects would give reason to run the other morphs like mutagen and rapid regen. Instead of always choosing the 1% more efficient morph. This would have an even more profound effect on dealing with pvp balance issues of subclassing. Suddenly not everyone can slot the BiS subclassing spam without downsides.

Yes players not coordinating morphs should be as effective as players coordinating morphs.


Not only the pug in a 100 man zerg would be unable to coordinate his morphs with 99 others but also the 2 smaller groups/players teaming up to have the same numbers as the large they are fighting.

Placing hots on 100 players already is does not work because even with longer duration of Multitarget morphs of vigor and regeneration the hot would run out on first players before you can cast on the last.

You can cast regen 10 times hitting 30 players before it runs out for the first if you spam it using nothing else.
If you also use echoing vigor or other skills you have less time/casts hitting less players.

Better solution would be to make a cap for total number of hots/shields from all morphs combined.

Only players that regularly play together can effort to coordinate Skills.

Just for reference when the no effect stacking was in place, randoms in zergs uncoordinating all chose different morphs for the exact reason to be more effective. Morphs back then were also much closer in use. Now adays the hurdle is that we have the remnants of the mag/stam copy skills. I am sure they are waiting until after vengeance testing to do a skill overhaul.