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[Combat/PVP Centric] Poll - Player Sentiment on Combat Lead and Direction
supabicboi
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Combat Team Direction: Are They Making the Right Calls?
As we approach the latest update with subclassing, it's hard not to feel a sense of unease. The recent introduction of subclassing has sparked widespread concerns about combat balance, and it's clear that changes are being implemented without a thorough understanding of the game's intricate combat system. The lack of consideration for the ripple effect is staggering, and it's mind-boggling that the team doesn't seem to care.
The underlying MMR system in Battlegrounds remains in shambles(regardless of 3 side or 2 side), and previous combat changes, such as the u35 overhaul and hybridization, are all half-baked experiments; they made an initial change, and left it all to rot with no further improvements - that is not how any responsible gaming studio should perform; look at CD Projekt Red and their incremental improvements to Cyberpunk.
Now, with the new subclassing system looming, it's likely to tip the already precarious balance even further. It's appalling that synergies between skills are nonexistent, and the team seems oblivious to the problems they're creating, they just want a draft version to be shipped out live, for a new feature to be introduced so that players can be retained by another distraction.
Furthermore, the combat team has embarrassingly demonstrated their incompetence through livestreams, showcasing a glaring lack of understanding of their own creation. It's inexcusable that they're making far-reaching decisions that impact our gaming experience without a basic grasp of the game's mechanics. Despite years in the position, there's been no meaningful change in their approach, ideology, or communication. The lack of transparency on their process, ideology, and action plan for combat balance is a slap in the face.
The community has voiced its concerns, yet there's been no meaningful response or adaptation. Some of the most recent concerns voiced out about subclassing - non pet sorcs being forced out of their OWN skill line Deadric Summoning. NB Assassination skill line DOUBLE Spec Bow(???????). utterly baffling changes that have NO consideration to balance, player sentiment, and real time performance.
It begs the question: how long can we afford to have a combat lead who is so blatantly out of touch, making decisions that may irreparably harm the game's long-term health and our enjoyment? Is it time for a change in leadership?
Im sick and tired of witnessing the path this game is taking, the game that I and many other players have dedicated close to a decade of time in, to be manipulated in such ways that deviates from the changes we are actually looking for. It almost begs the question, how does this forum even matter, if not even a singular percent of our voices can be heard.
a msg to ZOS - this post is by no means slander or an attempt in defamation. This post is to gauge into the player sentiment, and have our opinions and voices united to see just how this community feels about the previous and recent combat changes. Yes, this is your game ZOS, but as your audience, none of the changes made in terms of combat in the recent 5 years has made me go, 'yep, this is a good direction'.
A REAL change that I would truly appreciate is to see ZOS delaying subclass, until its much closer to maturity, this would be an act of courage from the studio tho, which I highly doubt the board of bureaucratic dirt bags have. Who knows, I might be a minority on this issue, but I highly doubt that. Keep in mind just how many more of these terrible changes can the game still endure before player population plummets to nothingness.
Edited by supabicboi on 12 May 2025 11:34 As we approach the latest update with subclassing, it's hard not to feel a sense of unease. The recent introduction of subclassing has sparked widespread concerns about combat balance, and it's clear that changes are being implemented without a thorough understanding of the game's intricate combat system. The lack of consideration for the ripple effect is staggering, and it's mind-boggling that the team doesn't seem to care.
The underlying MMR system in Battlegrounds remains in shambles(regardless of 3 side or 2 side), and previous combat changes, such as the u35 overhaul and hybridization, are all half-baked experiments; they made an initial change, and left it all to rot with no further improvements - that is not how any responsible gaming studio should perform; look at CD Projekt Red and their incremental improvements to Cyberpunk.
Now, with the new subclassing system looming, it's likely to tip the already precarious balance even further. It's appalling that synergies between skills are nonexistent, and the team seems oblivious to the problems they're creating, they just want a draft version to be shipped out live, for a new feature to be introduced so that players can be retained by another distraction.
Furthermore, the combat team has embarrassingly demonstrated their incompetence through livestreams, showcasing a glaring lack of understanding of their own creation. It's inexcusable that they're making far-reaching decisions that impact our gaming experience without a basic grasp of the game's mechanics. Despite years in the position, there's been no meaningful change in their approach, ideology, or communication. The lack of transparency on their process, ideology, and action plan for combat balance is a slap in the face.
The community has voiced its concerns, yet there's been no meaningful response or adaptation. Some of the most recent concerns voiced out about subclassing - non pet sorcs being forced out of their OWN skill line Deadric Summoning. NB Assassination skill line DOUBLE Spec Bow(???????). utterly baffling changes that have NO consideration to balance, player sentiment, and real time performance.
It begs the question: how long can we afford to have a combat lead who is so blatantly out of touch, making decisions that may irreparably harm the game's long-term health and our enjoyment? Is it time for a change in leadership?
Im sick and tired of witnessing the path this game is taking, the game that I and many other players have dedicated close to a decade of time in, to be manipulated in such ways that deviates from the changes we are actually looking for. It almost begs the question, how does this forum even matter, if not even a singular percent of our voices can be heard.
a msg to ZOS - this post is by no means slander or an attempt in defamation. This post is to gauge into the player sentiment, and have our opinions and voices united to see just how this community feels about the previous and recent combat changes. Yes, this is your game ZOS, but as your audience, none of the changes made in terms of combat in the recent 5 years has made me go, 'yep, this is a good direction'.
A REAL change that I would truly appreciate is to see ZOS delaying subclass, until its much closer to maturity, this would be an act of courage from the studio tho, which I highly doubt the board of bureaucratic dirt bags have. Who knows, I might be a minority on this issue, but I highly doubt that. Keep in mind just how many more of these terrible changes can the game still endure before player population plummets to nothingness.
[Combat/PVP Centric] Poll - Player Sentiment on Combat Lead and Direction 48 votes
Yes, the combat team is making the right decisions for the game. (For players who are happy with the current direction of combat mechanics and balance changes.)
8%
4 votes
No, the combat team is not making the right decisions for the game. (For players who disagree with the combat team's decisions and feel they're heading in the wrong direction.)
72%
35 votes
Neutral/Mixed feelings: (For players who have both positive and negative opinions, or are unsure about the combat team's decisions.)
18%
9 votes
0
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alpha_synuclein✭✭✭✭✭No, the combat team is not making the right decisions for the game. (For players who disagree with the combat team's decisions and feel they're heading in the wrong direction.)Longevity of the game is never a priority over short-term profits.
And players that believe balance is important are not zos's target audience.4 -
Mesite✭✭✭✭Yes, the combat team is making the right decisions for the game. (For players who are happy with the current direction of combat mechanics and balance changes.)It's a rollercoaster ride. You either like rollercoasters or you don't.2
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cuddles_with_wroble✭✭✭✭✭No, the combat team is not making the right decisions for the game. (For players who disagree with the combat team's decisions and feel they're heading in the wrong direction.)Every patch is basically a speedrun to see how many times the devs can re learn the same lessons and then make the same mistakes. It has long since been clear that what the players want for the game and what zos wants are completely opposite and they are far more prone to ignoring us and doubling down on their choices than they are to stop and listen to feedback.8
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supabicboi✭✭✭No, the combat team is not making the right decisions for the game. (For players who disagree with the combat team's decisions and feel they're heading in the wrong direction.)cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »Every patch is basically a speedrun to see how many times the devs can re learn the same lessons and then make the same mistakes. It has long since been clear that what the players want for the game and what zos wants are completely opposite and they are far more prone to ignoring us and doubling down on their choices than they are to stop and listen to feedback.
and im hoping this post reaches some popularity for this reason. Is ZOS blind? do they not see the direction they head to have no strong base built upon it? [snip]
No true fixes to the biggest issue in combat. theres a whole thread dedicated on the discussion on battlegrounds. Do sth. this is another thread of poor player experience ZOS. figure out what the players want for combat means = how to make the system fun and engaging, and for christ sake fix the MMR system with something simple and effective. do not refresh MMR or else 1vxers similar to myself can one-handedly destroy the fun for the other 7 players in a 4v4. I feel bad being good, make me play against people that can give me a challenge, and stop making me grouped up with literally newbies that is testing a new build in BGs.
Different players belong in different ranks. It is not a difficult concept.
Nothing to the core is being READDRESSED. ZOS you cant just release a product and NOT add in incremental changes. NO way in the depths of malatar should they think whatever they release is the final version and not update it.
Just exactly how much longer will ZOS not update their broken systems? population is dwindling. and the only thing they can pull out of their behind is to introduce a new GAME BREAKING mechanic. The base combat is in such turmoil, start by fixing it step by step?
With the release of subclass, we will reach another point of no return. Not even gonna go into cyrodil in this comment, not yet.
[snip]
[edited for bashing]Edited by ZOS_Icy on 12 May 2025 17:550 -
supabicboi✭✭✭No, the combat team is not making the right decisions for the game. (For players who disagree with the combat team's decisions and feel they're heading in the wrong direction.)and thank god that there are already others that have a similar sentiment, a change is needed.
visit this discussion as well.
it is the same thing basically.0 -
Aggrovious✭✭✭✭No, the combat team is not making the right decisions for the game. (For players who disagree with the combat team's decisions and feel they're heading in the wrong direction.)I thought subclassing would be very cool. Necromancers were always bla and I wanted to make them better. I was going to make an all pet build and add DK ardent flames to have insane DOT passives. Turns out that was squashed and single classes are now terrible. I chose no for the following reasons.
1. Sorcerer changes. Maw of the Infernal will be unusable. The Daedric Skill line changes are awful.
2. Healer meta sets. Nerfed to the ground. They just want people to melt things as fast as possible now I guess. That is easier, but what is the point of a healer now if you can just run 10 dps and 2 tanks?
3. Subclassing. What sounded great on paper turned into a nightmare. Class identity is now gone. I will elaborate on this. Classes are now dog shi because you don't multi class. So a class you worked hard on is now bad until its good when you swap skill lines.
Subclassing inadvertently made the game boring. Now I have no real desire to play it. I am thrilled Oblivion Remastered was released because that has been way more fun to play.
Edited by Aggrovious on 12 May 2025 12:11Making a game fun should be a priority. Making a game balanced should not come at the expense of fun.1 -
QB1✭✭✭Neutral/Mixed feelings: (For players who have both positive and negative opinions, or are unsure about the combat team's decisions.)Balance has always been an issue and it is in all games. Just need to be constantly making meaningful tweaks.
I’m fine with them making deadric summoning a pet-based skill line. But no idea what they were thinking adding double bow proc to NB.
I like the direction we’re going with subclassing, but wish we’d get away from the silly constant bar swapping combat2 -
supabicboi✭✭✭No, the combat team is not making the right decisions for the game. (For players who disagree with the combat team's decisions and feel they're heading in the wrong direction.)
The lack of consideration for the ripple effect.Aggrovious wrote: »
3. Subclassing. What sounded great on paper turned into a nightmare. Class identity is now gone. I will elaborate on this. Classes are now dog shi because you don't multi class. So a class you worked hard on is now bad until its good when you swap skill lines.
What's even more concerning is ZOS's track record. Most combat changes affecting PvP, Cyrodiil, and BGs have been left incomplete. They make an initial change, only to abandon it and move on to the next project. Rarely do we see incremental changes or significant patches to clean up the mess.
It's unacceptable that subclassing will likely be released in a messy, incomplete state. But what's even more infuriating is that ZOS won't return to the project to make necessary changes, leaving players to deal with the consequences4 -
Kungfu✭✭✭✭No, the combat team is not making the right decisions for the game. (For players who disagree with the combat team's decisions and feel they're heading in the wrong direction.)Subclassing could have been sold to everyone here 10-11 years ago. Prior to initial release.
After revisiting Oblivion this past month, I (re)played that game for a few weeks and constantly thought "THIS was what everyone thought ESO was gonna be". And to this day, one of the first things new people STILL say is "I thought this would be more like Skyrim". I can only presume this is what they're wanting to address...? The same thing players have said for a decade suddenly get attention? The wrong attention. But attention now?
ZOS' approach to customer feedback in a parenting analogy:
6 year old says "I want a pony!"
ZOS parent ignores as though hearing aid is out and auditory connections not available.
6 year old turns 16.
ZOS parent says "Check this out! I heard you! I know you want a pony. Here's an actual horse".
16 year old frowns and gets into friend's Mustang.
To take the current ESO (after ELEVEN years of changes in the opposite direction of Elder Scrolls game mechanics) - you can't just turn the bus around. ESO is now its own object with its own ruleset. I am guessing the goal of subclassing is to turn current ESO into something more like Elder Scrolls RPGs.
You'd be better off creating ESO 2 and starting from scratch. <<<< Truthfully, I kinda wish some team was working on this. so much more is possible now than devs had in 2014.
But my own line of discussion here pisses me off all over again. It just exposes how little customers are heard & honored here. How many of you were also there during the exact. same. conversations.... during BETAs! Some of us warned and warned that "this is not Elder Scrolls" system-wise.
We didn't / couldn't go that "Oblvion Online" or "Skyrim Online" route.
Cool.
Turns out: it worked (when we finally got rid of vet levels lol).
To take advice you got 10 years ago. And try to implement it now... this way... What bicboi's saying about ZOS' track record echoes infinitely.
The only conclusion left for me is: it's the leadership that fails here. I wonder how many "low level" devs & moderators have taken our concerns to meeting after meeting where leadership sits there and pretends the hearing aid isn't in.
I want to be *very* clear with my response here:- I'm not saying I dislike current ESO state (pre-subclassing). I think it's a great game. Needs some PVP / Cyro system changes. But otherwise, ZOS: EMBRACE WHAT MAKES ESO UNIQUE. Stop trying to turn a horse into a pig.
- I am separating current proposed systems from Vengeance approach. I still have great hopes for Vengeance's / Cyrodiil Champions' future. A rebuild using THAT approach... that has merit.
Edited by Kungfu on 19 May 2025 13:436 -
supabicboi✭✭✭No, the combat team is not making the right decisions for the game. (For players who disagree with the combat team's decisions and feel they're heading in the wrong direction.)
I want to be *very* clear with my response here:- I'm not saying I dislike current ESO state (pre-subclassing). I think it's a great game. Needs some PVP / Cyro system changes. But otherwise, ZOS: EMBRACE WHAT MAKES ESO UNIQUE. Stop trying to turn a horse into a pig.
- I am separating current proposed systems from Vengeance approach. I still have great hopes for Vengeance's / Cyrodiil Champions' future. A rebuild using THAT approach... that has merit.
ngl it hurts my soul slightly knowing when June 2 hits, we have reached another milestone of no return.
And it hurts more knowing there are others same as you and me, who still have some hope for this game, tried over the span of years to try and convey pain points from the user/player pov.
I have hope not because I believe the devs or bureaucratic leadership will make the necessary changes and take from this forum, this community. I simply hope because this game has meant a great deal, and knowing that everything hangs on their poor decisions is painful. Its like boarding a plane, knowing the pilot just downed a whole bottle of vodka, this sense of impending doom is saddening.
a glimpse into the future when subclassing has lost its 'new' title, and population dwindles further.. fewer and fewer names recognized, zone activity diminished and all thats left are those still stubborn enough to get on hoping today is the day..
its poetic many of us are looking at vengeance not as the performance test it was, but as a better alternative instead..Edited by supabicboi on 20 May 2025 06:581 -
xylena_lazarow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Neutral/Mixed feelings: (For players who have both positive and negative opinions, or are unsure about the combat team's decisions.)Their handling of Rushing Agony and the double spec bow leaves a lot to be desired.
I'm impressed with the Vengeance redesigns, I hope they keep working on it, and add more sieges.Edited by xylena_lazarow on 21 May 2025 01:40PC/NA || Cyro/BGs || RIP old PvP build system || bring Vengeance0