The writing for the upcoming story content - some thoughts on the latest news article

JemadarofCaerSalis · May 16

Syldras wrote: »

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

I think even if it does have real life parallel, people need to realize that this is fiction

I honestly don't get why understanding this seems to be such a problem nowadays, since for many decades, it was not. Of course I've come across this sentiment a lot in the past years, in game forums for example, where some people seem to demand a statement that the things we're roleplaying or doing in a game or things an artist is writing (or portraying in one way or another) do of course not reflect our real world beliefs. The first time it honestly left me baffled because I could never imagine that someone would even think that.

I'm wondering whether that's another side-effect of writing that delivers obvious moral stories. So some people seem to think every piece of literature and every work of fiction is actually intended to be a moral teaching by the artist.

I agree, have you ever seen a show where you have gotten a metaphorical headache, because they were pounding the moral of the story in so much? I have. Stories where, in the middle of all the action, someone will take the time to give a five to 10 minute lecture on whatever the subject is.

I think people have gotten used to these types of stories, to the point where a story *doesn't* have that, they go looking for it, and thus any story they want to interact with *must* only have the morals they personally believe in. Any thing that they consider bad or evil must be explicitly and repeatedly denounced as such, and there is no such thing as grey. Someone is either good. or they are bad. No inbetween.

I also think that what Ilsabet said is true, people have also gotten used to seeing characters in a story as 'representation' and they only want positive representation, not nuanced. They don't want to see characters they like, or characters they see as a representation of something to have flaws.

As for Galerion and Mannimarco, I never really saw them as polar opposites, at least not at the beginning, but it would definitely be interesting to see.

Did they start out like they are in ESO, or did events sort of drive them to become near polar opposites of each other?

Cooperharley · May 16

The mainline stories in this game have been completely unimaginative in a variety of ways for years now.

1. Big baddie enters the scene
2. Big baddie wants to hurt the world in some way
3. We stop them using some artifact
4. The end
5. Everybody forgets about it
6. Next chapter announcement

I havent cared about the story in this game since morrowind-clockwork city-summerset

Feels like they just throw a dialogue randomizer in chat gpt lol

Syldras · May 16

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

I agree, have you ever seen a show where you have gotten a metaphorical headache, because they were pounding the moral of the story in so much? I have. Stories where, in the middle of all the action, someone will take the time to give a five to 10 minute lecture on whatever the subject is.
I think people have gotten used to these types of stories, to the point where a story *doesn't* have that, they go looking for it, and thus any story they want to interact with *must* only have the morals they personally believe in. Any thing that they consider bad or evil must be explicitly and repeatedly denounced as such, and there is no such thing as grey. Someone is either good. or they are bad. No inbetween.

I want to be honest: I rarely watch shows anymore. I don't often read modern novels either. It may sound strange for someone born in the mid/late 1980's, but somehow I can't relate to most modern fiction. There are a few exceptions (like The Lord Of The Rings, Dune, Fahrenheit 451 or I Am Legend), but normally, if it's after 1930 or so, it's just weird to me

I feel like a time traveler tossed into an absurd era much too often.

When it comes to clichéd good/bad thinking or characterizations of people, fairytales or kids shows come to my mind. And for those types of media, teaching their young readers or viewers some educational moral story makes sense. It might be a cultural difference, I don't know, but where I live it's a common sentiment that this is a big difference between children's and adult's media: Children might be taught directly through a story, but adults don't want a moral lession, they want a story they can think about for themselves, to come to their own conclusions. It's even seen as disrespectful to shoehorn a moral into a story too obviously, because it's seen as insulting the reader's intelligence.

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

As for Galerion and Mannimarco, I never really saw them as polar opposites, at least not at the beginning, but it would definitely be interesting to see.
Did they start out like they are in ESO, or did events sort of drive them to become near polar opposites of each other?

It's more that lorebooks tend to depict them as such - specifically that one about their final battle... What was its name? I can't remember right now. Anyway, in Summerset we have flashback scenes about their time as students, and there it's obvious that they were really close friends, until Mannimarco began his journey into necromancy.

Edit: I never get the quote brackets right

metheglyn · May 16

Syldras wrote: »

I wrote it in a different thread a few weeks ago: I had the impression they were not just friends. But of course, I'm well aware that my subjective impression can be skewed. In any case, I'd really be interested in learning more about their friendship and how their life was when they were younger (That's also something I'd love to see when it comes to Sotha Sil - and yes, I know about the tragic incident in Ald Sotha, but what happened in the years after that?).

Before Summerset, I really wasn't aware that they knew each other beyond the level of "two powerful Altmer who had probably run across one another from time to time." Those glimpses we get of their friendship made me more interested in both of them, and I also got the impression that it wasn't just friendship.

So yes, more about their pasts would be something I'd really like to see, whether it's in a lore book or delivered like it was in Summerset. And yes, please, to more about Sotha Sil! That one quest in Clockwork where you have to help the astronomer restore the constellations of his memories is fascinating to me because of the snippets we get of Sotha Sil's life. Frustrating too, though, because it is just snippets and not necessarily in any particular order.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I'd actual like a deeper look in Galerion's life and past than what I've had, because though I've read the in game lore books about him, who knows how accurate those are? I know in person he gets on my nerves quite a bit with his "I'm the great mage!" refrain, and I'd like to know if there's much more to him than overweening conceit.

Who knows whether he's actually that self-confident or just pretending to be (and maybe faking it a bit too much). If the story about his childhood is true, I think it's very much possible.

If it is an act he's putting on, that would make me like him more. The book about his childhood certainly gave me a different view on him the first time I read it, and while there's no doubt his achievements are impressive, having him remind me of it plays to my worst impulse of knocking him down a peg or two and reminding him about that time in Coldharbour when I had to free him.

Syldras · May 17

metheglyn wrote: »

Before Summerset, I really wasn't aware that they knew each other beyond the level of "two powerful Altmer who had probably run across one another from time to time." Those glimpses we get of their friendship made me more interested in both of them, and I also got the impression that it wasn't just friendship.

I'd somehow really appreciate if ZOS would confirm that - through well-written background lore, of course. They had lots of LGBT characters in ESO so far, but never someone really central (I mean, Pelinal and Huna were lovers, but in Oblivion it was toned down very much - which reminds me how different those times still were - , and I don't think in ESO there's more info on that?). I want to be honest: I'd be curious whether ZOS "dares" to or whether they'd be afraid of a backlash (where I live, it's not a big risk anymore, no one really cares, but I'm not sure about other places). In case of Mannimarco and Galerion it would work well, it would not contradict established lore, it would not feel artificial, but just like elaborating on lore we already have. Also, it would make their story more tragic

(And it would explain why they never had a relationship with anyone ever again - unless Wormblood is Mannimarco's son, which I'd find rather weird. Or wait, maybe it's an evil Galerion clone, cloned from a lock of hair that Mannimarco secretly cut off while Galerion was sleeping - evil Galerion! How... original

And horrible. Well, that would all be much too silly for my taste.)

metheglyn wrote: »

And yes, please, to more about Sotha Sil! That one quest in Clockwork where you have to help the astronomer restore the constellations of his memories is fascinating to me because of the snippets we get of Sotha Sil's life. Frustrating too, though, because it is just snippets and not necessarily in any particular order.

There's a written collection of all those snippets, at least:
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Mnemonic_Planisphere#Stars

Apart from the memory stars, there's also those "memories" or "dreams" the factotums have, there's also a list of that on UESP:
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Factotum_Dialogue

But I think this list is incomplete? Weren't factotums sometimes having "errors" where they utter rather disturbing phrases? "Burning houses, crashed roof" and things like that? Or more precisely the last memories of someone, possibly Sil's sister, who was murdered during the attack on Ald Sotha. My theory is that he soul-trapped her and tried to "revive" her in a factotum, just like he later tried it with the Saints you see in Asylum Sanctorium, but since it was probably his earliest attempt, the only thing that was successfully preserved were some of her memories.

It's a horribly sad and dark story, but really good story-telling. I was fascinated how much they made of Sotha Sil who didn't have that much lore back in TES3. I always hoped the quality would remain on that level.

metheglyn wrote: »

If it is an act he's putting on, that would make me like him more. The book about his childhood certainly gave me a different view on him the first time I read it, and while there's no doubt his achievements are impressive, having him remind me of it plays to my worst impulse of knocking him down a peg or two and reminding him about that time in Coldharbour when I had to free him.

I mean, we don't know. Having had a hard past doesn't necessarily make everyone humble. It's possible he remembers those days and only tries to seem aloof (and as that basically invulnerable). Or maybe he doesn't.

TX12001rwb17_ESO · May 17

I was reading the meet the character article and a thought occurred to me, now this would be a plot-twist

In Daggerfall the King of Worms is never called Mannimarco by name, what if it not Mannimarco and instead this Wormblood who is going by the name of King of Worms in Daggerfall.

Syldras · May 17

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

I was reading the meet the character article and a thought occurred to me, now this would be a plot-twist
In Daggerfall the King of Worms is never called Mannimarco by name, what if it not Mannimarco and instead this Wormblood who is going by the name of King of Worms in Daggerfall.

And what about Mannimarco in Oblivion?

TX12001rwb17_ESO · May 17

Syldras wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

I was reading the meet the character article and a thought occurred to me, now this would be a plot-twist
In Daggerfall the King of Worms is never called Mannimarco by name, what if it not Mannimarco and instead this Wormblood who is going by the name of King of Worms in Daggerfall.

And what about Mannimarco in Oblivion?

That is just Mannimarco, Im saying that the character in Daggerfall could be Wormblood and he is the one who becomes the God of Worms, Mannimarco on the otherhand is just a sad High Elf past his prime.

Syldras · May 17

I just took note of this part from the article:
"The cultists Raz questioned described Wormblood as a tall, gaunt High Elf with an unnatural pallor and dark eyes that “burn with unholy power.” They describe him as cold, logical, and impassive, preferring to speak only in whispers."
Why would he do that? Mannimarco trying to conceal his voice?

JemadarofCaerSalis · May 17

Syldras wrote: »

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

I agree, have you ever seen a show where you have gotten a metaphorical headache, because they were pounding the moral of the story in so much? I have. Stories where, in the middle of all the action, someone will take the time to give a five to 10 minute lecture on whatever the subject is.
I think people have gotten used to these types of stories, to the point where a story *doesn't* have that, they go looking for it, and thus any story they want to interact with *must* only have the morals they personally believe in. Any thing that they consider bad or evil must be explicitly and repeatedly denounced as such, and there is no such thing as grey. Someone is either good. or they are bad. No inbetween.

I want to be honest: I rarely watch shows anymore. I don't often read modern novels either. It may sound strange for someone born in the mid/late 1980's, but somehow I can't relate to most modern fiction. There are a few exceptions (like The Lord Of The Rings, Dune, Fahrenheit 451 or I Am Legend), but normally, if it's after 1930 or so, it's just weird to me I feel like a time traveler tossed into an absurd era much too often.

When it comes to clichéd good/bad thinking or characterizations of people, fairytales or kids shows come to my mind. And for those types of media, teaching their young readers or viewers some educational moral story makes sense. It might be a cultural difference, I don't know, but where I live it's a common sentiment that this is a big difference between children's and adult's media: Children might be taught directly through a story, but adults don't want a moral lession, they want a story they can think about for themselves, to come to their own conclusions. It's even seen as disrespectful to shoehorn a moral into a story too obviously, because it's seen as insulting the reader's intelligence.

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

As for Galerion and Mannimarco, I never really saw them as polar opposites, at least not at the beginning, but it would definitely be interesting to see.
Did they start out like they are in ESO, or did events sort of drive them to become near polar opposites of each other?

It's more that lorebooks tend to depict them as such - specifically that one about their final battle... What was its name? I can't remember right now. Anyway, in Summerset we have flashback scenes about their time as students, and there it's obvious that they were really close friends, until Mannimarco began his journey into necromancy.

Edit: I never get the quote brackets right

*blinks* I somehow thought you were older than me! My tastes often run more towards older works, mostly fantasy stuff. I haven't really read any mainstream fiction in like 25 years? I read online fiction, and it can be just as good as the published stuff.

For the shows, I was one of the caretakers for my parents, and my mother LOVED watching shows, much like you, she preferred older stuff, but occasionally we would watch some of the new things, and I also like anime and do watch the occasional newer movie. Most of the stuff I have that I watch, outside of anime, is from 1980 and before, with the occasional series past that.

Yeah, here there is a difference between adult shows and childrens (my mother loved animated movies and the like), but honestly, some of the worst ones, though I have forgotten which shows exactly, were adult ones (as in not made for children, not explicitly adult :P), though some of the ones for children have gotten that bad.

I just remember the cartoons I had growing up, they had morals, but the morals were told through the story and the show basically wasn't just a pulpit to get preachy about whatever moral the producers/directors/writers wanted to show. I wish that it was only children's shows (for very young children, the shows I am talking about would be for preteens or young teens, not toddlers), but it isn't.

What I meant about Mannimarco and Galerian wasn't their relationship, but rather their personalities and views. I know we had that scene where they were shown to be friends (and more. That is my story and I am sticking to it!)

I was thinking that could it have been possible that they started out more alike and trying to figure out how to deal with various problems or the various problems that they had to deal with just made them take two different approaches, ones that would put them almost completely at the opposite ends of the spectrum?

I have seen that used in various places, where two people were close friends in childhood, but as they grew, they became interested in completely opposite things, or they needed a solution to a problem, and both came up with their own solutions, but those ways put them at odds with each other.

metheglyn · May 17

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Before Summerset, I really wasn't aware that they knew each other beyond the level of "two powerful Altmer who had probably run across one another from time to time." Those glimpses we get of their friendship made me more interested in both of them, and I also got the impression that it wasn't just friendship.

I'd somehow really appreciate if ZOS would confirm that - through well-written background lore, of course. They had lots of LGBT characters in ESO so far, but never someone really central (I mean, Pelinal and Huna were lovers, but in Oblivion it was toned down very much - which reminds me how different those times still were - , and I don't think in ESO there's more info on that?). I want to be honest: I'd be curious whether ZOS "dares" to or whether they'd be afraid of a backlash (where I live, it's not a big risk anymore, no one really cares, but I'm not sure about other places). In case of Mannimarco and Galerion it would work well, it would not contradict established lore, it would not feel artificial, but just like elaborating on lore we already have. Also, it would make their story more tragic

(And it would explain why they never had a relationship with anyone ever again - unless Wormblood is Mannimarco's son, which I'd find rather weird. Or wait, maybe it's an evil Galerion clone, cloned from a lock of hair that Mannimarco secretly cut off while Galerion was sleeping - evil Galerion! How... original And horrible. Well, that would all be much too silly for my taste.)

I agree that it would be nice to have confirmation and that it does make their story more tragic, particularly since Mannimarco is irredeemable.

Silly clone ideas aside (I did get a good chuckle out of that), what about the idea that Mannimarco recruited another Altmer in an attempt to try to replace some of what he had with Galerion? If I remember correctly about the flashbacks, he seemed utterly unprepared for Galerion's reaction, and so maybe he went actively looking for another talented Altmer mage who would collaborate with him.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

And yes, please, to more about Sotha Sil! That one quest in Clockwork where you have to help the astronomer restore the constellations of his memories is fascinating to me because of the snippets we get of Sotha Sil's life. Frustrating too, though, because it is just snippets and not necessarily in any particular order.

There's a written collection of all those snippets, at least:
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Mnemonic_Planisphere#Stars

Apart from the memory stars, there's also those "memories" or "dreams" the factotums have, there's also a list of that on UESP:
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Factotum_Dialogue

But I think this list is incomplete? Weren't factotums sometimes having "errors" where they utter rather disturbing phrases? "Burning houses, crashed roof" and things like that? Or more precisely the last memories of someone, possibly Sil's sister, who was murdered during the attack on Ald Sotha. My theory is that he soul-trapped her and tried to "revive" her in a factotum, just like he later tried it with the Saints you see in Asylum Sanctorium, but since it was probably his earliest attempt, the only thing that was successfully preserved were some of her memories.

It's a horribly sad and dark story, but really good story-telling. I was fascinated how much they made of Sotha Sil who didn't have that much lore back in TES3. I always hoped the quality would remain on that level.

Thanks for those links! I do recall reading somewhere in Clockwork the idea that the factotums uttered phrases that were thought to come from Sil's sister, which did make hearing those phrases that much more meaningful. They weren't all disturbing, though. Some were like "raindrops on the roof" or other disconnected phrases that weren't about the Ald Sotha attack. It is a dark story, and part of the reason why I like Clockwork City so much as a zone, and love Sotha Sil for the complexity of his character.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

If it is an act he's putting on, that would make me like him more. The book about his childhood certainly gave me a different view on him the first time I read it, and while there's no doubt his achievements are impressive, having him remind me of it plays to my worst impulse of knocking him down a peg or two and reminding him about that time in Coldharbour when I had to free him.

I mean, we don't know. Having had a hard past doesn't necessarily make everyone humble. It's possible he remembers those days and only tries to seem aloof (and as that basically invulnerable). Or maybe he doesn't.

I think we're unlikely to ever really know Galerion on a deep, personal level. His relationship with Mannimarco might have spurred him on to keep himself aloof. Or maybe his childhood. All we can really go on is how he behaves in game, to us and others. He's definitely an interesting character, but I don't much like him as he is presented in quests.

Syldras · May 17

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

*blinks* I somehow thought you were older than me!

People usually think I'm in my late 40's or so. They've been thinking that since I've written my first posts online which was when I was 13

Yes, I've always been like this; although nowadays I tend to babble more. Which might make me seem even a bit older by now.

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

I just remember the cartoons I had growing up, they had morals, but the morals were told through the story and the show basically wasn't just a pulpit to get preachy about whatever moral the producers/directors/writers wanted to show. I wish that it was only children's shows (for very young children, the shows I am talking about would be for preteens or young teens, not toddlers), but it isn't.

From my childhood, I remember He-Man. Or let's say I remember that every episode ended with a message directed at the audience (don't use violence, don't try drugs, sleep regularly, etc); I didn't watch it often, because I hated the obvious lecture

But other kids seemed to like it, and from today's perspective I have to say it were actually good advices at least. For a children's show it seems appropriate to me. The horrible thing is that I sometimes get the feeling that media intended for adults is often just as lecturing now.

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

What I meant about Mannimarco and Galerian wasn't their relationship, but rather their personalities and views. I know we had that scene where they were shown to be friends (and more. That is my story and I am sticking to it!)
I was thinking that could it have been possible that they started out more alike and trying to figure out how to deal with various problems or the various problems that they had to deal with just made them take two different approaches, ones that would put them almost completely at the opposite ends of the spectrum?
I have seen that used in various places, where two people were close friends in childhood, but as they grew, they became interested in completely opposite things, or they needed a solution to a problem, and both came up with their own solutions, but those ways put them at odds with each other.

I just checked out of curiosity how long they might have known each other; if Galerion's background info is true, he moved to Artaeum when he was 11. So it probably have been a few years indeed. Or maybe not. What's the usual age to get into necromancy?

metheglyn wrote: »

Silly clone ideas aside (I did get a good chuckle out of that), what about the idea that Mannimarco recruited another Altmer in an attempt to try to replace some of what he had with Galerion? If I remember correctly about the flashbacks, he seemed utterly unprepared for Galerion's reaction, and so maybe he went actively looking for another talented Altmer mage who would collaborate with him.

If Galerion hears of that, there will be even more drama.

Possible. I could actually think of several different interesting explanations for who Wormblood might be; but I'm slightly wary that what we'll finally get might be... less intriguing. So far my most probable guess, based on the latest article, is lich-ified Mannimarco. I mean, come on: "Wormblood" wears a mask and only whispers; doesn't that call for a super "surprising" "plot twist" where he takes off his mask and we see - gasp! - Mannimarco just with glowy crownstore eyes and slightly malnourished?

metheglyn · May 17

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Silly clone ideas aside (I did get a good chuckle out of that), what about the idea that Mannimarco recruited another Altmer in an attempt to try to replace some of what he had with Galerion? If I remember correctly about the flashbacks, he seemed utterly unprepared for Galerion's reaction, and so maybe he went actively looking for another talented Altmer mage who would collaborate with him.

If Galerion hears of that, there will be even more drama.

Possible. I could actually think of several different interesting explanations for who Wormblood might be; but I'm slightly wary that what we'll finally get might be... less intriguing. So far my most probable guess, based on the latest article, is lich-ified Mannimarco.

I think disappointment of varying degrees is the risk we take when we speculate our hearts out about possible storylines. I did get a strong "Mannimarco in disguise" feeling from reading the article, but on thinking it over more I wondered what would be his motivation for being in disguise.

I don't doubt he has one; I just couldn't think of what it could be.

Edit to add: I went and read up a bit on Mannimarco and since it seems it isn't clear when exactly he became a lich, maybe we're getting that lore here.

Syldras · May 17

metheglyn wrote: »

I think disappointment of varying degrees is the risk we take when we speculate our hearts out about possible storylines. I did get a strong "Mannimarco in disguise" feeling from reading the article, but on thinking it over more I wondered what would be his motivation for being in disguise.
I don't doubt he has one; I just couldn't think of what it could be.

So the audience will get some surprising plot twist.

Maybe he doesn't want the vestige or any other potential dangers to learn of his return too early?

metheglyn wrote: »

Edit to add: I went and read up a bit on Mannimarco and since it seems it isn't clear when exactly he became a lich, maybe we're getting that lore here.

Maybe that's the big surprise: He already was one when we defeated him, he might just not have looked like one because the transformation was still fresh (or who knows, maybe lich of immense power do look very close to normal mortals)? I mean, as far as I know, a lich transfers their soul to an item - and in case of destruction of their body they will somehow be revived through it? Would that be a way to escape Coldharbour?

Also, lich seem to need souls to conserve and strengthen their power. Those soul-harvesting jubilee cake toppers might just be the right thing for that

JemadarofCaerSalis · May 17

Syldras wrote: »

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

*blinks* I somehow thought you were older than me!

People usually think I'm in my late 40's or so. They've been thinking that since I've written my first posts online which was when I was 13 Yes, I've always been like this; although nowadays I tend to babble more. Which might make me seem even a bit older by now.

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

I just remember the cartoons I had growing up, they had morals, but the morals were told through the story and the show basically wasn't just a pulpit to get preachy about whatever moral the producers/directors/writers wanted to show. I wish that it was only children's shows (for very young children, the shows I am talking about would be for preteens or young teens, not toddlers), but it isn't.

From my childhood, I remember He-Man. Or let's say I remember that every episode ended with a message directed at the audience (don't use violence, don't try drugs, sleep regularly, etc); I didn't watch it often, because I hated the obvious lecture But other kids seemed to like it, and from today's perspective I have to say it were actually good advices at least. For a children's show it seems appropriate to me. The horrible thing is that I sometimes get the feeling that media intended for adults is often just as lecturing now.

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

What I meant about Mannimarco and Galerian wasn't their relationship, but rather their personalities and views. I know we had that scene where they were shown to be friends (and more. That is my story and I am sticking to it!)
I was thinking that could it have been possible that they started out more alike and trying to figure out how to deal with various problems or the various problems that they had to deal with just made them take two different approaches, ones that would put them almost completely at the opposite ends of the spectrum?
I have seen that used in various places, where two people were close friends in childhood, but as they grew, they became interested in completely opposite things, or they needed a solution to a problem, and both came up with their own solutions, but those ways put them at odds with each other.

I just checked out of curiosity how long they might have known each other; if Galerion's background info is true, he moved to Artaeum when he was 11. So it probably have been a few years indeed. Or maybe not. What's the usual age to get into necromancy?

metheglyn wrote: »

Silly clone ideas aside (I did get a good chuckle out of that), what about the idea that Mannimarco recruited another Altmer in an attempt to try to replace some of what he had with Galerion? If I remember correctly about the flashbacks, he seemed utterly unprepared for Galerion's reaction, and so maybe he went actively looking for another talented Altmer mage who would collaborate with him.

If Galerion hears of that, there will be even more drama.

Possible. I could actually think of several different interesting explanations for who Wormblood might be; but I'm slightly wary that what we'll finally get might be... less intriguing. So far my most probable guess, based on the latest article, is lich-ified Mannimarco. I mean, come on: "Wormblood" wears a mask and only whispers; doesn't that call for a super "surprising" "plot twist" where he takes off his mask and we see - gasp! - Mannimarco just with glowy crownstore eyes and slightly malnourished?

Yeah, I watched some of he-man, but most of the cartoons I watched the lessons just seemed less blatant, or were restricted to like a minute at the end of the show.

it could be he always had an interest in Necromancy, but it was never about actually practicing necromancy, or at least Galerian thought it wasn't about that.

Syldras · May 17

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

it could be he always had an interest in Necromancy, but it was never about actually practicing necromancy, or at least Galerian thought it wasn't about that.

I'm not sure whether Altmer society would allow that even in theory. On the one hand, learning is valued. On the other hand, necromancy is unhygienic.

metheglyn · May 17

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I think disappointment of varying degrees is the risk we take when we speculate our hearts out about possible storylines. I did get a strong "Mannimarco in disguise" feeling from reading the article, but on thinking it over more I wondered what would be his motivation for being in disguise.
I don't doubt he has one; I just couldn't think of what it could be.

So the audience will get some surprising plot twist.

Maybe he doesn't want the vestige or any other potential dangers to learn of his return too early?

Perhaps. I'm weighing that reason against his sense of self; that is, would he really care if anyone knew, or see them as much of a threat? I mean, the vestige may have beaten him once, but maybe from his perspective that was just luck and so forth.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Edit to add: I went and read up a bit on Mannimarco and since it seems it isn't clear when exactly he became a lich, maybe we're getting that lore here.

Maybe that's the big surprise: He already was one when we defeated him, he might just not have looked like one because the transformation was still fresh (or who knows, maybe lich of immense power do look very close to normal mortals)? I mean, as far as I know, a lich transfers their soul to an item - and in case of destruction of their body they will somehow be revived through it? Would that be a way to escape Coldharbour?

Also, lich seem to need souls to conserve and strengthen their power. Those soul-harvesting jubilee cake toppers might just be the right thing for that

I wouldn't put anything past Mannimarco, including duping us all into eating cake that somehow powers him.

On another note, since you, I, and @JemadarofCaerSalis all think there was more to Mannimarco and Galerion's relationship than just friendship, can we declare it canon? Three is enough of a majority for that, right?

Syldras · May 17

metheglyn wrote: »

Perhaps. I'm weighing that reason against his sense of self; that is, would he really care if anyone knew, or see them as much of a threat? I mean, the vestige may have beaten him once, but maybe from his perspective that was just luck and so forth.

I think he'd probably be someone who enjoyed secretly plotting his revenge and then to strike without warning.

That would actually be a fun concept for once: You're not trying to hunt down the evil antigonist, he comes for you. Of course I doubt that we'll see that happen.

metheglyn wrote: »

On another note, since you, I, and @JemadarofCaerSalis all think there was more to Mannimarco and Galerion's relationship than just friendship, can we declare it canon? Three is enough of a majority for that, right?

I know another 2 people who agree, so we're already 5. At least.

SpaceElf · May 17

metheglyn wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I think disappointment of varying degrees is the risk we take when we speculate our hearts out about possible storylines. I did get a strong "Mannimarco in disguise" feeling from reading the article, but on thinking it over more I wondered what would be his motivation for being in disguise.
I don't doubt he has one; I just couldn't think of what it could be.

So the audience will get some surprising plot twist.

Maybe he doesn't want the vestige or any other potential dangers to learn of his return too early?

Perhaps. I'm weighing that reason against his sense of self; that is, would he really care if anyone knew, or see them as much of a threat? I mean, the vestige may have beaten him once, but maybe from his perspective that was just luck and so forth.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Edit to add: I went and read up a bit on Mannimarco and since it seems it isn't clear when exactly he became a lich, maybe we're getting that lore here.

Maybe that's the big surprise: He already was one when we defeated him, he might just not have looked like one because the transformation was still fresh (or who knows, maybe lich of immense power do look very close to normal mortals)? I mean, as far as I know, a lich transfers their soul to an item - and in case of destruction of their body they will somehow be revived through it? Would that be a way to escape Coldharbour?

Also, lich seem to need souls to conserve and strengthen their power. Those soul-harvesting jubilee cake toppers might just be the right thing for that

I wouldn't put anything past Mannimarco, including duping us all into eating cake that somehow powers him.

On another note, since you, I, and @JemadarofCaerSalis all think there was more to Mannimarco and Galerion's relationship than just friendship, can we declare it canon? Three is enough of a majority for that, right?

I lean in that direction personally but I still haven't seen true canon evidence of anything beyond friendship between them. If I am recalling the main quest correctly (done many years ago) thinking back on Galerion's extreme lengths to stop him the first time implies at the very least, they know each other very well. Or rather, Galerion knows what Mannimarco is very capable and willing to do.

I don't think he was a yet a lich after the MQ concluded, I don't think he mentioned it. I doubt Mannimarco would, of course, but Abnur would likely have caught a whiff of it if he was concurrently planning lichdom with the planemeld. But if his plan were to originally depose Molag Bal, why would he attempt it at that point?

Ilsabet · May 17

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Edit to add: I went and read up a bit on Mannimarco and since it seems it isn't clear when exactly he became a lich, maybe we're getting that lore here.

Maybe that's the big surprise: He already was one when we defeated him, he might just not have looked like one because the transformation was still fresh (or who knows, maybe lich of immense power do look very close to normal mortals)? I mean, as far as I know, a lich transfers their soul to an item - and in case of destruction of their body they will somehow be revived through it? Would that be a way to escape Coldharbour?

If Mannimarco is involved in the upcoming story in some way, it'll be interesting to see how ZOS handles the "might have been released vs. might still be imprisoned in Coldharbour" dichotomy that the base game MQ left us with. For Vestiges who released him, has his soul been running around somewhere since then? Could he have already been working on finding a new body and/or lichifying himself? And if so, how would that be reconciled with Vestiges who left him where they found him?

For that matter, was he even technically dead? As I recall,

we sort of killed him in Sancre Tor, but he was like "lol noob I got necromancy hax" until Molag Bal showed up and was big mad and yoinked him away to Coldharbour. We saw his soul again, so some aspect of him was still around, but I wonder if that was enough to consider him still alive.

Okay I checked UESP and when we find him in Coldharbour he says he's neither alive nor dead, so that's good and vague.

Zodiarkslayer · May 17

So called "Bad Guys" in ESO are not genuine, anymore. These days, you are literally always told: They are evil! They are your enemy!
But do you get to experience that? No.
Do you see them committing evil deeds? No.
You are the hero and always deny them just in time.

One of the reasons why the earlier DLCs are regarded so well, is because they actually show you what the antagonists do to earn that title. You get to decide what they are. Are they evil, are they misguided, are they just greedy? That's the players assessment.

Ever since Elsweyr you basically get told what in the earlier stories you were able to assess yourself. It is almost disenfranchising. Eat it or leave it. And it has become worse over time.

I mean, take Necrom as an example. The very first words that Leramil utters to you already hammer in that you are the proxy of fate, chosen by the gods, you can't fail, because ... reasons.
No explanation why you are chosen, what connects you to fate or Hermaeus Mora or whatever. Just like that. Boom. You are the hero.

And then the next thing is: There are the bad guys, let's go!
After that you simply play out what has been established in the very first dialogue. No development. No unexpected changes.
Everything is just so stale.

Finedaible · May 17

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

So called "Bad Guys" in ESO are not genuine, anymore. These days, you are literally always told: They are evil! They are your enemy!
But do you get to experience that? No.
Do you see them committing evil deeds? No.
You are the hero and always deny them just in time.

One of the reasons why the earlier DLCs are regarded so well, is because they actually show you what the antagonists do to earn that title. You get to decide what they are. Are they evil, are they misguided, are they just greedy? That's the players assessment.

Ever since Elsweyr you basically get told what in the earlier stories you were able to assess yourself. It is almost disenfranchising. Eat it or leave it. And it has become worse over time.

I mean, take Necrom as an example. The very first words that Leramil utters to you already hammer in that you are the proxy of fate, chosen by the gods, you can't fail, because ... reasons.
No explanation why you are chosen, what connects you to fate or Hermaeus Mora or whatever. Just like that. Boom. You are the hero.

And then the next thing is: There are the bad guys, let's go!
After that you simply play out what has been established in the very first dialogue. No development. No unexpected changes.
Everything is just so stale.

And this highlights a lot of my annoyance with ESO's writing lately. You never get to discover the story from the limited scope of your character anymore since every NPC is now a mega info-dump trying to summarize everything that is happening everywhere like they have some uncanny omniscience. NPCs straight up tell you where to go and what you should do without any player agency. It's just Point A to point B, with any perceived options (if any) leading to the exact same outcome. One of the things I loved about TES 3 is that you were small, insignificant, and limited in a daunting world, but then you gradually piece together the stories and what exactly is going on as you explore it.

JemadarofCaerSalis · May 17

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Perhaps. I'm weighing that reason against his sense of self; that is, would he really care if anyone knew, or see them as much of a threat? I mean, the vestige may have beaten him once, but maybe from his perspective that was just luck and so forth.

I think he'd probably be someone who enjoyed secretly plotting his revenge and then to strike without warning.

That would actually be a fun concept for once: You're not trying to hunt down the evil antigonist, he comes for you. Of course I doubt that we'll see that happen.

metheglyn wrote: »

On another note, since you, I, and @JemadarofCaerSalis all think there was more to Mannimarco and Galerion's relationship than just friendship, can we declare it canon? Three is enough of a majority for that, right?

I know another 2 people who agree, so we're already 5. At least.

I am willing to declare it canon!

Syldras wrote: »

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

it could be he always had an interest in Necromancy, but it was never about actually practicing necromancy, or at least Galerian thought it wasn't about that.

I'm not sure whether Altmer society would allow that even in theory. On the one hand, learning is valued. On the other hand, necromancy is unhygienic.

It doesn't necessarily have to be Altmer Society, but just Galerion who knew about the necromancy interest. Maybe Mannimarco had said something about being able to apply some of the concepts to other schools of magic? Or wanted to learn healing magic and felt there was some application related to that? Basically it could be as simple as Galerion knew but thought the interest was harmless, and then eventually realized, it wasn't.

But, by then it was too late, and both their paths were set.

metheglyn · May 17

SpaceElf wrote: »

I lean in that direction personally but I still haven't seen true canon evidence of anything beyond friendship between them. If I am recalling the main quest correctly (done many years ago) thinking back on Galerion's extreme lengths to stop him the first time implies at the very least, they know each other very well. Or rather, Galerion knows what Mannimarco is very capable and willing to do.

I don't think he was a yet a lich after the MQ concluded, I don't think he mentioned it. I doubt Mannimarco would, of course, but Abnur would likely have caught a whiff of it if he was concurrently planning lichdom with the planemeld. But if his plan were to originally depose Molag Bal, why would he attempt it at that point?

Yeah, I haven't seen any evidence either, but I wish they would clarify it in some way. Not some announcement or anything, but through the story--more flashbacks like we had in Summerset or something similar. To me, it definitely comes across that there's more to their relationship than just friendship, so since we have no confirmation either way, I'm going with it.

The idea that he might be a lich never occurred to me when we defeated him, but then I also wasn't aware at that time that he does eventually become one. As far as why he would become a lich when his plan was to ascend to godhood anyway: I'm guessing power. For him, it seems to be about power no matter what.

Ilsabet wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Edit to add: I went and read up a bit on Mannimarco and since it seems it isn't clear when exactly he became a lich, maybe we're getting that lore here.

Maybe that's the big surprise: He already was one when we defeated him, he might just not have looked like one because the transformation was still fresh (or who knows, maybe lich of immense power do look very close to normal mortals)? I mean, as far as I know, a lich transfers their soul to an item - and in case of destruction of their body they will somehow be revived through it? Would that be a way to escape Coldharbour?

If Mannimarco is involved in the upcoming story in some way, it'll be interesting to see how ZOS handles the "might have been released vs. might still be imprisoned in Coldharbour" dichotomy that the base game MQ left us with. For Vestiges who released him, has his soul been running around somewhere since then? Could he have already been working on finding a new body and/or lichifying himself? And if so, how would that be reconciled with Vestiges who left him where they found him?

For that matter, was he even technically dead? As I recall,
we sort of killed him in Sancre Tor, but he was like "lol noob I got necromancy hax" until Molag Bal showed up and was big mad and yoinked him away to Coldharbour. We saw his soul again, so some aspect of him was still around, but I wonder if that was enough to consider him still alive.

Okay I checked UESP and when we find him in Coldharbour he says he's neither alive nor dead, so that's good and vague.

I'm guessing they reconcile it similarly to how they "reconciled" the vestige choosing to sacrifice either Lyris or Sai in the main quest. Some vague mention and then, boom, off into the story.

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

That would actually be a fun concept for once: You're not trying to hunt down the evil antigonist, he comes for you. Of course I doubt that we'll see that happen.

I do like the idea of that. You're just out and about, doing your thing, and bad guy comes for you. We'd be playing defense for once instead of murderous offense.

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

I am willing to declare it canon!

With @SpaceElf we're up to at least six! That makes it official!

Syldras · May 17

metheglyn wrote: »

we're up to at least six! That makes it official!

Is there a petition we can send to ZOS?

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

It doesn't necessarily have to be Altmer Society, but just Galerion who knew about the necromancy interest. Maybe Mannimarco had said something about being able to apply some of the concepts to other schools of magic? Or wanted to learn healing magic and felt there was some application related to that? Basically it could be as simple as Galerion knew but thought the interest was harmless, and then eventually realized, it wasn't.
But, by then it was too late, and both their paths were set.

I keep wondering where Galerion might have his mindset from. Not wanting to excuse the horribly smelling art of necromancy now (I mean, I see a few practical cases - forcing a dead spirit to materialize to question them would count as necromancy, no? - but in general it's not very friendly to make thralls out of people, I dont' dispute that), but the way Galerion is described as overly good just comes across as a little strange to me - if it is true. No flaws? Supermoralistic even in his puberty (I'd assume what we see in Artaeum is a flashback to their teen years)? He was picked up from the streets, so I see he would be grateful - or maybe he was afraid of having to leave again in case he disobeys in any way? Or maybe he was very intensely indoctrinated because he had no one else who could have shown him any different perspective?

Syldras · May 17

Reports claim that Wormblood now carries Mannimarco’s own Staff of Worms, a powerful symbol of authority within the cult.

Where did that thing go at the end of the main quest?

spartaxoxo · May 17

Finedaible wrote: »

One of the things I loved about TES 3 is that you were small, insignificant, and limited in a daunting world, but then you gradually piece together the stories and what exactly is going on as you explore it.

I mean the very first thing we learn in tes 4, before we even learn the identity of our enemy, is that we're chosen by the gods and the emperor has seen us in his dreams. We're only alive because the emperor saw that.

spartaxoxo · May 17

metheglyn wrote: »

With SpaceElf we're up to at least six! That makes it official!

If they were former lovers, that would make Mannimarco's ultimate possession of Galerian's corpse far worse.

Syldras · May 17

spartaxoxo wrote: »

If they were former lovers, that would make Mannimarco's ultimate possession of Galerian's corpse far worse.

Definitely. But it would fit his obsession and his conviction that he's above all laws.

And it would really make him an evil character, not just one of these cardboard characters you kill at the end of every chapter just for the next one to arrive a year later.

metheglyn · May 17

spartaxoxo wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

With SpaceElf we're up to at least six! That makes it official!

If they were former lovers, that would make Mannimarco's ultimate possession of Galerian's corpse far worse.

Agreed! And it does fit thematically with Mannimarco's seeming philosophy that nothing is too much and no step goes too far.