It's an MMO. It's meant to be played in a group. You can't expect to be as strong as a group as a solo player. Under any circumstances. And I don't think there is any problem with people running coordinated sets to maximize group buffs. That's the same thing people do in high-end PVE. Its part of the game.

And if you think subclassing will be better for balance.... Then I know where you can find a golden sky shard. There are going to be people who find absolutely broken builds with subclassing and it will make the balance issue so much worse than things are right now. Not only will ball groups get stronger, but those unkillable troll tanks will be stronger. Bombs will be stronger. Gankers will be stronger. It's going to be an absolute trainwreck for a while IMO. It might be fun and chaotic, but once the dust settles, its probably going to make for an overall miserable experience.

And in PVE, subclassing is going to destroy any semblance of balance. DPS will be able to do 150-180k DPS on a trial dummy, meaning in live trial situations, they'll be doing 250k DPS or more with optimized buffs. Endgame PVE content will become very trivial unless they make it with insanely hard mechanics that only a few will be able to negotiate and get through, and overall, endgame PVE is going to also become a gong show.

I don't know how subclassing will improve role playing when the very intent of subclassing is to destroy class identity. What role is there to play if everyone is every role?

Even if I'm solo, most of the time other players from same faction are fighting near me.

What I meant is 4 good solo players against 4 people on group don't stand a chance and that's bad combat design.

Another exemple is 2 players landing ult on a heal stacking group of 3 doesn't make their health bar move.

Combat design just doesn't give a reasonable chance to every kind of players you found in cyrodiil.

I know vengeance is too simple compared to actual combat system but at least it brings back some balance and I had fun doing 1vX

People like me who solo are the ones to fall back and defend the home keeps while the one or two groups are off attacking some empty keep in enemy territory. We are absolutely needed. I do not look forward to new and improved invulnerable ball groups either. I didn't participate in Vengeance because I'm on console, but I do not welcome that approach either. It is too much of a swing in the other direction.

Theignson wrote: »

I almost always run solo in Cyrodil and I don’t know why you say it isn’t fun. Sure you have to be cautious and avoid over committing yourself, eg in large battles you can easily get focused and get killed if you’ve over extended. Even if only 2 or 3 other faction players, you can get dissolved if they are skilled.

But actually that increased danger and challenge makes it more fun, I think.

1000%

There are good groups and there are bad groups.

There are good solo and bad solo players as well.

A good solo can pick off players in both if they build right, are smart and don't over extend.

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

It's an MMO. It's meant to be played in a group. You can't expect to be as strong as a group as a solo player. Under any circumstances. And I don't think there is any problem with people running coordinated sets to maximize group buffs. That's the same thing people do in high-end PVE. Its part of the game.

And if you think subclassing will be better for balance.... Then I know where you can find a golden sky shard. There are going to be people who find absolutely broken builds with subclassing and it will make the balance issue so much worse than things are right now. Not only will ball groups get stronger, but those unkillable troll tanks will be stronger. Bombs will be stronger. Gankers will be stronger. It's going to be an absolute trainwreck for a while IMO. It might be fun and chaotic, but once the dust settles, its probably going to make for an overall miserable experience.

And in PVE, subclassing is going to destroy any semblance of balance. DPS will be able to do 150-180k DPS on a trial dummy, meaning in live trial situations, they'll be doing 250k DPS or more with optimized buffs. Endgame PVE content will become very trivial unless they make it with insanely hard mechanics that only a few will be able to negotiate and get through, and overall, endgame PVE is going to also become a gong show.

I don't know how subclassing will improve role playing when the very intent of subclassing is to destroy class identity. What role is there to play if everyone is every role?

Not every group is a ballgroup/premade stacking shared heals/shields, set and skillbuffs.
There are many ways to play in group or with allies without these carries and the advantage they give while still having enaugh advantages over soloplay that almost everyone chooses them over soloplay not just for sozial reasons.
Premades are already effective enaugh without all these carries but gives them all those carries to artificially make them even stronger.

It is normal that to win alone against 6 players you have to kill all 6 using either a single target combo 6 times or an aoe combo that has less dmg and kill potential but can hit and kill multiple targets at once while getting dmg from all them that will kill average player near instantly before you can use a combo or force you into defense.
It is not normal that if you still somehow manage to land a deadly combo on one of them without the target using active defense it will still survive thanks to defensive buffs, shields or healing from the other 5.
It is also not normal that sets, buffskills, shields and heals give their full effect that is as strong as self effect to multiple players resulting in multiple times the overall effect.

OP also doesnt think subclassing to be better for balance.

Also who said he expects to win 1v12 unless they are a bomber? Ballgroups not die to 1 bomber and 30 1vXer are not enaugh to kill them.

Theignson wrote: »

I almost always run solo in Cyrodil and I don’t know why you say it isn’t fun. Sure you have to be cautious and avoid over committing yourself, eg in large battles you can easily get focused and get killed if you’ve over extended. Even if only 2 or 3 other faction players, you can get dissolved if they are skilled.

But actually that increased danger and challenge makes it more fun, I think.

I also almost always run solo in Cyrodiil but not go there anymore because it is the only way to not get ambushed and killed by every un1vXable group on sight. As soon as you see them it is usually game over with no way to win or avoid the fight and majority of fights look like this.

i have been and still run solo, and so do alot of people in my guild.
we love playing solo and its our main reason to pvp and be in eso is solo pvp against the entire server of people.

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Not every group is a ballgroup/premade stacking shared heals/shields, set and skillbuffs.
There are many ways to play in group or with allies without these carries and the advantage they give while still having enaugh advantages over soloplay that almost everyone chooses them over soloplay not just for sozial reasons.
Premades are already effective enaugh without all these carries but gives them all those carries to artificially make them even stronger.

It is normal that to win alone against 6 players you have to kill all 6 using either a single target combo 6 times or an aoe combo that has less dmg and kill potential but can hit and kill multiple targets at once while getting dmg from all them that will kill average player near instantly before you can use a combo or force you into defense.
It is not normal that if you still somehow manage to land a deadly combo on one of them without the target using active defense it will still survive thanks to defensive buffs, shields or healing from the other 5.
It is also not normal that sets, buffskills, shields and heals give their full effect that is as strong as self effect to multiple players resulting in multiple times the overall effect.

OP also doesnt think subclassing to be better for balance.

Also who said he expects to win 1v12 unless they are a bomber? Ballgroups not die to 1 bomber and 30 1vXer are not enaugh to kill them.

Not every group is a ballgroup/premade stacking shared heals/shields, set and skillbuffs.
There are many ways to play in group or with allies without these carries and the advantage they give while still having enaugh advantages over soloplay that almost everyone chooses them over soloplay not just for sozial reasons.
Premades are already effective enaugh without all these carries but gives them all those carries to artificially make them even stronger.

It is normal that to win alone against 6 players you have to kill all 6 using either a single target combo 6 times or an aoe combo that has less dmg and kill potential but can hit and kill multiple targets at once while getting dmg from all them that will kill average player near instantly before you can use a combo or force you into defense.
It is not normal that if you still somehow manage to land a deadly combo on one of them without the target using active defense it will still survive thanks to defensive buffs, shields or healing from the other 5.
It is also not normal that sets, buffskills, shields and heals give their full effect that is as strong as self effect to multiple players resulting in multiple times the overall effect.

OP also doesnt think subclassing to be better for balance.

Also who said he expects to win 1v12 unless they are a bomber? Ballgroups not die to 1 bomber and 30 1vXer are not enaugh to kill them.

Not every group is a "ballgroup" so to speak, but if my group is roaming around using brawler characters, we're all at least running echoing vigor. Those who opt to use resto staff are running radiant regeneration back bar. And we also have scribed heals that hit eachother. This isn't "ball group healstacking" this is just taking advantage of group play. Every pug group that uses these two heals is literally taking advantage of the same thing that ball groups do. And there's nothing wrong with it. And any GOOD PVPer doesn't need to rely on these in order to win a fight. Our brawler characters are built to take a lot of punishment and still burst people down with a good combo, and we all know to maintain our own heals and buffs if we want to survive. Anything we get beyond that is a plus, but not necessary to win a fight.

Furthermore, Even a fight 1 v 6 you should NOT be winning that fight under any circumstances. Yes, I'm aware there are good 1 v x'ers out there that can squirrel your group enough that they can lure you into combat situations where they can single you down one at a time and eventually wipe the group, but 1) that takes quite a bit of skill and patience (and a lot of luck re: use of terrain), but that will only work if the group of 6 does not play like a half-competent group. If the group of 6 stays disciplined, they should win that fight. Every. Single. Time.

As to the subclassing issue, my interpretation of OP's post was that he thought subclassing was going to be better for balancing because everyone has access to the same skill sets (at least in theory).

Lastly, ball groups are not invincible. Even a group of non-ballers can take them down. But it takes a coordinated effort, which you simply aren't going to have (or aren't often going to have) with a pug group. My guild only plays "ball group" once a week, but we have open ball group to allow new players to try out ball group style of play, and we have brawler nights and casual PVP nights, and we often take on ball groups without optimal builds. We can and often do end up killing these ball groups or at least killing enough of them to force a retreat. I'm not saying we don't die our fair share, but that is just the nature of the game - that happens even on ball group night.

Your group of brawlers using echoing vigor, radiant regen and multitarget scribing heals while not a ballgroup is still a premade with cross healing which majority of groups are not.
Many groups are just a few players in solo builds not using group buffs and would have more fun if group buffs get removed either.

I didnt say players should be able to win a 1v6!
My point was that it is already such a disadvantage to 1vX that there is usually no chance to kill one of them when they have no group buffs(which is not a problem as it is realistic and normal)so giving group carries to keep member alive when receiving dmg lethal to a player without isnt needed to make playing in a group wort it but makes them artificially even stronger than they would naturally be and a huge problem to balance.

And even when a solo player manages to kill one of the group (which is already almost impossible to do while getting attacked by group before getting killed when the target has no group buffs and more likely done by surprise before they react or from a castle wall (with siege) ), he still has to kill the other players to kill the group.

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

It's an MMO. It's meant to be played in a group. You can't expect to be as strong as a group as a solo player. Under any circumstances. And I don't think there is any problem with people running coordinated sets to maximize group buffs. That's the same thing people do in high-end PVE. Its part of the game.

And if you think subclassing will be better for balance.... Then I know where you can find a golden sky shard. There are going to be people who find absolutely broken builds with subclassing and it will make the balance issue so much worse than things are right now. Not only will ball groups get stronger, but those unkillable troll tanks will be stronger. Bombs will be stronger. Gankers will be stronger. It's going to be an absolute trainwreck for a while IMO. It might be fun and chaotic, but once the dust settles, its probably going to make for an overall miserable experience.

And in PVE, subclassing is going to destroy any semblance of balance. DPS will be able to do 150-180k DPS on a trial dummy, meaning in live trial situations, they'll be doing 250k DPS or more with optimized buffs. Endgame PVE content will become very trivial unless they make it with insanely hard mechanics that only a few will be able to negotiate and get through, and overall, endgame PVE is going to also become a gong show.

I don't know how subclassing will improve role playing when the very intent of subclassing is to destroy class identity. What role is there to play if everyone is every role?

Long time solo pvper here.

Just thinking back, during my time in Cyrodiil I never really expected (or tried) to be as 'strong' as a group. Now, I will affirm that being solo, at first seldomly however over time more and more, many times now even, I can accomplish more than an average group can or at least frequently as much. This is even under the worst circumstances.

Saying this, brings doubt, I'm sure. Yet, the problem with many groups is everyone is like trying to do the same role. You want everyone siege, well fine but um who is guarding the flanks? Who is watching your back? You want everyone on ram, well fine but don't get mad when everyone gets bombed and dies. And that's the problem with groups and a strong group centric focus is one person messing up can bring down many more skilled fighters. Where am I going with this. Well, recently there's been some changes on my end and a bit of a shake-up, but it wasn't me who was shaken. I was one of the ones doing the 'shaking' and a certain server has finally been delivered some much-needed change. Would you like to know why it happened? Because they all relied on (1) or (2) PvP Guilds to do everything for them. Outside of this, their groups were good for running a siege but bad at everything else. Many times, well-known guild officers would get on the Mic and ask solo players to leave the server.

Solo players left them behind. That's right, we left that faction for other factions who understand that you need groups but you also need people who are like 'Palace Guards' that can accomplish amazing things on their own. And that's what happens when you take such a strong stance and be consistently rude and dismissive of the talent that solo players bring to the table. That's why they fell. At the same time, when you talk about coordinated play, well to me that sounds like a code-word for ball groups. I think groups should be given reasonable bonuses. Even being mostly solo, I join groups once in a while and have never been against working with a group. But the way things are now, you have people in groups who are weak, but they know how to spam buffs and learn rotations. Many of these folks don't care to really know how to play or fight, they just spam the buffs and spitefully wreck everyone in their path without even realizing how much damage they are doing. Its like a bunch of drunks with shotguns riding thru town on a Friday night.

The difference is all I have is what I have. I have my word, my honor and that's it. I don't have 10-15 people spamming me with heals while one person is put on a pedestal above everyone else, in PvP, which is immoral. It should almost be like a TOS violation, how isn't that exploiting? What's the counter-play to that? Let him fight us without 10-15 bad players spamming heals. You know, groups are fine and all but Vengeance is important because that is the best evidence so far at how greatly solo players working together can affect a battle.

To no one in particular, please don't think about the challenges you face with Vengeance and then compare those feelings to us solo players, in similar fashion to how people view ball groups outside Vengeance. Vengeance demonstrated in brutal business fashion where the talent existed. It showed what guild leaders too, knew what they were talking about and who was just there trolling and spamming garbage, making life miserable for others in PvP. There is a difference between coordination and trolling other players, for hours, no dying, exploiting groups mechanics. What I believe op was saying, was that solo players can be coordinated also. A ball group doesn't coordinate with anyone. No, they don't care, they're just like a bunch of drunks coming to town to cause trouble. They don't care about anyone else. I've seen it. I've tasted their wrath, and I will never, ever support those folks ever again. People need to stop holding up their thrones, let them crash under their own weight because they will not uplift you in return. And you know what, let me tell you something. Let me tell everyone reading this right now that you can be strong without a group, without a guild. It is a hard road but every journey worth doing requires us to walk forward. And you're never going to move forward hiding in the back and hanging out where its safe, because as hopefully more and more people are seeing now, safety is not just about numbers it's also about your attitude.

It's cool to be coordinated but a group that won't coordinate with anyone else is a cancer. It's part of the problem, NOT solo players who are playing the game and existing, in many cases making unique contributions that a group is simply not capable of managing by themselves.

Vulkunne wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

It's an MMO. It's meant to be played in a group. You can't expect to be as strong as a group as a solo player. Under any circumstances. And I don't think there is any problem with people running coordinated sets to maximize group buffs. That's the same thing people do in high-end PVE. Its part of the game.

And if you think subclassing will be better for balance.... Then I know where you can find a golden sky shard. There are going to be people who find absolutely broken builds with subclassing and it will make the balance issue so much worse than things are right now. Not only will ball groups get stronger, but those unkillable troll tanks will be stronger. Bombs will be stronger. Gankers will be stronger. It's going to be an absolute trainwreck for a while IMO. It might be fun and chaotic, but once the dust settles, its probably going to make for an overall miserable experience.

And in PVE, subclassing is going to destroy any semblance of balance. DPS will be able to do 150-180k DPS on a trial dummy, meaning in live trial situations, they'll be doing 250k DPS or more with optimized buffs. Endgame PVE content will become very trivial unless they make it with insanely hard mechanics that only a few will be able to negotiate and get through, and overall, endgame PVE is going to also become a gong show.

I don't know how subclassing will improve role playing when the very intent of subclassing is to destroy class identity. What role is there to play if everyone is every role?

Long time solo pvper here.

Just thinking back, during my time in Cyrodiil I never really expected (or tried) to be as 'strong' as a group. Now, I will affirm that being solo, many times, sometimes I can accomplish more than a group or frequently as much. This is even under the worst circumstances.

Saying this, brings doubt, I'm sure. Yet, the problem with many groups is everyone is like trying to do the same role. You want everyone siege, well fine but um who is guarding the flanks? Who is watching your back? You want everyone on ram, well fine but don't get mad when everyone gets bombed and dies. And that's the problem with groups and a strong group centric focus is one person messing up can bring down many more skilled fighters. Where am I going with this. Well, recently there's been some changes on my end and a bit of a shake-up, but it wasn't me who was shaken. I was one of the ones doing the 'shaking' and a certain server has been finally delivered some much-needed change. Would you like to know why it happened? Because they all relied on (1) or (2) PvP Guilds to do everything for them. Outside of this, their groups were good for running a siege but bad at everything else. Many times, well-known guild officers would get on the Mic and ask solo players to leave the server.

Solo players left them behind. That's right, we left that faction for other factions who understand that you need groups but you also need people who are like 'Palace Guards' that can accomplish amazing things on their own. And that's what happens when you take such a strong stance and be consistently rude and dismissive of the talent that solo players bring to the table. That's why they fell. At the same time, when you talk about coordinated play, well to me that sounds like a code-word for ball groups. I think groups should be given reasonable bonuses. Even being mostly solo, I join groups once in a while and have never been against working with a group. But the way things are now, you have people in groups who are weak, but they know how to spam buffs and learn rotations. Many of these folks don't care to really know how to play or fight, they just spam the buffs and spitefully wreck everyone in their path without even realizing how much damage they are doing. Its like a bunch of drunks with shotguns riding thru town on a Friday night.

The difference is all I have is what I have. I have my word, my honor and that's it. I don't have 10-15 people spamming me with heals while one person is put on a pedestal above everyone else, in PvP, which is immoral. It should almost be like a TOS violation, how isn't that exploiting? What's the counter-play to that? Let him fight us without 10-15 bad players spamming heals. You know, groups are fine and all but Vengeance is important because that is the best evidence so far at how greatly solo players working together can affect a battle.

To no one in particular, please don't think about Vengeance and compare us solo players to ball groups. Vengeance demonstrated in brutal business fashion where the talent existed. It showed what guild leaders too, knew what they were talking about and who was just there trolling and spamming garbage, making life miserable for others in PvP. There is a difference between coordination and trolling other players, for hours, no dying, exploiting groups mechanics. What I believe op was saying, was that solo players can be coordinated also. A ball group doesn't coordinate with anyone. No, they don't care, they're just like a bunch of drunks coming to town to cause trouble. They don't care about anyone else. I've seen it. I've tasted their wrath, and I will never, ever support those folks ever again. People need to stop holding up their thrones, let them crash under their own weight because they will not uplift you in return.

It's cool to be coordinated but a group that won't coordinate with anyone else is a cancer. It's part of the problem, NOT solo players who are playing the game and existing, in many cases making unique contributions that a group is simply not capable of managing by themselves.

I don’t normally agree with you, but you are spot on 100%. Our faction has a dedicated group of solos who clean up home keeps and resources together while the rest of the faction is pushing enemy keeps and going for scrolls. Of course as soon as those fires are put out then we can assist offensive objectives. We can check flagged keeps and report they are safe, and repair while groups are directed elsewhere. When a ball group is in our keeps, we may be fighting them ungrouped but a well-placed and well-timed negate and push, together with some siege can bring them down.

Groups aren’t always playing the map and are often just looking for the biggest source of AP, and that might not benefit us as a faction.

When the 1vXers started to get into groups of 4 and tower hump, that was them telling us that solo play in Cyrodiil was an exercise in frustration and not worth the effort.

To those people who make snide remarks about Vengeance on how it was just a zergfest, I would say this: I still felt able to do things in vengeance as a solo player, whether that was disrupting backline and killing siegers, defending my own siegers against aggressive enemies, or, cherish the thought, or having the audacity to be within 34 meters of an enemy group without getting Rush of Agonied, chained crowd-controlled, and then instant-killed.

In sum it was fun and possibly to have the feeling of accomplishing something other than doing the whole Keystone Cops thing in towers or watching the ball group run around the 3rd floor at Arrius for the 57th time, impervious to everything.

Subclassing will absolutely widen the divide between the Sweatlords on their Nightdenplars who will make Hardened Ward sorcs seem squishy and those folks who don;t take this game terribly seriously but still occasionally want to have fun on a Saturday night or what not.

Markytous wrote: »

I also had fun running solo in Vengeance fighting behind enemy lines, LOSing and burning enemy camps. It was absolutely doable and I felt my choices were greatly being rewarded. There are a few tricks that many players refuse to utilize because they're used to ballgrouping or crutching on sets that make them unkillable damage.

I was able to escape and reposition against outnumbered situations in Vengeance (no I was not a Nightblade). The game has a beautifully constructed set of core combat mechanics that ran beautifully in Vengeance and it is only getting better with the added Stamina skills for the next one.

Keep pretending Vengeance is just a zergfest. Keep saying that while clutching at Rallying Cry and Rush of Agony as a bailout. Vengeance was personal skill on display. People just got mad about getting exposed.

There was ZERO skill involved in vengeance mode. The bigger group won the fight. That's all there was to it. Nobody got mad "because they were exposed". They got mad because there is ZERO skill gap in vengeance mode. Vengeance was a mindless zerg fest and nothing more. The only people who liked it are not PvP mains.

LPapirius wrote: »

Markytous wrote: »

I also had fun running solo in Vengeance fighting behind enemy lines, LOSing and burning enemy camps. It was absolutely doable and I felt my choices were greatly being rewarded. There are a few tricks that many players refuse to utilize because they're used to ballgrouping or crutching on sets that make them unkillable damage.

I was able to escape and reposition against outnumbered situations in Vengeance (no I was not a Nightblade). The game has a beautifully constructed set of core combat mechanics that ran beautifully in Vengeance and it is only getting better with the added Stamina skills for the next one.

Keep pretending Vengeance is just a zergfest. Keep saying that while clutching at Rallying Cry and Rush of Agony as a bailout. Vengeance was personal skill on display. People just got mad about getting exposed.

There was ZERO skill involved in vengeance mode. The bigger group won the fight. That's all there was to it. Nobody got mad "because they were exposed". They got mad because there is ZERO skill gap in vengeance mode. Vengeance was a mindless zerg fest and nothing more. The only people who liked it are not PvP mains.

Frequently the lines that I was fighting from were smaller than the hordes of folks coming at us and we more or less terminated them with prejudice. That's what was one of the things that made Vengeance great, was how it forced players to rely on more traditional tactics, and this resulted in showing us who has skill, who really understands how to wield power in PvP, who understands how to work together (group or not) and those who did not. That's why I think so many had trouble because they wanted a group, or a proc set(s) or a ball group or something to do everything for them in a campaign which more or less demanded everyone to carry their own weight or die slowly, not unlike a Greek Phalanx.

I can affirm that my solo DK, in concert with the 5 or 10 random people I was usually with... brought down... several times... larger battle-lines and keeps that were larger than the ones I was with, in one instance they were getting re-enforced from Alessia and we still crushed them eventually by shifting our siege line against the defenders flank and made our way inside the keep. That's what made Vengeance special, the uh bombs and procs and all that stuff was gone. Vengeance stripped players down to how well do you know how to deal with a situation when a computer is not going to do everything for you. How confident are you, do you know your limits, do you really understand how skills affect things, do you know how to work well with other people instead of sitting in the back letting 1/3 of the group do all the fighting for you and not caring.

Now you might say the larger battleline always won but what you're missing is the fact that battle lines grew fast. No one worried about who was leading, who was there, who was doing what they just got on that line to help. And so I would counter your claim by stating that more often than a larger battle-line winning was two large battle lines duking it out, which could only boil down to a test of skill, either managing the line with moving people around or one battle-line, though it be smaller, larger, whatever it was if there was a bunch of skilled solo players there the size of the enemy was less relevant. In some instances, their size didn't matter at all.

So, no saying Vengeance had zero skilled involved and the larger group always wins is not accurate. Maybe that's what you got out of it and that's fine but many times both myself and other solo players that I know have been with the game for a while really showed what we all could do. Now, in fairness, yes there were situations in Vengeance where the other side could dominate. But, at least to me, it really felt more like a traditional sort of warfare with battlelines and more use of strategy. Note, this is not just my own personal bias, however anyone who wants to learn more about this perspective should check out any of the History channels on YouTube which covers the careers of Caesar, Hannibal, Alexander as well as Histories of various ancient countries such as Rome, Persia, a History of war in Europe, any of these things and I'm confident you will come to understand that there's more to warfare than a large force just spamming their way thru a lesser force.

That is the entire problem I have with the way PvP is currently being handled in Cyrodiil. The other teams don't have a sporting chance against things like Rush of Agony and organized ball groups. Remember, you don't have to be elite to be in a coordinated group... or to coordinate with other players. There's just too much of this childish crap going on and I sincerely hope ZOS can help us fix PvP for the better when they are free to do so. I'm thankful for what is but I'm not down with all of it. Sitting in silence and conformity serves no one and I'm just not gonna do it.

LPapirius wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

Markytous wrote: »

I also had fun running solo in Vengeance fighting behind enemy lines, LOSing and burning enemy camps. It was absolutely doable and I felt my choices were greatly being rewarded. There are a few tricks that many players refuse to utilize because they're used to ballgrouping or crutching on sets that make them unkillable damage.

I was able to escape and reposition against outnumbered situations in Vengeance (no I was not a Nightblade). The game has a beautifully constructed set of core combat mechanics that ran beautifully in Vengeance and it is only getting better with the added Stamina skills for the next one.

Keep pretending Vengeance is just a zergfest. Keep saying that while clutching at Rallying Cry and Rush of Agony as a bailout. Vengeance was personal skill on display. People just got mad about getting exposed.

There was ZERO skill involved in vengeance mode. The bigger group won the fight. That's all there was to it. Nobody got mad "because they were exposed". They got mad because there is ZERO skill gap in vengeance mode. Vengeance was a mindless zerg fest and nothing more. The only people who liked it are not PvP mains.

Frequently the lines that I was fighting from were smaller than the hordes of folks coming from the south and west and in many notable instances we destroyed them all with prejudice. That's what was one of the things that made Vengeance great, was how it forced players to rely on more traditional tactics, and this resulted in showing us who has skill, who really understands how to wield power in PvP, who understands how to work together (group or not) and those who did not. That's why I think so many had trouble because they wanted a group, or a proc set(s) or a ball group or something to do everything for them in a campaign which more or less demanded everyone to carry their own weight or die slowly, not unlike a Greek Phalanx.

I can affirm that my solo DK, in concert with the 5 or 10 random people I was usually with... brought down... several times... larger battle-lines and keeps that were larger than the ones I was with, in one instance they were getting re-enforced from Alessia and we still crushed them eventually by shifting our siege line against the defenders flank and made our way inside the keep. That's what made Vengeance special, the uh bombs and procs and all that stuff was gone. Vengeance stripped players down to how well do you know how to deal with a situation when a computer is not going to do everything for you. How confident are you, do you know your limits, do you really understand how skills affect things, do you know how to work well with other people instead of sitting in the back letting 1/3 of the group do all the fighting for you and not caring. Running around in your smug ball group not rezzing, not escorting scrolls, leaving scroll runners, hammer wielders or just people that you don't like, to get stomped on while your ball group just sits there. 10 to 15 people healing one person, but your DC ball group can't provide escort or even one heals for a scroll runner who could have made it. He could have made it, save for you. And now, the server results are showing us that it is you guys who are wanting.

Now you might say the larger battleline always won but what you're missing is the fact that battle lines grew fast. No one worried about who was leading, who was there, who was doing what they just got on that line to help. And so I would counter you claim by stating that more often than a larger battle-line winning was two large battle lines duking it out, which could only boil down to a test of skill, either managing the line with moving people around or one battle-line, though it be smaller, larger, whatever it was if there was a bunch of skilled solo players there the size of the enemy was less relevant. In some instances, their size didn't matter at all.

So, no saying Vengeance had zero skilled involved and the larger group always wins is not accurate. Maybe that's what you got out of it and that's fine but many times both myself and other solo players that I know have been with the game for a while really showed what we all could do. Now, in fairness, yes there were situations in Vengeance where the other side could dominate. But, at least to me, it really felt more like a traditional sort of warfare with battlelines and more use of strategy. Note, this is not just my own personal bias, however anyone who wants to learn more about this perspective should check out any of the History channels on YouTube which covers the careers of Caesar, Hannibal, Alexander as well as Histories of various ancient countries such as Rome, Persia, a History of war in Europe, any of these things and I'm confident you will come to understand that there's more to warfare than a large force just spamming their way thru a lesser force.

That is the entire problem I have with the way PvP is currently being handled in Cyrodiil. The other teams don't have a sporting chance against things like Rush of Agony and organized ball groups. Remember, you don't have to be elite to be in a coordinated group... or to coordinate with other players. There's just too much of this childish crap going on and I sincerely hope ZOS can help us fix PvP for the better when they are free to do so. I'm thankful for what is but I'm not down with all of it. Sitting in silence and conformity serves no one and I'm just not gonna do it.

I have 5 GO's and have been playing in Cyro nearly every day since September 2014. Very few have more time into ESO and main PvP more frequently than I do. Subclassing and vengeance mode are the last straw most likely. I hope I'm wrong, but I've seen this movie before, more than once, and I know how it ends.

Hope it's not as bad as that day over Macho Grande.