The writing for the upcoming story content - some thoughts on the latest news article

Syldras · May 15

So I just read the newest news piece on the ESO website about the writing for the upcoming chapter story content. There's a paragraph I'd find especially interesting to discuss:

It’s no secret that the nefarious Worm Cult has returned. The band of necromancers, formerly led by the Worm King Mannimarco, now plagues the island of Solstice.
“I love the Worm Cult because they’re over-the-top bad guys,” says Baker. “As they say, every villain is the hero of their own story, however misguided it might be. However, the Worm Cult is a different kind of villain. They’re irredeemable, power-mad megalomaniacs. You never have to ask yourself if it’s right for you to stop them, because they want bad things for bad reasons. That’s fun!”
“They’re just so serious about their goals and their mission,” says Slavicsek. “And they’re utterly evil. How could we not find a way to bring them back to the forefront for the anniversary story? We’ve even added some new faces to their ranks that I think the players are just going to love to hate.”

Source: https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/68079

So: What do you think?

My first thought is that I never ever cared whether a "baddie" in a story is "hateable". I don't play a game to hate someone - it doesn't even work with me in a fictional story, to be honest, especially if the character is a one-dimensional "Look, this is the evil baddie!" "placeholder" character - someone who has to be there because you have to defeat someone in a combat-focused game.

And that's the next problem: I actually find "evil for the sake of evil" characters really boring most of the time. They don't feel meaningful, they feel like they're just some gadget that has to be there so you have an enemy in the story, but they can basically be trashed once their purpose is fulfilled, and then they can just be forgotten without ever resurfacing again. It also doesn't help me taking the story seriously. If the characters feel random, how can the story feel impactful?

I'd rather see multi-faceted characters, no matter if "good" or "evil" ones, that make me think about their deeds and their motivations and that somehow make an emotional impact. Because in the end that's what makes a story interesting and keeps it in your memory - the emotional moments. I don't say a story that heavily stereotypes and has the shining good knightly hero on the one side, and the evil world-ending puppy-kicking blood-drinking baddie on the other side, can't be amusing for a while - but you basically just consume it for your amusement once, maybe laugh about it for a moment, and then...? It's basically the literary equivalent of fast food. You may like it once in a while, it might even taste good, but should we see it as the high standard to strive to?

Another quote, from the same article, about the new dialogue choices:

“Personally, I’m really enjoying the opportunity to provide the player with some sassy or humorous choices in the right moments,” says Baker. “People crack jokes in the face of serious situations all the time—it’s one of the ways we confront danger and uncertainty. And everybody occasionally wants to indulge the impulse to say something you’d never say in real life.”

I know people are different, so I can only speak for myself of course, but "doing something funny I would never dare to do in real life" was never any of the ideas I had in mind when I - and I did that several times over the last decade - mentioned in the forums that I would love to have more different dialogue choices.

What I thought of was being able to roleplay my characters "realistically", as the persons I imagine them to be. Some may be law-abiding and friendly, other might be quite daring and bold and say rather risky things at times - but I had playing them as people in mind, the way I imagine them in the world of Tamriel, and not something like "Let's give the crassest comment possible to have a laugh".

So I really hope this doesn't mean these dialogue options were designed with having a quip fest in mind, but actually as imagining what people with different character traits might actually say or do in a situation. And give us a realistic reaction to that, too. We'll see.

So, these are my thoughts so far. Maybe someone else wants to share theirs on the topic of story and dialogue writing in ESO - what they like, what they dislike, what they wish for the future, etc.

Just to make sure: Tastes, habits and expectations differ - and that's fine. Please don't attack any person about it, neither the writers nor the posters here. I don't want to discuss people, I want to discuss ESO's writing - whether people enjoy it, what they would like to see, what ideas they might have... I also think it would be interesting to see if there are differences between cultures, as I think certain styles of writing might work better in some literary traditions than in others.

Just tagging you @ArchangelIsraphel because I think you might find this interesting. If you're busy or don't feel like writing right now, it's absolutely fine; I just want to make sure you don't miss the thread in case you're interested in participating.

spartaxoxo · May 15

I like the occasional bad guy. When any type of bad guy becomes overly used, including complex ones, then I start to get bored.

ESO has had plenty of complex villains and some not so complex ones. Molag Bal is pretty evil. His realm might be gray but he is not. Kilgrave and Walter White are both very enjoyable, well-written (for what they are) and memorable. I have not played Gold Road so maybe I'm wrong but it feels it's been a while since we got a villain that was completely irredeemable.

Desiato · May 15

They've been going down the path of Disney for a while now. I don't think it's even possible for TES to be edgy or nuanced anymore.

Syldras · May 15

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Molag Bal is pretty evil. His realm might be gray but he is not.

Measured by human/mortal standards, he's very evil of course. But I can't really hate him because from my point of view, he's no person and has no free will. He's the personification of a concept, and can only do what he's supposed to do. You can't tell fire not to burn, and it's the same with Molag Bal, he's a force of nature, or of the cosmos, in a way. I can't really feel anger about what he does, the same way I can't feel anger towards lightning for striking and burning down a house, or towards water for people drowning in it. That's my interpretation of the Daedric Princes, at least.

Desiato wrote: »

They've been going down the path of Disney for a while now. I don't think it's even possible for TES to be edgy or nuanced anymore.

Sadly, I have the same impression. I still hope for a change in direction, and think that especially the continuation of the main storyline would have been a good occasion for that.

metheglyn · May 15

For me, one-note characters don't really work well. That's a large part of why I really don't like most of the Daedric Princes. I understand they're bound by their personification and so can't show nuance; it's just that I find that dull at best and irritating at worst. One exception is Azura, who seems to have a shade of nuance to her; or, at least, doesn't come across so terribly one-note as the others.

As for the Worm Cult, I'd just as soon not see them again. For me it makes sense that the leader of the cult would be megalomaniacal, and would draw some like-minded people to their side, but the cult is too big and too widespread for me to believe that every member is like that. Since the members of the cult are, by and large, not Daedra but human and mer and beast folk who do have free will, why are they all the same? Again, there's no nuance to the cult or its members and that doesn't really interest me.

On the matter of the new dialogue choices, this was something I was really looking forward to, because for too long the player character has come across as bland and kind of stupid. I wasn't all that impressed with the taste I had of this system in the prologue quest.

While on the one hand it was nice to see the options and consider which one best suited my character, on the other hand the way it played out, and the way the npcs reacted to them, didn't really seem to match with the choices. It felt like Vanus Galerion was going to say the same thing no matter what you said to him and so, in the end, it just didn't matter what you said. That's kind of the opposite of how I wanted dialogue choices to work.

I'm not expecting some elaborate different conversational path or drastically altered quest based on dialogue choices, but I was hoping for it to mean something when I chose one over the other. Of course, it's possible an MMO just can't support that kind of RPG writing.

Syldras · May 16

metheglyn wrote: »

For me, one-note characters don't really work well. That's a large part of why I really don't like most of the Daedric Princes. I understand they're bound by their personification and so can't show nuance; it's just that I find that dull at best and irritating at worst. One exception is Azura, who seems to have a shade of nuance to her; or, at least, doesn't come across so terribly one-note as the others.

What I like about them is that many have a concept that can be interpreted negatively as well as positively - and that this is, at times, also shown in lore. Take lies and deceit as a topic, for example: A lie can be used to harm someone, but it can also be the thing that saves you in a dangerous situation. Or destruction: It can do harm, of course, but on the other hand there is no change for the better without destruction of the old either. That said, I don't really consider the Daedric Princes enemies in the stories. I mean, story-wise they are, but the true evil are the cultists involved, because they do have a free will unlike the Princes.

metheglyn wrote: »

As for the Worm Cult, I'd just as soon not see them again. For me it makes sense that the leader of the cult would be megalomaniacal, and would draw some like-minded people to their side, but the cult is too big and too widespread for me to believe that every member is like that. Since the members of the cult are, by and large, not Daedra but human and mer and beast folk who do have free will, why are they all the same? Again, there's no nuance to the cult or its members and that doesn't really interest me.

Actually that would have been a more interesting direction in writing, from my point of view: What are the motivations for individual cultists in participating in that? What Mannimarco gets from it - we know that. But why do other people join, what do they hope for, is there a philosophy behind it and what's appealing about it? That would, of course, be the exact opposite of making everyone just evil for the sake of being evil.

metheglyn wrote: »

On the matter of the new dialogue choices, this was something I was really looking forward to, because for too long the player character has come across as bland and kind of stupid. I wasn't all that impressed with the taste I had of this system in the prologue quest.
While on the one hand it was nice to see the options and consider which one best suited my character, on the other hand the way it played out, and the way the npcs reacted to them, didn't really seem to match with the choices. It felt like Vanus Galerion was going to say the same thing no matter what you said to him and so, in the end, it just didn't matter what you said. That's kind of the opposite of how I wanted dialogue choices to work.
I'm not expecting some elaborate different conversational path or drastically altered quest based on dialogue choices, but I was hoping for it to mean something when I chose one over the other. Of course, it's possible an MMO just can't support that kind of RPG writing.

I had the same impression while playing the prologue, unfortunately. I also found some choices extremely strange, not really fitting the situation or not even labeled correctly, and I actually found myself using the neutral option most of the time (which was really surprising to me, because I had absolutely not expected that), because the others all just weren't what my character would think or say. Maybe because many of them just didn't feel natural, but somehow over the top for the situation. It's a pity and I hope the "chapter" will be a positive surprise compared to the prologue (I'm just not sure whether I should really believe in that).

Soarora · May 16

I really like complex and emotionally impactful villains where you can at least see where they’re coming from. I’m not sure why anyone would join the Worm Cult. I don’t mind it being “they’re just evil” because it’s ESO’s villain and Mannimarco has some hefty lore for himself, but in general I more like villains such as Dagoth Ur and Vivec. You can see why people would follow them, you may even pity them, but you cannot excuse their present actions.

JemadarofCaerSalis · May 16

For me it really depends.

Sometimes, I do like the 'evil for evils sake' as I don't really want a redeemable villain all the time, and too often, stories these days, when they give characters backstories that are nuanced, often come across as 'it isn't his fault! he had a bad childhood' rather than 'he had a bad childhood, but he still made the wrong choices'.

Of course, it also depends on exactly how prominent these characters are. For someone like Mannimarco, who is prominent and pretty much *the* villain of the story, it makes sense for him to be much more nuanced than some of his lieutenants or the generic baddie that is trying to kill you all the time. Basically, if we aren't going to be seeing these characters time after time after time, then I feel it is fine for them to just be the type who 'wants to see the world burn'. The more likely we are to see them, the more nuanced I want them to be.

I think that may be one reason I am not fond of Laurent and Stibbons. No matter how many times we see them, they are still the same one-dimensional (to me) characters who are saying the same things (that stibbons is at fault/stibbons is bumbling/etc...) and we are having to get them out of the exact same types of trouble time after time after time. Having a one dimensional character can work if you are only going to run into them once or twice, but the more often you run into them, the more you realize how much depth they lack, which is why recurring characters should be much more fleshed out.

As for the dialogue choices, well, these types of games rarely have the responses I would give, so I wasn't expecting much from the dialogue, especially since, for the most part, everything has to end up in pretty much the same place.

it wouldn't make sense for me to tell an annoying character what exactly they can do with their request, when the offshoot is that I am going to take the quest anyway and follow them around like a well trained dog. Even single player games often have this same issue, because they can't really program in thousands of lines of dialogue for just one single quest outcome.

I, do, however, share the concerns that everything is going to become a 'quip', because, and this goes back to the first topic, it starts becoming one dimensional. One liners and quips CAN be funny, but typically only if they are used sparingly and not the entire personality of the character. (at least in my opinion)

scrappy1342 · May 16

metheglyn wrote: »

I'm not expecting some elaborate different conversational path or drastically altered quest based on dialogue choices, but I was hoping for it to mean something when I chose one over the other. Of course, it's possible an MMO just can't support that kind of RPG writing.

palia has a really neat system for quests and responses. there's 4 main elements in the game. not everything you get to respond to gets 4 different responses, but a lot of them do. i don't remember the exact details, but wind is humorous and spontaneous, fire is quick, speak before they think sort of responses, water is laid back. every time you get a choice in a dialogue, there is an element associated with it. it doesn't make a huge amount of difference, like it's not going to lock you out of anything if you end up with fire personality over water, but it just adds something to those choices. some characters will respond differently to you depending on your personality. there's a few quests where there are furniture rewards and what style furniture you get will be themed with that element. you can see your stats on your character screen and you can change your responses to go one way or another if you really want your character to be fire but end up making a lot of wind choices.

would be interesting to see something similar in eso but use the divines instead of elements. of course there can't be 8 different responses to everything, but palia doesn't do the full 4 on everything either.

Finedaible · May 16

One-dimensional villains are a bore, they often end up having no character depth and behaving like a cartoon.

The best antagonists within the Elder Scrolls franchise have often been somewhat relatable, or at least had motives you could understand even if everything they decided to do was immoral. The villain of Murkmire is a good example of this, you might actually feel a modicum of sympathy for their plight and why they sought out what they did. The Thieve's Guild's antagonist wasn't even a full-on villain in the typical sense since he was just another thief and wasn't really looking to kill anyone.

Since this topic is about the Worm Cult though, I feel obligated to point out that there was an important character in the base game zones who eventually joins the cult after working with you.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Aera_Earth-Turner

That tragic character also had development across the base zones and you got to witness the events that prompted them to join the cult. It shouldn't be all black and white for every character, sometimes it is despair, grief, hopelessness. If I wanted "over-the-top", I'd be playing Warhammer.

Syldras · May 16

Soarora wrote: »

I’m not sure why anyone would join the Worm Cult.

I can think of a few sociopathic reasons, but you'd hardly find masses of cultists with that mindset, and the Worm Cult is depicted as quite large. It's easier for me to imagine reasons to become a necromancer, but for supporting the Planemeld... not quite.

scrappy1342 wrote: »

would be interesting to see something similar in eso but use the divines instead of elements. of course there can't be 8 different responses to everything, but palia doesn't do the full 4 on everything either.

While what you describe sounds good, I'd rather not use the Divines for it. There are too many cultures in TES who do not "believe" in them, and I'd rather not have even more aspects about my character's background defined by the game.

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

Sometimes, I do like the 'evil for evils sake' as I don't really want a redeemable villain all the time, and too often, stories these days, when they give characters backstories that are nuanced, often come across as 'it isn't his fault! he had a bad childhood' rather than 'he had a bad childhood, but he still made the wrong choices'.

Oh, I don't want excuses either. Actually I'm really tired by this, as well as by that whole "redemption arc" thing where "unperfect" characters end up being "good ones" too, because some people seem to hate ambiguity or moral flaws.

But what I want to see is a motivation behind a character's behaviour, something that logically makes sense to me, even if it breaks my personal morals. If there's no plausible reason, the behaviour seems random which makes the story feel not serious to me. Motivations don't have to be positive, either. Hunger for power, spite or greed are motivations, too.

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

it wouldn't make sense for me to tell an annoying character what exactly they can do with their request, when the offshoot is that I am going to take the quest anyway and follow them around like a well trained dog.

The outcome could remain the same, but the other character's reaction should differ. Let's take the situation in the prologue where we have to work together with Galerion as an example: We could talk to him in a polite or even friendly way, and his reaction could, more or less, be just as respectful. Or we could insult him, then he should react angrily, but tell us, well, fine, come with me, we have to do this, but stay out of my way as much as possible. They could even put in some dialogue bit later where the situation gets less confrontational again after a while, so the anger slowly subsides.

metheglyn · May 16

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

For me, one-note characters don't really work well. That's a large part of why I really don't like most of the Daedric Princes. I understand they're bound by their personification and so can't show nuance; it's just that I find that dull at best and irritating at worst. One exception is Azura, who seems to have a shade of nuance to her; or, at least, doesn't come across so terribly one-note as the others.

What I like about them is that many have a concept that can be interpreted negatively as well as positively - and that this is, at times, also shown in lore. Take lies and deceit as a topic, for example: A lie can be used to harm someone, but it can also be the thing that saves you in a dangerous situation. Or destruction: It can do harm, of course, but on the other hand there is no change for the better without destruction of the old either. That said, I don't really consider the Daedric Princes enemies in the stories. I mean, story-wise they are, but the true evil are the cultists involved, because they do have a free will unlike the Princes.

That would be more interesting to me if it could be represented in game like that, but when we run across the Daedric Princes, it's all just one-note. But I'll admit I might not be giving them (and by extension the writing behind them) their due because I really don't like them.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

As for the Worm Cult, I'd just as soon not see them again. For me it makes sense that the leader of the cult would be megalomaniacal, and would draw some like-minded people to their side, but the cult is too big and too widespread for me to believe that every member is like that. Since the members of the cult are, by and large, not Daedra but human and mer and beast folk who do have free will, why are they all the same? Again, there's no nuance to the cult or its members and that doesn't really interest me.

Actually that would have been a more interesting direction in writing, from my point of view: What are the motivations for individual cultists in participating in that? What Mannimarco gets from it - we know that. But why do other people join, what do they hope for, is there a philosophy behind it and what's appealing about it? That would, of course, be the exact opposite of making everyone just evil for the sake of being evil.

That is kind of what I was getting at--why don't we see the motivations of the rank and file? I get that some people just want to watch the world burn or are just evil because why not, but so many? Yeah, I might have liked a Worm Cult redux if there was more to it than just "hey, we're bad! like, really bad!"

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

On the matter of the new dialogue choices, this was something I was really looking forward to, because for too long the player character has come across as bland and kind of stupid. I wasn't all that impressed with the taste I had of this system in the prologue quest.
While on the one hand it was nice to see the options and consider which one best suited my character, on the other hand the way it played out, and the way the npcs reacted to them, didn't really seem to match with the choices. It felt like Vanus Galerion was going to say the same thing no matter what you said to him and so, in the end, it just didn't matter what you said. That's kind of the opposite of how I wanted dialogue choices to work.
I'm not expecting some elaborate different conversational path or drastically altered quest based on dialogue choices, but I was hoping for it to mean something when I chose one over the other. Of course, it's possible an MMO just can't support that kind of RPG writing.

I had the same impression while playing the prologue, unfortunately. I also found some choices extremely strange, not really fitting the situation or not even labeled correctly, and I actually found myself using the neutral option most of the time (which was really surprising to me, because I had absolutely not expected that), because the others all just weren't what my character would think or say. Maybe because many of them just didn't feel natural, but somehow over the top for the situation. It's a pity and I hope the "chapter" will be a positive surprise compared to the prologue (I'm just not sure whether I should really believe in that).

I am also hoping for more from the main story, and perhaps the larger scope of it and longer length of it will provide more opportunities for dialogue choices. The prologue has a lot to do in a short time, and maybe that hampered it somewhat when it came to those choices.

scrappy1342 wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I'm not expecting some elaborate different conversational path or drastically altered quest based on dialogue choices, but I was hoping for it to mean something when I chose one over the other. Of course, it's possible an MMO just can't support that kind of RPG writing.

palia has a really neat system for quests and responses. there's 4 main elements in the game. not everything you get to respond to gets 4 different responses, but a lot of them do. i don't remember the exact details, but wind is humorous and spontaneous, fire is quick, speak before they think sort of responses, water is laid back. every time you get a choice in a dialogue, there is an element associated with it. it doesn't make a huge amount of difference, like it's not going to lock you out of anything if you end up with fire personality over water, but it just adds something to those choices. some characters will respond differently to you depending on your personality. there's a few quests where there are furniture rewards and what style furniture you get will be themed with that element. you can see your stats on your character screen and you can change your responses to go one way or another if you really want your character to be fire but end up making a lot of wind choices.

would be interesting to see something similar in eso but use the divines instead of elements. of course there can't be 8 different responses to everything, but palia doesn't do the full 4 on everything either.

I'm not familiar with Palia but that does sound like an interesting system. It really would be nice to have npcs react to my characters based more on their personality and less on just "oh, you're the one that did all those things!"

Freelancer_ESO · May 16

I think they are trying to vary things up a bit.

With High Isle, Necrom, and Gold Road we've had three stories in a row where at times the opposition was more appealing than the side we were actually fighting to help which could leave the player feeling like they were "Captain Status Quo".

One of the things I enjoyed especially on my alts in SWTOR was the funny lines. Obviously, you don't want it to be all humor but, occasionally going in that direction does help with being able to enjoy doing the content multiple times.

Syldras · May 16

metheglyn wrote: »

That would be more interesting to me if it could be represented in game like that, but when we run across the Daedric Princes, it's all just one-note.

Nah, you're right that especially ESO is rather uncomplex when it comes to that. The most you find about it is probably in background lore/lorebooks and Dunmer religion with the Good Daedra or Anticipations.

I understand that this game has to appeal to a big public, but I still think the writing could be more complex. I don't believe that a bit more nuanced writing would immediately chase masses of people away - not more than boring or too simple writing does. And who doesn't care for the lore can still play the game without reading much of it, so that's not really an issue either.

metheglyn wrote: »

That is kind of what I was getting at--why don't we see the motivations of the rank and file? I get that some people just want to watch the world burn or are just evil because why not, but so many? Yeah, I might have liked a Worm Cult redux if there was more to it than just "hey, we're bad! like, really bad!"

I think one problem is that it's hard to make sense how anyone except for Mannimarco (and maybe close allies to him who might be promised reigning at his side) would support the Planemeld. Who would profit from merging Coldharbour and Nirn? A trader interested in rare materials from Coldharbour (make up some stuff about Chaotic Creatia or whatever) would not benefit from it if everthing becomes Coldharbour - or everyone's dead, so there's no one to sell it to. Can't even make up a cheesy story about someone needing a door to Coldharbour to free a loved one from there - in the end, how does it matter, if your homeland also became coldharbourized and everything is just as bad? No, I think to make sense of it, there would need to be some new lore. And most of all, someone willing to take the hassle to write it

katanagirl1 · May 16

It never makes sense to me why ordinary people would join a cult that serves a Daedric prince that wants to completely destroy the world. Like, don’t you think destroying the world is going to destroy you too? You’re just an insignificant part of this cult, there is no way you are going to be spared. Maybe they just aren’t very smart.

I found the dialog choices in the prologue to be very disappointing. I just picked the ordinary ones after seeing the others did not elicit the response I thought they would. Why add a new system for this when we already have the Fighters Guild and Mages Guild choices? They’ve gotten away from those, though.

The return to the Worm Cult reminds me of the last Star Wars movie where I thought it was great how they returned to more action and the feel of earlier Star Wars movies - until I realized it was exactly the same story as in the first movie, episode 4. I can’t even remember the name of it, a newer one, it had a Starkiller base instead of a Death Star, but all the same plot story nonetheless. I hope the new chapter is not a carbon-copy repeat of the main story.

Over-the-top bad guys can be too much. They need some backstory to explain their actions, but not as a complete excusal for how they behave. In real life there are too many excuses for what people do and no responsibility for their actions. It tends to desensitize you to those who really deserve your empathy. Also, they can be too evil to be even comprehensible . That’s immersion breaking in itself.

JemadarofCaerSalis · May 16

Syldras wrote: »

I think one problem is that it's hard to make sense how anyone except for Mannimarco (and maybe close allies to him who might be promised reigning at his side) would support the Planemeld. Who would profit from merging Coldharbour and Nirn? A trader interested in rare materials from Coldharbour (make up some stuff about Chaotic Creatia or whatever) would not benefit from it if everthing becomes Coldharbour - or everyone's dead, so there's no one to sell it to. Can't even make up a cheesy story about someone needing a door to Coldharbour to free a loved one from there - in the end, how does it matter, if your homeland also became coldharbourized and everything is just as bad? No, I think to make sense of it, there would need to be some new lore. And most of all, someone willing to take the hassle to write it

For me, I could easily see masses joining the worm cult, even with the planemeld.

Look at how people will join groups and cults today. The same reasonings can be applied here as well.

1. They want to belong. This is a very simple one, and typically would be used for the, shall we say less intelligent ones. They just want a group to belong to, and they don't mind or even like the violence associated with it.
2. They think they are going to be in power in some way after the planemeld. They think that the planemeld is going to affect everyone BUT them, so they will be in positions of power. These types of people often are of the belief that, because they are 'of the chosen few', they will be exempt from whatever negative things happen as a result.
3. They think joining the worm cult is the fastest way to get what they want, whether it is becoming a necromancer, or lich or whatever, and so they are just planning on using it as a stepping stone.
4. They love violence and so would join any group that allowed them free reign to be as violent as possible.
5. An offshot of 4, they just don't care what is going to happen tomorrow, as long as they get to have their 'fun' today.

Most of these types of people either don't think about the future, or they think they are going to be exempt from the consequences. A small subset probably even welcomes the planemeld.

I don't think it would be much about profit, as you said, who could profit really, but more about personal pleasures and taking what they want in the time they have. But even then, I could see some traders thinking that they could be 'in on the ground floor' of things when they get rebuilt after the planemeld. IE, a combo of them expecting that they would be exempt from being killed when planemeld happens, and thus being able to set themselves up for whatever beings start inhabiting the realms again. They would have a monopoly on pretty much anything, because everyone else would be too busy trying to survive.

Whether it is realistic that there WOULD be rebuilding after the planemeld is a different story, because most of these types of people don't think that far ahead. Again, they are only thinking about themselves and how they can personally take advantage of the situation and dont' stop to think 'what if this doesn't happen?'

Basically, I see most of the people who join the worm cult as being not very intelligent, or only concerned about their desires. They either don't think about the planemeld as actually happening, or they somehow think they can jockey enough favor to be exempt from it when the time comes.

metheglyn · May 16

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

That would be more interesting to me if it could be represented in game like that, but when we run across the Daedric Princes, it's all just one-note.

Nah, you're right that especially ESO is rather uncomplex when it comes to that. The most you find about it is probably in background lore/lorebooks and Dunmer religion with the Good Daedra or Anticipations.

I understand that this game has to appeal to a big public, but I still think the writing could be more complex. I don't believe that a bit more nuanced writing would immediately chase masses of people away - not more than boring or too simple writing does. And who doesn't care for the lore can still play the game without reading much of it, so that's not really an issue either.

Yeah, there is a balance to strike between overly simplistic and more complex in the writing. I think they can do it, and actually have done it. I'm a big fan of the Tribunal and I think they've represented Vivec and Sotha Sil quite well.

In game, I find Vivec equally fascinating and repelling, which speaks to the duality of his character. What I like about Sotha Sil is that, no matter how much time you spend in his world, studying all he's done, and even talking quite personally to him, I feel like understanding him is always just out of reach. I wish Amalexia would have had more in-depth content added over the years. What we see of her in the base game isn't all that deep, but she does have some nuance.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

That is kind of what I was getting at--why don't we see the motivations of the rank and file? I get that some people just want to watch the world burn or are just evil because why not, but so many? Yeah, I might have liked a Worm Cult redux if there was more to it than just "hey, we're bad! like, really bad!"

I think one problem is that it's hard to make sense how anyone except for Mannimarco (and maybe close allies to him who might be promised reigning at his side) would support the Planemeld. Who would profit from merging Coldharbour and Nirn? A trader interested in rare materials from Coldharbour (make up some stuff about Chaotic Creatia or whatever) would not benefit from it if everthing becomes Coldharbour - or everyone's dead, so there's no one to sell it to. Can't even make up a cheesy story about someone needing a door to Coldharbour to free a loved one from there - in the end, how does it matter, if your homeland also became coldharbourized and everything is just as bad? No, I think to make sense of it, there would need to be some new lore. And most of all, someone willing to take the hassle to write it

Yeah, there really isn't much going for motivation when it comes to the Planemeld. I don't know much about the new story, but I hope the end result the cult is going for isn't another world destruction scenario. Molag Bal is the god of schemes, I've heard tell, but all I've seen of him is the brutality side to his character. It could be interesting to see his scheming side, beyond what Meridia tells us at the end of Coldharbour (which really rang hollow to me because I hadn't seen any evidence of it).

Syldras · May 16

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

Basically, I see most of the people who join the worm cult as being not very intelligent, or only concerned about their desires. They either don't think about the planemeld as actually happening, or they somehow think they can jockey enough favor to be exempt from it when the time comes.

I see... But could people that dumb be necromancers? Because according to how the Worm Cult is portrayed, they're all mages, no? And that would require at least some degree of intelligence.

Now I imagine a cult of idiotic wizards. That would be creepier than it sounds!

metheglyn · May 16

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

I think one problem is that it's hard to make sense how anyone except for Mannimarco (and maybe close allies to him who might be promised reigning at his side) would support the Planemeld. Who would profit from merging Coldharbour and Nirn? A trader interested in rare materials from Coldharbour (make up some stuff about Chaotic Creatia or whatever) would not benefit from it if everthing becomes Coldharbour - or everyone's dead, so there's no one to sell it to. Can't even make up a cheesy story about someone needing a door to Coldharbour to free a loved one from there - in the end, how does it matter, if your homeland also became coldharbourized and everything is just as bad? No, I think to make sense of it, there would need to be some new lore. And most of all, someone willing to take the hassle to write it

For me, I could easily see masses joining the worm cult, even with the planemeld.

Look at how people will join groups and cults today. The same reasonings can be applied here as well.

1. They want to belong. This is a very simple one, and typically would be used for the, shall we say less intelligent ones. They just want a group to belong to, and they don't mind or even like the violence associated with it.
2. They think they are going to be in power in some way after the planemeld. They think that the planemeld is going to affect everyone BUT them, so they will be in positions of power. These types of people often are of the belief that, because they are 'of the chosen few', they will be exempt from whatever negative things happen as a result.
3. They think joining the worm cult is the fastest way to get what they want, whether it is becoming a necromancer, or lich or whatever, and so they are just planning on using it as a stepping stone.
4. They love violence and so would join any group that allowed them free reign to be as violent as possible.
5. An offshot of 4, they just don't care what is going to happen tomorrow, as long as they get to have their 'fun' today.

Most of these types of people either don't think about the future, or they think they are going to be exempt from the consequences. A small subset probably even welcomes the planemeld.

I don't think it would be much about profit, as you said, who could profit really, but more about personal pleasures and taking what they want in the time they have. But even then, I could see some traders thinking that they could be 'in on the ground floor' of things when they get rebuilt after the planemeld. IE, a combo of them expecting that they would be exempt from being killed when planemeld happens, and thus being able to set themselves up for whatever beings start inhabiting the realms again. They would have a monopoly on pretty much anything, because everyone else would be too busy trying to survive.

Whether it is realistic that there WOULD be rebuilding after the planemeld is a different story, because most of these types of people don't think that far ahead. Again, they are only thinking about themselves and how they can personally take advantage of the situation and dont' stop to think 'what if this doesn't happen?'

Basically, I see most of the people who join the worm cult as being not very intelligent, or only concerned about their desires. They either don't think about the planemeld as actually happening, or they somehow think they can jockey enough favor to be exempt from it when the time comes.

You make some good points about why people join, and I agree that there are people who would fall into those categories. I think where it falls apart a bit for me is just how many people join. The Worm Cult seems to have no end of personnel to station about Tamriel, all of whom perform in lock-step with the ideology.

Someone mentioned Aera Earth-Turner, and she's a good example of showing us why someone would end up joining. We know her from the beginning and it's not a stretch to understand why she went the way she did. Her story resonates for me because it's specific and somewhat realistic. If they can add more story beats like that, I think it would help. But cultist after cultist after cultist just being whole-heartedly in it for "reasons" makes it harder for me to be interested.

Syldras · May 16

katanagirl1 wrote: »

I hope the new chapter is not a carbon-copy repeat of the main story.

I mean, I have a suspicion. Putting it into spoiler tags just in case (even if it's just a speculation - based on an official screenshot, though):

I think the new Worm Cult thing will be turning Nirn into Coldharbour by a different method than the Planemeld. At least there was a picture in one of the official news articles, without a comment, that showed a tropical island landscape with Argonian pyramids merged with the typical Coldharbour terrain structure, rocks, etc - I suspect that's what we'll see on the second half on the island: Basically the tropical landscape turned to, or exchanged with, Coldharbour in a way.

Soarora · May 16

Freelancer_ESO wrote: »

I think they are trying to vary things up a bit.

With High Isle, Necrom, and Gold Road we've had three stories in a row where at times the opposition was more appealing than the side we were actually fighting to help which could leave the player feeling like they were "Captain Status Quo".

In fairness, I don’t think those stories were written well to begin with. High Isle’s twist villain was extremely predictable and thus all feeling of threat fell off immediately, replaced with disappointment. I liked that the villain was always one step ahead but the most obvious reason as to why that is should not have been the actual reason. I’m a Maormer lover but I still think it should have been Sorcerer-King Orgnum posing as a breton knight due to the Maormer involvement (I believe Orgnum does fight on the frontlines at times) and strange strength and knowledge. It should have been a story of reuniting the Bretons and the Druids against a common threat but it was a story of a man who wants to conquer his lineage. It was boring. And sad. Disappointing. I liked it up until the twist reveal.

Necrom/Gold Road is just strange. ZOS tried to write morally grey characters but just made a character that felt like the good guy, so then I felt like the bad guy…
Conceptually, everyone being morally grey is interesting. In practice, I wasn’t clear as to why I needed to be against these people and it didn’t actually add any depth.

spartaxoxo · May 16

Freelancer_ESO wrote: »

I think they are trying to vary things up a bit.

With High Isle, Necrom, and Gold Road we've had three stories in a row where at times the opposition was more appealing than the side we were actually fighting to help which could leave the player feeling like they were "Captain Status Quo".

One of the things I enjoyed especially on my alts in SWTOR was the funny lines. Obviously, you don't want it to be all humor but, occasionally going in that direction does help with being able to enjoy doing the content multiple times.

Yeah, that's how I feel as well. I do like and often prefer complex villains. But a good irredeemable villain who just needs a killing is also a good to throw in occasionally in a video game, IMO. I don't particularly want all my villains to be the same type of writing. Sometimes simple, sometimes complex. Sometimes sympathetic, other times irredeemable.

Sometimes I actually do just want a hamburger.

JemadarofCaerSalis · May 16

metheglyn wrote: »

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

I think one problem is that it's hard to make sense how anyone except for Mannimarco (and maybe close allies to him who might be promised reigning at his side) would support the Planemeld. Who would profit from merging Coldharbour and Nirn? A trader interested in rare materials from Coldharbour (make up some stuff about Chaotic Creatia or whatever) would not benefit from it if everthing becomes Coldharbour - or everyone's dead, so there's no one to sell it to. Can't even make up a cheesy story about someone needing a door to Coldharbour to free a loved one from there - in the end, how does it matter, if your homeland also became coldharbourized and everything is just as bad? No, I think to make sense of it, there would need to be some new lore. And most of all, someone willing to take the hassle to write it

For me, I could easily see masses joining the worm cult, even with the planemeld.

Look at how people will join groups and cults today. The same reasonings can be applied here as well.

1. They want to belong. This is a very simple one, and typically would be used for the, shall we say less intelligent ones. They just want a group to belong to, and they don't mind or even like the violence associated with it.
2. They think they are going to be in power in some way after the planemeld. They think that the planemeld is going to affect everyone BUT them, so they will be in positions of power. These types of people often are of the belief that, because they are 'of the chosen few', they will be exempt from whatever negative things happen as a result.
3. They think joining the worm cult is the fastest way to get what they want, whether it is becoming a necromancer, or lich or whatever, and so they are just planning on using it as a stepping stone.
4. They love violence and so would join any group that allowed them free reign to be as violent as possible.
5. An offshot of 4, they just don't care what is going to happen tomorrow, as long as they get to have their 'fun' today.

Most of these types of people either don't think about the future, or they think they are going to be exempt from the consequences. A small subset probably even welcomes the planemeld.

I don't think it would be much about profit, as you said, who could profit really, but more about personal pleasures and taking what they want in the time they have. But even then, I could see some traders thinking that they could be 'in on the ground floor' of things when they get rebuilt after the planemeld. IE, a combo of them expecting that they would be exempt from being killed when planemeld happens, and thus being able to set themselves up for whatever beings start inhabiting the realms again. They would have a monopoly on pretty much anything, because everyone else would be too busy trying to survive.

Whether it is realistic that there WOULD be rebuilding after the planemeld is a different story, because most of these types of people don't think that far ahead. Again, they are only thinking about themselves and how they can personally take advantage of the situation and dont' stop to think 'what if this doesn't happen?'

Basically, I see most of the people who join the worm cult as being not very intelligent, or only concerned about their desires. They either don't think about the planemeld as actually happening, or they somehow think they can jockey enough favor to be exempt from it when the time comes.

You make some good points about why people join, and I agree that there are people who would fall into those categories. I think where it falls apart a bit for me is just how many people join. The Worm Cult seems to have no end of personnel to station about Tamriel, all of whom perform in lock-step with the ideology.

Someone mentioned Aera Earth-Turner, and she's a good example of showing us why someone would end up joining. We know her from the beginning and it's not a stretch to understand why she went the way she did. Her story resonates for me because it's specific and somewhat realistic. If they can add more story beats like that, I think it would help. But cultist after cultist after cultist just being whole-heartedly in it for "reasons" makes it harder for me to be interested.

I think that there would be a pretty much never ending supply of these types of people.

For one, think about the time period Tamriel is supposed to take place. There isn't a lot of upward movement, not unless you are one of the lucky few (and remember, the people we see are technically a fraction of the amount of people there *should* be in this world) who managed to luck out, so people who are stuck being a farmer or who can't manage to follow their parents' footsteps would be the most likely people I can see who would fall for this type of ideology.

Then you add that many places are war torn, which means people out of jobs because the farms have been destroyed, or the towns are just no longer there, or occupied. (and just replace farm/farming with pretty much any job) You have cases where people who were once slaves needing to be okay with being in the same alliance as their slavers, you have the Altmer who tend to come in with a high and mighty attitude, and all the other various forms of tension within each of the alliances, and everyone is supposed to be okay with that.

They also don't have a lot of ways to be 'social'. If someone doesn't really fit in at the local tavern, there aren't a lot of other groups, and no real way for them to travel to a different tavern or city to find a group they do fit in. So, when people go through town talking about a group that wants them, they join and think about the consequences later or never. Especially if that group talks about being able to travel or meet like minded people, or giving them the power to fight back against those they percieve as 'wronging them'.

That tends to alienate people and make joining cults and groups like that appealing. Because they see it as their way to fight back.

When you add in, again, that the people we see in the towns and zones are a fraction of the number of people who *should* exist in such a world, that allows for a great many people to be split off into the various groups, both against us and with us.

Now, the constant parade of enemies in places like delves, is sadly an issue more with it being a game rather than something in reality. (if that makes sense) It isn't really realistic that I go through, kill off the people in the delve, and as I am leaving, I run into more people standing over the bodies of their comrades. it is the same issue in town when someone goes around with a blade of woe. You can see people standing over their own bodies, sometimes two or three times over, depending on how fast they respawn and how often they are killed.

Syldras wrote: »

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

Basically, I see most of the people who join the worm cult as being not very intelligent, or only concerned about their desires. They either don't think about the planemeld as actually happening, or they somehow think they can jockey enough favor to be exempt from it when the time comes.

I see... But could people that dumb be necromancers? Because according to how the Worm Cult is portrayed, they're all mages, no? And that would require at least some degree of intelligence.

Now I imagine a cult of idiotic wizards. That would be creepier than it sounds!

Eh, There is a difference between intelligence and learning. These people might be just intelligent enough to be able to cast a fireball and ice bolt, but that is about it. They just have to have the talent to be able to do what they are told and learn the spells they are told to. It doesn't mean that they are all that intelligent once you get past the basic spells.

The ones who ARE more intelligent are the ones who either leave the ranks, or they raise up through them. It is these that I would expect to start getting more and more complicated backstories, because they wouldn't necessarily fall into one of the categories I mentioned in my other post. Or, if they did, they were intelligent enough to realize 'hey, maybe I need to curry some more favor here' and start working towards their goals.

Basically, to me, while it might require some degree of intelligence, it doesn't mean they are actually intelligent, but rather that they are able to learn and have the talent required to learn it. I can't really think of a good analogy, but basically, the majority of the people in the worm cult would be the equivalent of people at entry level and most having no ambition or ability to raise higher. They can pass the limited entrance exam to join, but beyond that, I would even hesitate to call them mages. I think my mage's pride is a bit upset at the thought of the people I mow down on my way to wherever being called *mages*!

Edit: I don't know what was up with the quotes, but cleaned it up a bit, and forgot to mention.

Yes, the thought of a cult of idiotic wizards is absolutely terrifying! They might actually succeed at burning the world down, just through their sheer incompetance! It would be impossible to predict them, because they don't even know what they are doing!

Ilsabet · May 16

Freelancer_ESO wrote: »

With High Isle, Necrom, and Gold Road we've had three stories in a row where at times the opposition was more appealing than the side we were actually fighting to help which could leave the player feeling like they were "Captain Status Quo".

It was quite telling, and also hilarious, that when ZOS did their promo livestream for High Isle they presented the Ascendant Order as this grassroots group pushing back against the privilege of the elite and everybody was like "wow they sound awesome" and ZOS had to be like "wait no they're totally bad guys they murder people and stuff." It seemed awfully out of touch with popular sentiment wanting to hold the rich and powerful accountable for treating regular people like disposable tools, but the way the story played out, there wasn't really any of that nuance to be found. The Order just said they wanted to help regular people, but that was just PR to brainwash plebs into joining and doing the dirty work for the guy who wanted to be even more of a tyrant than the rulers they already had. Because at the end of the day we need baddies to oppose and an endboss to kill.

It was also quite easy to sympathize with Ithelia and see the Prince we were working for as the one who was actually in the wrong. But, again, we did what we were told to do, because there was a status quo to maintain.

This time with a side order of "good job breaking it, hero" where we were technically responsible for the problem we were contractually obligated to solve.

metheglyn · May 16

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

I think one problem is that it's hard to make sense how anyone except for Mannimarco (and maybe close allies to him who might be promised reigning at his side) would support the Planemeld. Who would profit from merging Coldharbour and Nirn? A trader interested in rare materials from Coldharbour (make up some stuff about Chaotic Creatia or whatever) would not benefit from it if everthing becomes Coldharbour - or everyone's dead, so there's no one to sell it to. Can't even make up a cheesy story about someone needing a door to Coldharbour to free a loved one from there - in the end, how does it matter, if your homeland also became coldharbourized and everything is just as bad? No, I think to make sense of it, there would need to be some new lore. And most of all, someone willing to take the hassle to write it

For me, I could easily see masses joining the worm cult, even with the planemeld.

Look at how people will join groups and cults today. The same reasonings can be applied here as well.

1. They want to belong. This is a very simple one, and typically would be used for the, shall we say less intelligent ones. They just want a group to belong to, and they don't mind or even like the violence associated with it.
2. They think they are going to be in power in some way after the planemeld. They think that the planemeld is going to affect everyone BUT them, so they will be in positions of power. These types of people often are of the belief that, because they are 'of the chosen few', they will be exempt from whatever negative things happen as a result.
3. They think joining the worm cult is the fastest way to get what they want, whether it is becoming a necromancer, or lich or whatever, and so they are just planning on using it as a stepping stone.
4. They love violence and so would join any group that allowed them free reign to be as violent as possible.
5. An offshot of 4, they just don't care what is going to happen tomorrow, as long as they get to have their 'fun' today.

Most of these types of people either don't think about the future, or they think they are going to be exempt from the consequences. A small subset probably even welcomes the planemeld.

I don't think it would be much about profit, as you said, who could profit really, but more about personal pleasures and taking what they want in the time they have. But even then, I could see some traders thinking that they could be 'in on the ground floor' of things when they get rebuilt after the planemeld. IE, a combo of them expecting that they would be exempt from being killed when planemeld happens, and thus being able to set themselves up for whatever beings start inhabiting the realms again. They would have a monopoly on pretty much anything, because everyone else would be too busy trying to survive.

Whether it is realistic that there WOULD be rebuilding after the planemeld is a different story, because most of these types of people don't think that far ahead. Again, they are only thinking about themselves and how they can personally take advantage of the situation and dont' stop to think 'what if this doesn't happen?'

Basically, I see most of the people who join the worm cult as being not very intelligent, or only concerned about their desires. They either don't think about the planemeld as actually happening, or they somehow think they can jockey enough favor to be exempt from it when the time comes.

You make some good points about why people join, and I agree that there are people who would fall into those categories. I think where it falls apart a bit for me is just how many people join. The Worm Cult seems to have no end of personnel to station about Tamriel, all of whom perform in lock-step with the ideology.

Someone mentioned Aera Earth-Turner, and she's a good example of showing us why someone would end up joining. We know her from the beginning and it's not a stretch to understand why she went the way she did. Her story resonates for me because it's specific and somewhat realistic. If they can add more story beats like that, I think it would help. But cultist after cultist after cultist just being whole-heartedly in it for "reasons" makes it harder for me to be interested.

I think that there would be a pretty much never ending supply of these types of people.

For one, think about the time period Tamriel is supposed to take place. There isn't a lot of upward movement, not unless you are one of the lucky few (and remember, the people we see are technically a fraction of the amount of people there *should* be in this world) who managed to luck out, so people who are stuck being a farmer or who can't manage to follow their parents' footsteps would be the most likely people I can see who would fall for this type of ideology.

Then you add that many places are war torn, which means people out of jobs because the farms have been destroyed, or the towns are just no longer there, or occupied. (and just replace farm/farming with pretty much any job) You have cases where people who were once slaves needing to be okay with being in the same alliance as their slavers, you have the Altmer who tend to come in with a high and mighty attitude, and all the other various forms of tension within each of the alliances, and everyone is supposed to be okay with that.

They also don't have a lot of ways to be 'social'. If someone doesn't really fit in at the local tavern, there aren't a lot of other groups, and no real way for them to travel to a different tavern or city to find a group they do fit in. So, when people go through town talking about a group that wants them, they join and think about the consequences later or never. Especially if that group talks about being able to travel or meet like minded people, or giving them the power to fight back against those they percieve as 'wronging them'.

That tends to alienate people and make joining cults and groups like that appealing. Because they see it as their way to fight back.

When you add in, again, that the people we see in the towns and zones are a fraction of the number of people who *should* exist in such a world, that allows for a great many people to be split off into the various groups, both against us and with us.

Now, the constant parade of enemies in places like delves, is sadly an issue more with it being a game rather than something in reality. (if that makes sense) It isn't really realistic that I go through, kill off the people in the delve, and as I am leaving, I run into more people standing over the bodies of their comrades. it is the same issue in town when someone goes around with a blade of woe. You can see people standing over their own bodies, sometimes two or three times over, depending on how fast they respawn and how often they are killed.

I agree that there are probably a lot of desperate/lost/vulnerable people in Tamriel, but I don't see them all joining the Worm Cult. I think they'd be far more likely to join the local bandit gang and hang out in the local delve, because that's a clearer path to them: steal, fence, buy food/clothes/whatever, remain close to home. While I've never heard the Worm Cult's pitch, so to speak, I have a hard time thinking the average Tamriel citizen going through hard times is going to be so quickly swayed to "let's just end the world."

When I think of the Worm Cult's numbers, I'm not thinking of the gameplay aspect of it with the respawn and the crowds of them placed in their hideouts to facilitate the "kill 10" quests that people need to do. I'm thinking of just the vast number of places they can be found. They have a sect of goons everywhere, and even if, canonically, that sect contains only ten people total, that's still a lot overall.

There's three anchors per zone, five zones per alliance, and three alliances. Forty-five dark anchors across the landscape (not counting Cyrodiil) and at each anchor, ten cultists to summon a sacrifice to open it (I think it's ten; could be more or fewer; honestly, I've never actually counted them, just mowed them down). Even if we say that each anchor is canonically only activated once, that's still 450 disposable cultists. That's quite a lot for a cult to lose and still be functioning everywhere else they are. That then makes me wonder if the high likelihood of death if you join the Worm Cult would make people hesitate to do it. It just seems to me that, by now, people would have figured out the Worm Cult isn't quite the answer it might have once seemed.

katanagirl1 · May 16

Syldras wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

I hope the new chapter is not a carbon-copy repeat of the main story.

I mean, I have a suspicion. Putting it into spoiler tags just in case (even if it's just a speculation - based on an official screenshot, though):
I think the new Worm Cult thing will be turning Nirn into Coldharbour by a different method than the Planemeld. At least there was a picture in one of the official news articles, without a comment, that showed a tropical island landscape with Argonian pyramids merged with the typical Coldharbour terrain structure, rocks, etc - I suspect that's what we'll see on the second half on the island: Basically the tropical landscape turned to, or exchanged with, Coldharbour in a way.

Even if they use a different mechanism to try to achieve the same goal this time, it will be disappointing. Just like the Starkiller instead of the Death Star trying to achieve the same goal was disappointing. I want a new story, not a recycled one.

Northwold · May 16

I can't stand most of the daedric princes because they're cartoon characters, as others have said in various ways.

But part of the problem here is the way the lore of the early Elder Scrolls games was essentially sketched out on the back of a napkin. If memory serves the Khajiit started out as a race of pole dancers, basically, in Arena.

This has then carried over into concepts like Peryite. Peryite is a stupid concept. A prince who, in any realistic world, no one would follow, but is supposed to have followers so the writers have felt obliged to make it work despite having to come up with the most forced, contrived nonsense to get there. As storytelling, it feels just bad and awkward, because no credible explanation is ever put forward for why people would behave this way.

I have to say, on the worm cult I have literally no idea who they are and what their purpose is, because I found the story so by-the-numbers in setting them up that I stopped paying any attention. So, yeah, villains who are irredeemably evil aren't really for me. Molag Bal is a suffocating bore. Even in Biblical terms the devil has a back story.

JemadarofCaerSalis · May 16

metheglyn wrote: »

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

I think one problem is that it's hard to make sense how anyone except for Mannimarco (and maybe close allies to him who might be promised reigning at his side) would support the Planemeld. Who would profit from merging Coldharbour and Nirn? A trader interested in rare materials from Coldharbour (make up some stuff about Chaotic Creatia or whatever) would not benefit from it if everthing becomes Coldharbour - or everyone's dead, so there's no one to sell it to. Can't even make up a cheesy story about someone needing a door to Coldharbour to free a loved one from there - in the end, how does it matter, if your homeland also became coldharbourized and everything is just as bad? No, I think to make sense of it, there would need to be some new lore. And most of all, someone willing to take the hassle to write it

For me, I could easily see masses joining the worm cult, even with the planemeld.

Look at how people will join groups and cults today. The same reasonings can be applied here as well.

1. They want to belong. This is a very simple one, and typically would be used for the, shall we say less intelligent ones. They just want a group to belong to, and they don't mind or even like the violence associated with it.
2. They think they are going to be in power in some way after the planemeld. They think that the planemeld is going to affect everyone BUT them, so they will be in positions of power. These types of people often are of the belief that, because they are 'of the chosen few', they will be exempt from whatever negative things happen as a result.
3. They think joining the worm cult is the fastest way to get what they want, whether it is becoming a necromancer, or lich or whatever, and so they are just planning on using it as a stepping stone.
4. They love violence and so would join any group that allowed them free reign to be as violent as possible.
5. An offshot of 4, they just don't care what is going to happen tomorrow, as long as they get to have their 'fun' today.

Most of these types of people either don't think about the future, or they think they are going to be exempt from the consequences. A small subset probably even welcomes the planemeld.

I don't think it would be much about profit, as you said, who could profit really, but more about personal pleasures and taking what they want in the time they have. But even then, I could see some traders thinking that they could be 'in on the ground floor' of things when they get rebuilt after the planemeld. IE, a combo of them expecting that they would be exempt from being killed when planemeld happens, and thus being able to set themselves up for whatever beings start inhabiting the realms again. They would have a monopoly on pretty much anything, because everyone else would be too busy trying to survive.

Whether it is realistic that there WOULD be rebuilding after the planemeld is a different story, because most of these types of people don't think that far ahead. Again, they are only thinking about themselves and how they can personally take advantage of the situation and dont' stop to think 'what if this doesn't happen?'

Basically, I see most of the people who join the worm cult as being not very intelligent, or only concerned about their desires. They either don't think about the planemeld as actually happening, or they somehow think they can jockey enough favor to be exempt from it when the time comes.

You make some good points about why people join, and I agree that there are people who would fall into those categories. I think where it falls apart a bit for me is just how many people join. The Worm Cult seems to have no end of personnel to station about Tamriel, all of whom perform in lock-step with the ideology.

Someone mentioned Aera Earth-Turner, and she's a good example of showing us why someone would end up joining. We know her from the beginning and it's not a stretch to understand why she went the way she did. Her story resonates for me because it's specific and somewhat realistic. If they can add more story beats like that, I think it would help. But cultist after cultist after cultist just being whole-heartedly in it for "reasons" makes it harder for me to be interested.

I think that there would be a pretty much never ending supply of these types of people.

For one, think about the time period Tamriel is supposed to take place. There isn't a lot of upward movement, not unless you are one of the lucky few (and remember, the people we see are technically a fraction of the amount of people there *should* be in this world) who managed to luck out, so people who are stuck being a farmer or who can't manage to follow their parents' footsteps would be the most likely people I can see who would fall for this type of ideology.

Then you add that many places are war torn, which means people out of jobs because the farms have been destroyed, or the towns are just no longer there, or occupied. (and just replace farm/farming with pretty much any job) You have cases where people who were once slaves needing to be okay with being in the same alliance as their slavers, you have the Altmer who tend to come in with a high and mighty attitude, and all the other various forms of tension within each of the alliances, and everyone is supposed to be okay with that.

They also don't have a lot of ways to be 'social'. If someone doesn't really fit in at the local tavern, there aren't a lot of other groups, and no real way for them to travel to a different tavern or city to find a group they do fit in. So, when people go through town talking about a group that wants them, they join and think about the consequences later or never. Especially if that group talks about being able to travel or meet like minded people, or giving them the power to fight back against those they percieve as 'wronging them'.

That tends to alienate people and make joining cults and groups like that appealing. Because they see it as their way to fight back.

When you add in, again, that the people we see in the towns and zones are a fraction of the number of people who *should* exist in such a world, that allows for a great many people to be split off into the various groups, both against us and with us.

Now, the constant parade of enemies in places like delves, is sadly an issue more with it being a game rather than something in reality. (if that makes sense) It isn't really realistic that I go through, kill off the people in the delve, and as I am leaving, I run into more people standing over the bodies of their comrades. it is the same issue in town when someone goes around with a blade of woe. You can see people standing over their own bodies, sometimes two or three times over, depending on how fast they respawn and how often they are killed.

I agree that there are probably a lot of desperate/lost/vulnerable people in Tamriel, but I don't see them all joining the Worm Cult. I think they'd be far more likely to join the local bandit gang and hang out in the local delve, because that's a clearer path to them: steal, fence, buy food/clothes/whatever, remain close to home. While I've never heard the Worm Cult's pitch, so to speak, I have a hard time thinking the average Tamriel citizen going through hard times is going to be so quickly swayed to "let's just end the world."

When I think of the Worm Cult's numbers, I'm not thinking of the gameplay aspect of it with the respawn and the crowds of them placed in their hideouts to facilitate the "kill 10" quests that people need to do. I'm thinking of just the vast number of places they can be found. They have a sect of goons everywhere, and even if, canonically, that sect contains only ten people total, that's still a lot overall.

There's three anchors per zone, five zones per alliance, and three alliances. Forty-five dark anchors across the landscape (not counting Cyrodiil) and at each anchor, ten cultists to summon a sacrifice to open it (I think it's ten; could be more or fewer; honestly, I've never actually counted them, just mowed them down). Even if we say that each anchor is canonically only activated once, that's still 450 disposable cultists. That's quite a lot for a cult to lose and still be functioning everywhere else they are. That then makes me wonder if the high likelihood of death if you join the Worm Cult would make people hesitate to do it. It just seems to me that, by now, people would have figured out the Worm Cult isn't quite the answer it might have once seemed.

I mean, if you think about it, a cult on the scale that the worm cult is, would have a lot.

It isn't so much that they would all be joining the worm cult, because they wouldn't, but rather just the sheer number of people that we simply don't see at all.

IE, I would imagine that each zone, if you consider that many contain one large city with all the amenities, and many contain at least one smaller city, should at least have hundreds of thousands of people. If I did the math right, even at only 100,000 people per zone, Even if only 1% of those are the type to join a cult like the worm cult, that is still 1000 people to split up between the various factions.

Doing a bit of research it doesn't seem like there have been any true estimates for population given (only people theorizing based upon real world counterparts), but the few numbers I have seen thrown out would support that there would potentially be a a lot of people per province. I saw someone say that Daggerfall, in the third era, was given a population of 110,000 people, I don't know whether it would be higher or lower in ESO's time (didn't do that much of a deep dive to try to figure it out).

So, I do feel that there would be easily enough population to fill out the rank and file of the worm cult, even at 450 cultists at the dolmens.

Sadly, and again this is from real world people, many people have the 'it won't happen to me' 'I am smarter than the people who joined before' or 'We will do it differently' mentality, which means they are perfectly willing to keep doing the same things over and over again despite it not working out. Because they think the outcome will be different.

You also have to take into account the religious fanaticism that the worm cult seems to have. They aren't religious per se, but many of the cultists at the dolmen at least, seem to worship Molag Bal. That means that many are willing to sacrifice their own life, because they often believe that the next one will be better, or they will be given a reward after death, etc...

Basically, just looking at Earth's history, there always seems to be plenty of people willing to risk their own lives for a cause they believe in, no matter what that cause is, and plenty of people who can somehow completely ignore precedents with regards to these causes.

TaSheen · May 16

@Syldras - agree completely.

metheglyn · May 16

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

I think one problem is that it's hard to make sense how anyone except for Mannimarco (and maybe close allies to him who might be promised reigning at his side) would support the Planemeld. Who would profit from merging Coldharbour and Nirn? A trader interested in rare materials from Coldharbour (make up some stuff about Chaotic Creatia or whatever) would not benefit from it if everthing becomes Coldharbour - or everyone's dead, so there's no one to sell it to. Can't even make up a cheesy story about someone needing a door to Coldharbour to free a loved one from there - in the end, how does it matter, if your homeland also became coldharbourized and everything is just as bad? No, I think to make sense of it, there would need to be some new lore. And most of all, someone willing to take the hassle to write it

For me, I could easily see masses joining the worm cult, even with the planemeld.

Look at how people will join groups and cults today. The same reasonings can be applied here as well.

1. They want to belong. This is a very simple one, and typically would be used for the, shall we say less intelligent ones. They just want a group to belong to, and they don't mind or even like the violence associated with it.
2. They think they are going to be in power in some way after the planemeld. They think that the planemeld is going to affect everyone BUT them, so they will be in positions of power. These types of people often are of the belief that, because they are 'of the chosen few', they will be exempt from whatever negative things happen as a result.
3. They think joining the worm cult is the fastest way to get what they want, whether it is becoming a necromancer, or lich or whatever, and so they are just planning on using it as a stepping stone.
4. They love violence and so would join any group that allowed them free reign to be as violent as possible.
5. An offshot of 4, they just don't care what is going to happen tomorrow, as long as they get to have their 'fun' today.

Most of these types of people either don't think about the future, or they think they are going to be exempt from the consequences. A small subset probably even welcomes the planemeld.

I don't think it would be much about profit, as you said, who could profit really, but more about personal pleasures and taking what they want in the time they have. But even then, I could see some traders thinking that they could be 'in on the ground floor' of things when they get rebuilt after the planemeld. IE, a combo of them expecting that they would be exempt from being killed when planemeld happens, and thus being able to set themselves up for whatever beings start inhabiting the realms again. They would have a monopoly on pretty much anything, because everyone else would be too busy trying to survive.

Whether it is realistic that there WOULD be rebuilding after the planemeld is a different story, because most of these types of people don't think that far ahead. Again, they are only thinking about themselves and how they can personally take advantage of the situation and dont' stop to think 'what if this doesn't happen?'

Basically, I see most of the people who join the worm cult as being not very intelligent, or only concerned about their desires. They either don't think about the planemeld as actually happening, or they somehow think they can jockey enough favor to be exempt from it when the time comes.

You make some good points about why people join, and I agree that there are people who would fall into those categories. I think where it falls apart a bit for me is just how many people join. The Worm Cult seems to have no end of personnel to station about Tamriel, all of whom perform in lock-step with the ideology.

Someone mentioned Aera Earth-Turner, and she's a good example of showing us why someone would end up joining. We know her from the beginning and it's not a stretch to understand why she went the way she did. Her story resonates for me because it's specific and somewhat realistic. If they can add more story beats like that, I think it would help. But cultist after cultist after cultist just being whole-heartedly in it for "reasons" makes it harder for me to be interested.

I think that there would be a pretty much never ending supply of these types of people.

For one, think about the time period Tamriel is supposed to take place. There isn't a lot of upward movement, not unless you are one of the lucky few (and remember, the people we see are technically a fraction of the amount of people there *should* be in this world) who managed to luck out, so people who are stuck being a farmer or who can't manage to follow their parents' footsteps would be the most likely people I can see who would fall for this type of ideology.

Then you add that many places are war torn, which means people out of jobs because the farms have been destroyed, or the towns are just no longer there, or occupied. (and just replace farm/farming with pretty much any job) You have cases where people who were once slaves needing to be okay with being in the same alliance as their slavers, you have the Altmer who tend to come in with a high and mighty attitude, and all the other various forms of tension within each of the alliances, and everyone is supposed to be okay with that.

They also don't have a lot of ways to be 'social'. If someone doesn't really fit in at the local tavern, there aren't a lot of other groups, and no real way for them to travel to a different tavern or city to find a group they do fit in. So, when people go through town talking about a group that wants them, they join and think about the consequences later or never. Especially if that group talks about being able to travel or meet like minded people, or giving them the power to fight back against those they percieve as 'wronging them'.

That tends to alienate people and make joining cults and groups like that appealing. Because they see it as their way to fight back.

When you add in, again, that the people we see in the towns and zones are a fraction of the number of people who *should* exist in such a world, that allows for a great many people to be split off into the various groups, both against us and with us.

Now, the constant parade of enemies in places like delves, is sadly an issue more with it being a game rather than something in reality. (if that makes sense) It isn't really realistic that I go through, kill off the people in the delve, and as I am leaving, I run into more people standing over the bodies of their comrades. it is the same issue in town when someone goes around with a blade of woe. You can see people standing over their own bodies, sometimes two or three times over, depending on how fast they respawn and how often they are killed.

I agree that there are probably a lot of desperate/lost/vulnerable people in Tamriel, but I don't see them all joining the Worm Cult. I think they'd be far more likely to join the local bandit gang and hang out in the local delve, because that's a clearer path to them: steal, fence, buy food/clothes/whatever, remain close to home. While I've never heard the Worm Cult's pitch, so to speak, I have a hard time thinking the average Tamriel citizen going through hard times is going to be so quickly swayed to "let's just end the world."

When I think of the Worm Cult's numbers, I'm not thinking of the gameplay aspect of it with the respawn and the crowds of them placed in their hideouts to facilitate the "kill 10" quests that people need to do. I'm thinking of just the vast number of places they can be found. They have a sect of goons everywhere, and even if, canonically, that sect contains only ten people total, that's still a lot overall.

There's three anchors per zone, five zones per alliance, and three alliances. Forty-five dark anchors across the landscape (not counting Cyrodiil) and at each anchor, ten cultists to summon a sacrifice to open it (I think it's ten; could be more or fewer; honestly, I've never actually counted them, just mowed them down). Even if we say that each anchor is canonically only activated once, that's still 450 disposable cultists. That's quite a lot for a cult to lose and still be functioning everywhere else they are. That then makes me wonder if the high likelihood of death if you join the Worm Cult would make people hesitate to do it. It just seems to me that, by now, people would have figured out the Worm Cult isn't quite the answer it might have once seemed.

I mean, if you think about it, a cult on the scale that the worm cult is, would have a lot.

It isn't so much that they would all be joining the worm cult, because they wouldn't, but rather just the sheer number of people that we simply don't see at all.

IE, I would imagine that each zone, if you consider that many contain one large city with all the amenities, and many contain at least one smaller city, should at least have hundreds of thousands of people. If I did the math right, even at only 100,000 people per zone, Even if only 1% of those are the type to join a cult like the worm cult, that is still 1000 people to split up between the various factions.

Doing a bit of research it doesn't seem like there have been any true estimates for population given (only people theorizing based upon real world counterparts), but the few numbers I have seen thrown out would support that there would potentially be a a lot of people per province. I saw someone say that Daggerfall, in the third era, was given a population of 110,000 people, I don't know whether it would be higher or lower in ESO's time (didn't do that much of a deep dive to try to figure it out).

So, I do feel that there would be easily enough population to fill out the rank and file of the worm cult, even at 450 cultists at the dolmens.

Sadly, and again this is from real world people, many people have the 'it won't happen to me' 'I am smarter than the people who joined before' or 'We will do it differently' mentality, which means they are perfectly willing to keep doing the same things over and over again despite it not working out. Because they think the outcome will be different.

You also have to take into account the religious fanaticism that the worm cult seems to have. They aren't religious per se, but many of the cultists at the dolmen at least, seem to worship Molag Bal. That means that many are willing to sacrifice their own life, because they often believe that the next one will be better, or they will be given a reward after death, etc...

Basically, just looking at Earth's history, there always seems to be plenty of people willing to risk their own lives for a cause they believe in, no matter what that cause is, and plenty of people who can somehow completely ignore precedents with regards to these causes.

I see what you're saying in regards to the general mentality of people not learning from past mistakes and history. People can be swayed to believe anything, in the right circumstances. But I also think people in general have a strong sense of self-preservation, and the high mortality rate of the Worm Cult would turn them off. By this time, it must be clear to people that those who join the Worm Cult don't end up well, which I think would hamper their recruitment efforts.

However, regardless of how many people there are in Tamriel and what percentage of them is likely to join a cult, much less the Worm Cult, the story we are presented with seems to not have much nuance to it. The article mentioned something like evil just for the sake of evil, and I just don't find that a very compelling storyline. Considering my character beat back the Worm Cult and dealt with Mannimarco, I'd really like to know who or what is giving the renewed Worm Cult the idea that this time it'll work out.

Syldras · May 16

metheglyn wrote: »

Considering my character beat back the Worm Cult and dealt with Mannimarco, I'd really like to know who or what is giving the renewed Worm Cult the idea that this time it'll work out.

The only thing I could imagine that would make sense would be if the story was about close confidents of Mannimarco trying to bring him back. Or maybe he had a plan B from the beginning and his underlings now go for that. Which would be a more interesting story than just repeating the original story again.

Northwold wrote: »

Peryite is a stupid concept. A prince who, in any realistic world, no one would follow, but is supposed to have followers so the writers have felt obliged to make it work despite having to come up with the most forced, contrived nonsense to get there. As storytelling, it feels just bad and awkward, because no credible explanation is ever put forward for why people would behave this way.

Maybe some people who had it very bad in life (sick, crippled, ugly - and marginalized in society for it) seeking for "revenge", ruining the life for everyone else too just out of spite. That or mentally very unwell people. As a fringe cult of few very disturbed individuals it would function. As a mass movement? No.

Other than that I could imagine spontaneous summonings to weaponize him against an enemy, if the situation is so dire that the price of harming yourself in the process seems worth it. But I wouldn't consider that actual cult worship.