Once Again, The Stupid Protagonist

EramTheLiar · June 4

Over the many, many years I've played this game - and for the record, ENJOYED playing this game - I've seen more than a few posts complaining about how the game dialog choices portray our characters as, well, dumb. Any dialog choices intended to refresh the player's memory on specific points that already occurred tend to spur a reaction from the NPC as if it's suddenly dawning on them that the person they've placed all their hopes and dreams upon is pretty slow, or at least has so much head trauma their short term memory is shot. For the most part it never bothered me too much, because it sort of fits in with the ESO world humor - almost every character you meet is an idiot in some way, even the smart ones, and that's just part of the vibe.

But in this release it's really getting to me.

This is supposed to be a continuation of a story. The Dev's actually had genuine real-world interviews about how the Worm Cult knows you, remembers you, and hates you because you screwed up all their previous plans for world domination. There's supposed to be history here... and absolutely NONE of that is reflected in the dialog choices you are given in the game. It's all geared to people who are playing for the first time or who need to refresh their memories.

And don't get me wrong -- those dialog options are important. You shouldn't exclude new players, and those memory refreshers can be important for someone getting back into the game after years of absence. That said, there are no "grizzled veteran" options. There's no dialog choices where your character actually acknowledges they have history in the world, with a few notable exceptions.

For example, your character being gobsmacked when they learn Rigurt has a sister is pretty great.

But some of these choices are, frankly, downright insulting. Just a few, from off the top of my head.

- Gabrielle referring to Darian Gauthier as if you've never met him before. Like we didn't travel with Darian _and_ Gabrielle in at least two Covenant story arcs AND Coldharbor.
- Not to mention you even get to reminisce with Gabrielle about Darian in Greymoor!
- You not recognizing that FREAKING COLDHARBOR is invading the public dungeon and it's up to one of the NPCs to explain how she knows that FREAKING COLDHARBOR is invading the public dungeon.
- Gabrielle having to explain to you what FREAKING GRAPPLING BOWS ARE even though the INTRO MISSION TO ALL THE DRAGONGUARD STUFF introduces them.
- "Tell me who Galerion is again" (though this is admittedly softened by you having a dialog opportunity to mock Vanus mercilessly later, and Gabrielle's response is "yes... well... you're not wrong, but"

There is _some_ callback with some of the NPCs. Gabrielle remembers you, even though she apparently doesn't remember why she should. And it's always nice to meet

Raz

because he'll immediately decide "oh, we're working together again, that's fantastic"

The reason it didn't bother me so much in the past is that most of the refresher dialog choices in the old missions were optional. You could just end the dialog and move on with the mission. But in a solid number of these if you end the dialog before your character asks a question your character should already know the answer to because of past history, the dialog resets because you haven't reached the "dialog end, mission continue" part yet. In other words, you're forced into the stupid questions.

Don't get me wrong, I'm enjoying the game and the story. Just not my character so much. My apparently stupid, stupid character, who hasn't been given the opportunity by the develops to remember ANY of his past history even though so much of that history appears to have directly affected what is going on now.

Harrumph, I say, and and I say again, HARRUMPH

Syldras · June 4

You might want to join us here, with the last pages about the new content:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/677845/the-writing-for-the-upcoming-story-content-some-thoughts-on-the-latest-news-article

mrreow · June 4

I know this is an mmo with casual vibe and nothing wrong with that but it irks me how the quests make us not respect the characters one bit.

I am probably dumb too but why cannot we get sometimes an MMO with a writing quality of a single player game like expedition 33 or the like?

Why they are all so strange and infantile

What is a bit surreal is that there are many adult themes in this game and other MMOs but no matter how dark theoretically it can get you never feel any gravity to these NPCs fate and don’t give a slightest whatever happens to their fake cartoon selves

I really, really want to care about characters. Please ZOS. Make them behave like real people

Aliyavana · June 4

Nirncrux can cause memory loss. Maybe Gabrielle’s sister, Sara, accidentally spilled some Nirncrux powder she got from Craglorn on Gabrielle.

Atleast Nirncrux poisoning is the reasoning I use for the Vestige being dumb.

opaj · June 4

I'm only just starting out in the quest, but right off the bat I'm saying "The Stirk Fellowship?" and "The Order of the Black Worm?" and then, in the same conversation just a minute later, "Oh, I'm in the Stirk Fellowship."

It is a little frustrating. I'm still stoked for this update overall, but some of these dialogue options feel like a regression after the steady improvement I'd seen in this regard over the last few updates.

Thee_Cheshire_Cat · June 4

i will agree, it's pretty disheartening. Some people have dumped years of their lives into the game play. NPCs have become like old friends and stuff. Then you get to dialog like that where they dont remember you at ALL it's a kick in the teeth. There is no 'shared' anything. It's all one sided and that makes it feel like such a let down.

kind_hero · June 4

This is one of the issues I have when I play my main character, which is the same since ESO launched. I completed each story with her, and I also have some alts which did some parts in order.

Having being called "mercenary", "proxy", "traveller" etc is annoying for a veteran player. It would be nice to hear these when you have started a new character who is a nobody at that point. Sometimes is fun to feel how it is to start again. But after I completed the prologue, I expect some of the dialogues to be updated. Completing the main story should change lots of dialogues with the main NPCs.

The most catching up dialogue I have seen in High Isle, after you save all the three leaders, and you get to chat with them. So, it can be done quite well.

I am also a bit annoyed with so many dumb characters, like Skordo (who acts like a dumb child) and the Britt the Bold (new NPC related to a famous NPC). She even talks like a ***. I don't like how Nords are portrayed in ESO. Of course some Nords are drunks or hot headed, which is fine, but here, all are a caricature.

zaria · June 4

opaj wrote: »

I'm only just starting out in the quest, but right off the bat I'm saying "The Stirk Fellowship?" and "The Order of the Black Worm?" and then, in the same conversation just a minute later, "Oh, I'm in the Stirk Fellowship."

It is a little frustrating. I'm still stoked for this update overall, but some of these dialogue options feel like a regression after the steady improvement I'd seen in this regard over the last few updates.

I say this take the cake.

yes Ember I remember Jhaka, we rescued him a minute ago, also why should he send a letter, he could just turn around and talk to us?

And no he is not in Marbruk, he is just behind you.

This happens if you ignore Embers quests as you done it so many times while gaining report to go directly to next quest. Sure this is true for all companions, add an 30 minute cooldown to next quest trigger to not be as sureal as this.

it happened in one of my countless Oblivion games. More fun had he been 30 second faster he would had meet the gray fox who would made this way more hilarious. Lex talking to the gray fox about mudcrabs.

johnbonne · June 4

mrreow wrote: »

Why they are all so strange and infantile

What is a bit surreal is that there are many adult themes in this game and other MMOs but no matter how dark theoretically it can get you never feel any gravity to these NPCs fate and don’t give a slightest whatever happens to their fake cartoon selves

I really, really want to care about characters. Please ZOS. Make them behave like real people

I fully agree with you. The Elder Scrolls series has its silliness and it works in very small doses. The rest, no matter how alien, insane or warped, is grounded and presents itself with a straight face. In ESO, it seems to be the polar opposite.

The first book I read on my new character was Notes on Racial Phylogeny. It's so jarring reading an in-universe book written for TESIII: Morrowind because it completely clashes with the tone of where I found it, in Bleakrock Isle, which itself is hardly deserving of its name. I found this book in the same house as a dunmer who cracks wise about how they used to enslave members of my player character's race, nervously chuckling about it as if the worst thing about that sentence is how awkward the conversation is. Whereas Notes is a serious, unblinking footnote to a greater work that I could believe exists... in any other Elder Scrolls game. Here it's bizarre. The blasé mention of magical seduction and assault in that book is stomach churning as is, but in ESO it's a tonal hammer blow because it clashes with the casual banter Bleakrock's denizens engage in. Even with bookshelves randomly choosing a book, I'm sure it would be equally as weird seeing that sort of book in any other zone, because again, nearly all characters speak similarly.

I compare my Vestige questing to being the only person in a room who is listening in increasing horror to the lyrics of Warren Zevon's 'Excitable Boy' whilst everyone else is vibing to the sax solo, and not in an ironic way. Even people in the Shivering Isles would have that level of self-awareness, something I think is lacking in ESO. A shame because I'm playing this primarily for the lore and stories, and they are good but they're marred by their lack of more mature presentation. It doesn't have to go into graphic and traumatic detail, I just want to be spoken to like I'm an adult in Tamriel, not a comic relief moment for a Marvel movie trailer.

Jaimeh · June 4

The Vestige: hero of all the things, but somehow terrible at making a lasting impression and has a very poor memory

I haven't gotten the new chapter yet, but I remember noticing a few instances in the prologue where I thought they'd make great opportunities to make the dialogues a bit more personable and also reminisce about past events but alas.

Soarora · June 4

kind_hero wrote: »

This is one of the issues I have when I play my main character, which is the same since ESO launched. I completed each story with her, and I also have some alts which did some parts in order.

Having being called "mercenary", "proxy", "traveller" etc is annoying for a veteran player. It would be nice to hear these when you have started a new character who is a nobody at that point. Sometimes is fun to feel how it is to start again. But after I completed the prologue, I expect some of the dialogues to be updated. Completing the main story should change lots of dialogues with the main NPCs.

The most catching up dialogue I have seen in High Isle, after you save all the three leaders, and you get to chat with them. So, it can be done quite well.

I am also a bit annoyed with so many dumb characters, like Skordo (who acts like a dumb child) and the Britt the Bold (new NPC related to a famous NPC). She even talks like a ***. I don't like how Nords are portrayed in ESO. Of course some Nords are drunks or hot headed, which is fine, but here, all are a caricature.

I actually do like the alternative names but that’s because I don’t quest as my vestige. I think the poor writing is a consequence of zos letting people play any quest in any order. Quests need to be locked if you haven’t done the other quests once on your account. Alongside this, the DLC thus should be bundled with other relevant DLC(s) or locked until the other DLC(s) are obtained. This is the only way to have questlines that make sense. Dialogue can be rewritten based on quest completion but it costs money and storylines don’t change based on quest completion.

Maitsukas · June 5

The Vestige, speaking to a Daily Quest NPC after stopping the Planemeld:

TX12001rwb17_ESO · June 5

What is next? A High Elf Vestige asking what an Elf is? a Vampire asking what a Vampire? a Werewolf asking what a Werewolf is?

Thorncrypt · June 5

the game struggles with continuity because it is constantly having to deal with waves of new players who are coming and going with no idea of what happened 10 years ago in the main story or who may not have done the zone quests, greymoor, dragonhold or summerset. In FF14 you have to complete the story in a linear way whereas in ESO you can start and complete the story in any order so the devs have to keep that in mind while telling stories.

johnbonne · June 5

Maitsukas wrote: »

The Vestige, speaking to a Daily Quest NPC after stopping the Planemeld:

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

What is next? A High Elf Vestige asking what an Elf is? a Vampire asking what a Vampire? a Werewolf asking what a Werewolf is?

I'll never forget The Spoony Experiment's response to Ultima IX's "What's a Paladin?" moment. I won't link it in case it breaks the rules (frequent explicit language), but to summarise, the protagonist's best friend is a Paladin, who - two games ago - chose to self-immolate in a sacrifice to save the player character, so they can go about their quest to save the entire world as the Avatar of the Eight Virtues. The Avatar then goes on to completely forget who their most stalwart companion who gave his life in one of the most agonising ways seen in a game at the time by asking, and I quote, "What's a Paladin?"

I get it serves as a tutorial or reminder, but surely there's a better way of relaying information for a recap? To give one suggestion, I've always liked how in Obsidian/Owlcat's CRPGs you can hover over keywords and it'll give you a tooltip with a summary (which is greatly helpful in games like Rogue Trader, which is chock-full of 40k jargon). That way the player can choose what information they want a recap on without their avatar looking like they've not paid attention, and dialogue might flow a bit more smoothly.

SerafinaWaterstar · June 5

Ah but they CAN do it sometimes.

Had done Deadlands dlc on a character and when I finally did a delve in a DC area (?) (I can’t recall which one now) where you find Lyranth and I got completely different dialogue than when I hadn’t done Deadlands. Was amusing!

Heren · June 5

Thorncrypt wrote: »

the game struggles with continuity because it is constantly having to deal with waves of new players who are coming and going with no idea of what happened 10 years ago in the main story or who may not have done the zone quests, greymoor, dragonhold or summerset. In FF14 you have to complete the story in a linear way whereas in ESO you can start and complete the story in any order so the devs have to keep that in mind while telling stories.

The game struggles with continuity because ESO don't want do deal with continuity. FF14 might be one of kind about lvling progression, I don't know much about this game, but other MMO also have some or massive story continuity, and they also have a more or less 'not-so-rigid' system of progression, lvling wise, story wise. And they don't endlessly go about telling players what they done juste 30 seconds ago. Would be fun if every 5 quests in wow, we had to ask 'What the Horde / Alliance is already ?' to NPC, wouldn't be ?

I don't personaly mind if dialogues feature options about asking for more story elements, even if the questions can be rather weird, be give us options to also act like, we remember what the Worm Cult is, we know who Molag Bal, we've been in Coldharbour, and so on.

The thing is, having some 'Help me remember' options in dialogues is nice, but :
- They should be options, not the only answer.
- They shouldn't be in every dialogues, it's beyond ridicule at some point.
- They should try to be a bit more coherent with other elements, and with the current situation ( yeah, I don't think that there is a strong need to explain that the Worm Cult and the Order of the Worm are, in fact, the same thing ! <gasp of surprise> )
- Generaly, it might be better to have reminders not spread out everywhere along the quests chains, but concentrated in the beginning of the chapter, in the initial dialogues.
- ( And there might also be other ways to do the remininding ! )

But I'm not even sure that reminders are that useful, or needed.

- People interested in the story will invest themselves in it, they will pay more attention in details, remember more things - generely speaking they will read / listen to dialogues, not skip them. And if there is elements they don't remember fully, they might just, you know, search about them on internet. So for them, reminders utility is dubious, and constant reminders are just a massiv annoyance at this point, especialy when they are focused on such rubbish informations.

- People not interested in the story will just skip dialogues, go talk to the next NPC, skip dialogues, and so on until the end. For them, reminders are entirely useless.

I really feel that, while they might not represetend a massive work, writing all these reminders are kind of wasted ressources. And that, maybe, they are preventing writting to be a bit more engaging.

mrreow wrote: »

I am probably dumb too but why cannot we get sometimes an MMO with a writing quality of a single player game like expedition 33 or the like?

I don't think it is fair to directly compare single player games with MMO. There is most likely more ressources, more time also, dedicated to writing in these games ( and yes, very possibly more focus given to writing from the start ). But I agree, it would be nice to have better writing ( even if what better mean can be endlessly debated as different people have different tastes, expectations, etc ), and I really think ( or at least hope ! ) that it could be possible. Or at least, that improvement is possible.

ADarklore · June 5

Well, anyone who has done the "Cadwell's" Silver and Gold... there was a point just before accepting the quest, where you are told, "You'll be forgotten by everyone". However, they didn't say "WE" would forget.