No Updates To Subclassing This Week?

SaintJohnHM · April 28

It looks like they're a week behind on updates to multiclassing, no changes this week. That doesn't seem like it's going to leave enough time to fix all the massive problems before it's supposed to be released.

coop500 · April 28

LOL I am actually impressed by how little work there is

SaintJohnHM · April 28

Yeah, the big piece of hope we were clinging to was that usually the big changes are supposed to be on week 3.

sarahthes · April 28

They said in the notes that it's coming week 4. One hopes that's because they're not taking it lightly but are working on it and giving it the attention it deserves.

coop500 · April 28

sarahthes wrote: »

They said in the notes that it's coming week 4. One hopes that's because they're not taking it lightly but are working on it and giving it the attention it deserves.

That means no chance to change it again later when they expectedly nerf all the wrong things into Oblivion lol

Cominfordatoothbrush · April 28

Really wish they'd just shelf the idea until they come up with an implementation that won't kill non multiclassed builds

Estin · April 28

I'm hoping they are giving subclassing the attention it needs instead of tweaking class skill lines to fit in with subclassing, but Week 4 PTS is usually the last update and that doesn't leave enough time to work out any kinks if the much needed overhaul to subclassing is implemented.

What I don't like is how the 2025 Director's Letter says the new content cycle allows for new systems to be released when they're ready instead of pushed out for a June release. Subclassing is obviously not ready to release, but we've yet to see any indication of it being delayed so it can ready for release. Instead, it feels it is only getting quick workarounds by nerfing classes to prevent subclassing from being too overpowered. That isn't the way and will introduce lasting problems into the game. As it stands currently, choosing not to subclass will put you at a massive disadvantage.

ADarklore · April 28

coop500 wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

They said in the notes that it's coming week 4. One hopes that's because they're not taking it lightly but are working on it and giving it the attention it deserves.

That means no chance to change it again later when they expectedly nerf all the wrong things into Oblivion lol

This is typically they case. They do a round of 'adjustments' during the PTS and then when it releases, bring the HAMMER... leaving many players shocked, frustrated and walking away from the game. Then, 'we'll continue to balance in future updates"... usually months later, or never.

Cooperharley · April 28

Their whole development process is painfully slow. There must be an insane amount of bureaucracy. You would never see such little stuff being done from other big name titles IMO. ZOS isn't small either, they had 450+ something developers when they unionized. What's going on?

SaintJohnHM · April 28

Cooperharley wrote: »

Their whole development process is painfully slow. There must be an insane amount of bureaucracy. You would never see such little stuff being done from other big name titles IMO. ZOS isn't small either, they had 450+ something developers when they unionized. What's going on?

I don't know enough about game development to know whether they're slow or not, but it seems bad that they'd want to skip a week of testing and feedback, and also they didn't really give us any indication that they understood what our current concerns are when they told us they're skipping an update this week.

SkaiFaith · April 28

"One does not simply release Oblivion Remastered and keep working"
I'm joking, sorry but I couldn't resist XD

AmishDefector · April 28

Cooperharley wrote: »

Their whole development process is painfully slow. There must be an insane amount of bureaucracy. You would never see such little stuff being done from other big name titles IMO. ZOS isn't small either, they had 450+ something developers when they unionized. What's going on?

Well you need at least 200 for the server's various hamster wheels. To be honest the issue here is actually how fast they are moving on subclassing. And that one week of final testing on new changes could lead to insufficient testing. I would not be mad about a 5th week of PTS to get this right.

StarOfElyon · April 28

This should have been started in January to give it more time to cook. Subclassing is NOT READY in its current state. This is going to be VERY bad.

SaintJohnHM · April 28

AmishDefector wrote: »

Cooperharley wrote: »

Their whole development process is painfully slow. There must be an insane amount of bureaucracy. You would never see such little stuff being done from other big name titles IMO. ZOS isn't small either, they had 450+ something developers when they unionized. What's going on?

Well you need at least 200 for the server's various hamster wheels. To be honest the issue here is actually how fast they are moving on subclassing. And that one week of final testing on new changes could lead to insufficient testing. I would not be mad about a 5th week of PTS to get this right.

As far as I'm concerned, they can take as many weeks as they need to get it right before releasing.

Zyaneth_Bal · April 28

SaintJohnHM wrote: »

AmishDefector wrote: »

Cooperharley wrote: »

Their whole development process is painfully slow. There must be an insane amount of bureaucracy. You would never see such little stuff being done from other big name titles IMO. ZOS isn't small either, they had 450+ something developers when they unionized. What's going on?

Well you need at least 200 for the server's various hamster wheels. To be honest the issue here is actually how fast they are moving on subclassing. And that one week of final testing on new changes could lead to insufficient testing. I would not be mad about a 5th week of PTS to get this right.

As far as I'm concerned, they can take as many weeks as they need to get it right before releasing.

Unfortunately quality and game’s health aren’t priorities at zos

Cooperharley · April 28

SaintJohnHM wrote: »

Cooperharley wrote: »

Their whole development process is painfully slow. There must be an insane amount of bureaucracy. You would never see such little stuff being done from other big name titles IMO. ZOS isn't small either, they had 450+ something developers when they unionized. What's going on?

I don't know enough about game development to know whether they're slow or not, but it seems bad that they'd want to skip a week of testing and feedback, and also they didn't really give us any indication that they understood what our current concerns are when they told us they're skipping an update this week.

Look at any other major developer and they’re able to have rolling weekly combat changes. We’re stuck in a 5-6 weeks PTS cycle once a quarter and then have to let it ride for 3 months until the next cycle. What gives?

tsaescishoeshiner · April 28

It makes sense to space out subclassing changes because there's so much to consider for every change. For example, this week's simple Assassination nerf impacts one of the most popular DPS subclassing lines that almost every high-end build was using.

Whatever changes in week 4 PTS for subclassing will be looked at again before the patch launches, and then we'll presumably keep getting regular combat updates (maybe more frequently while subclassing settles in).

If anything, it might make sense to have a slightly longer PTS for subclassing so the updates could be spaced out like this, but that doesn't appear to be planned.

Markytous · April 28

Delay Subclassing. Heck, I wouldn't cry if it was canceled. Can't wait to be harassed in-game for using the "wrong" skill lines.

sarahthes · April 28

Markytous wrote: »

Delay Subclassing. Heck, I wouldn't cry if it was canceled. Can't wait to be harassed in-game for using the "wrong" skill lines.

Casual raiding in and dungeoning is incredibly toxic, true.

StarOfElyon · April 28

They said they would only be releasing content when it's ready and yet, here we are, facing something that isn't ready being forced through.

Zyaneth_Bal · April 28

StarOfElyon wrote: »

They said they would only be releasing content when it's ready and yet, here we are, facing something that isn't ready being forced through.

They don’t give a damn about their promises. They see players not as people but as cash.

Disregarding and even despising their players might be one of zos’s main flaws tbh. Everything stems from there.

Stx · April 28

They have never been good at actually implementing class balance changes. That has been one of my main criticisms over the years. When they do big updates, the things they choose to change are usually just really poor choices (update 35, the previous DoT changes), or they barely change anything like the years following update 35. They leave things alone for years that are clearly imbalanced or need attention.

I am very disappointed that we have gone two weeks with basically no changes. It’s so weird that they show off how big their team is in streams but the patch notes are always so tiny.

SilverIce58 · April 28

Itd be nice if we got some insight into whats coming. Doesnt have to be every change, but at least something to let us know theyre listening.

BahometZ · April 29

Plus ça change...
A smart organisation might consider getting their ducks in a row before releasing said ducks into the wild (ie., Balance class skills lines *then* release multiclassing, not both at the same time.).

I'm guessing the numbers are real bad and they were forced to push this forward by higher-ups.

Dino-Jr · April 29

From reading these forums it seems like the volume & diversity of feedback provided was really low to start and dropped off a bit after week 2. I could see this latest lighter patch being a mix of needing to take another week to get some of the changes done and also collecting more of what is ultimately pretty limited feedback on the current build.

From an outsiders perspective the subclass feedback thread and character abilities threads honestly aren’t very active.

Fully agree it seems like a quick turnaround week 4 if thats how its supposed to work though.

Giving it more time seems logical but theres also a potential argument to be made that their received test feedback is so low volume that the amount of time this would need to stay open to make the feedback useful is impractical to plan around given the scale of their stated goals on whats changing.

supabicboi · April 29

am I insane to still have a sliver of hope that they will do sth abt sorc skills? after all the discussions right after the reveal, please for the love of molags bals, please, I will be the first to stand and cheer for the first right direction zos has taken in years, please dont kill ma sorc

SaintJohnHM · April 29

supabicboi wrote: »

am I insane to still have a sliver of hope that they will do sth abt sorc skills? after all the discussions right after the reveal, please for the love of molags bals, please, I will be the first to stand and cheer for the first right direction zos has taken in years, please dont kill ma sorc

They haven't given any indication they heard our concerns about the massive gutting to sorcs and to pure classes in general or op damage from certain combinations etc etc etc etc.

I really don't know why they're rushing something that we weren't really asking for, isn't really "subcassing" but is rather massively imbalanced multi-classing that takes away all class identity many of us have built our fun on, and could've been so much cooler if it was really sub-classing with new skill lines for each class that give them more specific flavour and specialty.

sleepy_worm · April 29

They'll release it broken, nerf a bunch of other things later, and then leave the project unfinished when they move on to another project.

Based on past experience.

ceruulean · April 29

Cooperharley wrote: »

Their whole development process is painfully slow. There must be an insane amount of bureaucracy. You would never see such little stuff being done from other big name titles IMO. ZOS isn't small either, they had 450+ something developers when they unionized. What's going on?

Yeah this is just weird. It's 2025, most of software development has moved on to monthly patches. This whole "waterfall process," where you develop a huge feature without getting customer feedback, is totally 2009.

Like honestly, it would be better if ZoS split updates into their own mini cycles, like the animation changes to a 1-2 month dev/feedback/improvement cycle, then did another 1-2 month of subclassing feedback/bug fixing cycle, then 1-2 month of new furnishing, etc.

Maggusemm · April 29

there have been updates on April 28th.

sleepy_worm · April 29

Maggusemm wrote: »

there have been updates on April 28th.

Are you sure you want to use plural there?