A (Temporary) Fix for Subclassing

CaptainRele
CaptainRele
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Right now the big divide on subclassing is between more casual players who are excited about the idea of getting to roleplay more accurate/enjoyable characters by taking different skill lines, and more endgame oriented players who are seeing both insane power creep AND the nerfing of beloved classes and skills in anticipation of trying to avoid power creep. Right now I see no way of pleasing both - canceling subclassing entirely after it was announced would be a disaster, and if it goes live as is (as of week one PTS), it's a disaster for endgame players. Damage up, Frankenstein monster builds, all while tank specs are in trouble.
My idea to please both is two parts:
1. Take back every single nerf, no matter how OP. Give sorcs back their healing hardened ward, bring dk sustain back up and let them gen ulti during magma shell, revert that warden change from buffing frost damage back to all damage, change templar beam back to the shorter channel, etc. If people want to make insane combos and unkillable tanks, let them. Let them nuke world bosses and harrowstorms and the dreugh king in fungal grotto 1. But also...
2. Disable subclassing in any scored instance (arenas and trials), vet instance (veteran dungeons), and Cyrodiil/IC. Just disable it entirely. Revert all skill lines back to your base class, refund skill points, make people reinvest them. Give them a warning before going in maybe, or save presets for taken skills/passives should you enter a subclassing forbidden zone. This means subclassing is allowed only in overland, public dungeons/delves, quest instances, houses, and normal difficulty instances (I may have missed a few).
For the casual players who do not want to set foot in a veteran dungeon or trial or anywhere with pvp (a pretty high amount of players), this affects them in absolutely no way. You still get your storm calling/winters embrace Maormer storm mage roleplay character to have fun with as you do the new dlc storyline and maybe try to duo the new dungeons on normal with companions. Duelers can still duel with subclassing to test the potential of it on live, and parsers can test overpowered builds on the dummy. But for the places where it matters in a competitive sense: no subclassing.
Think of it this way: if ZOS lets the 170k parses go live and then pulls them back by further nerfing skills, people would riot. "How could they let this go live after we warned them?" World records will get shattered and never broken again (well, not for another 5 years when power creep catches up). We already have another U35 in the making - please don't do further nerfs of skills that will require us to subclass just to crawl back to current numbers.
Versus getting ahead of the issue, realizing the power creep is so SO much worse than they anticipated (I refuse to believe a 50% damage increase is in line with what ZOS expected), and stopping it in scored instances (and Cyro/IC, but my experience is PvE so I cannot speak as much for them) before it's too late. I think players would be less upset getting denied an insane damage increase if it was "just a week one PTS thing" than if ZOS let it go to live and then got nerfed.
DISCLAIMER: I have no clue if this is feasible though. I know using the armory assistant is disabled in scored instances, but I don't know if this kind of idea is even feasible to code this close to release date. What I do know is that right now, subclassing is a mess. Some combos are insanely overpowered with subclassing, while other classes got hit with the nerf hammer in anticipation for subclassing and just made the base class worse. You shouldn't be required to subclass to earn back your power and give up your class identity (daedric summoning...). And if it goes live as is and then gets nerfed, everyone loses. But more casual players really want it for themselves, and at the more casual end of gameplay, it's impact is way smaller. So let it remain in those casual spaces, but rein it in for endgame please!
  • Lord_Hev
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    An even simpler fix that is permanent. Subclassing is treated as an actual system where the skillines being subclass use a subclass variant of it -seperate- and individual. Therefore, they can be properly balanced without nerfing classes in anticipation of broken combinations.
    Edited by Lord_Hev on 21 April 2025 04:54
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  • BretonMage
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    They do need to roll back some nerfs. Indications that they're willing to force people to subclass to remain competitive was massively disappointing.
    Lord_Hev wrote: »
    An even simpler fix that is permanent. Subclassing is treated as an actual system where the skillines being subclass use a subclass variant of it -seperate- and individual. Therefore, they can be properly balanced without nerfing classes in anticipation of broken combinations.

    That's a good idea.

    They do need to go through every combination of skill lines in any case, I don't know why they didn't do that before it went to PTS. They can't have intended a 50% increase in DPS, surely.
  • incite
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    @CaptainRele @Lord_Hev

    What both they suggested sounds good to me.
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  • Sootica
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    2. Disable subclassing in any scored instance (arenas and trials), vet instance (veteran dungeons), and Cyrodiil/IC. Just disable it entirely.

    Supportive of this.
    • Disable subclassing in PvP all together.
    • Disable subclassing in scored PvE instances, or keep both a class and a subclass record.
  • Maggusemm
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    Subclassing will greatly improve the possibilities and is a perfect idea also for scored instances. It is part of making older instances easier, which is a principle of the game.

    Image, for example Rockgrove Hardmode or Lucent Citadel hardmode will be acessible for a larger playerbase. That is great. And the endgame community can focus on the new trial.
  • TaxiDriver2116
    TaxiDriver2116
    Soul Shriven
    I fully agree with this. It solves the balancing nightmare of subclassing without taking it away from role players. Otherwise, there’s just no way you’re going to make everyone happy.
  • CaptainRele
    CaptainRele
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    Maggusemm wrote: »
    Subclassing will greatly improve the possibilities and is a perfect idea also for scored instances. It is part of making older instances easier, which is a principle of the game.

    Image, for example Rockgrove Hardmode or Lucent Citadel hardmode will be acessible for a larger playerbase. That is great. And the endgame community can focus on the new trial.

    Nope. Subclassing isn't going to suddenly make you flip your mirror on time on Orphic Shattered Shard, or not cross lines on Xoryn. Subclassing isn't going to keep you from bombing the group on Bahsei hm. Subclassing won't stop dome collisions or deluge wipes or missed wave rolls in DSR. If your idea of making newer trials more accessible means just increasing damage potential, then you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what actually stops people from getting trifectas or even hard mode clears.
    Maybe they can get in the group easier - assuming guilds don't also increase their requirements because "it's so easy to hit 150k now" (they will). They're still going to prog DSR twins because the new guy can't handle jumps and bashes.
  • Ragnarok0130
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    Maggusemm wrote: »
    Subclassing will greatly improve the possibilities and is a perfect idea also for scored instances. It is part of making older instances easier, which is a principle of the game.

    Image, for example Rockgrove Hardmode or Lucent Citadel hardmode will be acessible for a larger playerbase. That is great. And the endgame community can focus on the new trial.

    Nope. Subclassing isn't going to suddenly make you flip your mirror on time on Orphic Shattered Shard, or not cross lines on Xoryn. Subclassing isn't going to keep you from bombing the group on Bahsei hm. Subclassing won't stop dome collisions or deluge wipes or missed wave rolls in DSR. If your idea of making newer trials more accessible means just increasing damage potential, then you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what actually stops people from getting trifectas or even hard mode clears.
    Maybe they can get in the group easier - assuming guilds don't also increase their requirements because "it's so easy to hit 150k now" (they will). They're still going to prog DSR twins because the new guy can't handle jumps and bashes.

    Indeed, mechanics are the real gate keepers. How many groups have to prog the Twins (vMOL or vDSR), or do the bubble prog in vDSR? DPS will only allow us to do easy DPS races like kill the sun faster in Bahsei.
  • SugaComa
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    As a console gamer we do t get to test on the dynamics of this subclassing system, but I can see issues evolving.

    Why not integrate subclasses into the scribing function. You convert one of your skills to that of the skill, but you keep your own class passives

    All zos need to do is maybe realign the skill lines so the three lines line up among all classes ...

    For most classes the passives fit, this allows role players to change a Templar to a full sorc in skill animations and active stats,

    So you would need to to scribe say jabs for crystal frags ... These are both the damage dealers main skill so your swapping like for like, now any passive triggered by jabs is triggered by frags
  • Koshka
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    Maggusemm wrote: »
    Subclassing will greatly improve the possibilities and is a perfect idea also for scored instances. It is part of making older instances easier, which is a principle of the game.

    Image, for example Rockgrove Hardmode or Lucent Citadel hardmode will be acessible for a larger playerbase. That is great. And the endgame community can focus on the new trial.

    Nope. Subclassing isn't going to suddenly make you flip your mirror on time on Orphic Shattered Shard, or not cross lines on Xoryn. Subclassing isn't going to keep you from bombing the group on Bahsei hm. Subclassing won't stop dome collisions or deluge wipes or missed wave rolls in DSR. If your idea of making newer trials more accessible means just increasing damage potential, then you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what actually stops people from getting trifectas or even hard mode clears.
    Maybe they can get in the group easier - assuming guilds don't also increase their requirements because "it's so easy to hit 150k now" (they will). They're still going to prog DSR twins because the new guy can't handle jumps and bashes.

    This. An Oakensoul build these days can produce enough dps to get older trifectas like TTT or DB with plenty of time to spare.
    But it's not like these trials are super accessible. If anything, their hms are still pretty challenging for the majority of players.
  • Alp
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    Lord_Hev wrote: »
    An even simpler fix that is permanent. Subclassing is treated as an actual system where the skillines being subclass use a subclass variant of it -seperate- and individual. Therefore, they can be properly balanced without nerfing classes in anticipation of broken combinations.

    It will be hard to balance it as is. Now imagine balancing a set of slightly different ones for each class. No way they would want to make subclassing weak. They want people to want to use it.
  • randconfig
    randconfig
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    Sootica wrote: »
    2. Disable subclassing in any scored instance (arenas and trials), vet instance (veteran dungeons), and Cyrodiil/IC. Just disable it entirely.

    Supportive of this.
    • Disable subclassing in PvP all together.
    • Disable subclassing in scored PvE instances, or keep both a class and a subclass record.

    Hard no to OP, and especially this. What's the point of subclassing if we can't use it in endgame content?
  • randconfig
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    I fully agree with this. It solves the balancing nightmare of subclassing without taking it away from role players. Otherwise, there’s just no way you’re going to make everyone happy.

    Well I'm not an role player, and this proposed change would not make me happy if I couldn't use subclassing in the content I mostly play. So it would effectively mean a year with no content for me, despite me having already paid for the season pass lol.
  • kevkj
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    randconfig wrote: »
    So it would effectively mean a year with no content for me, despite me having already paid for the season pass lol.

    You're paying for the zone+trial+dungeons, not subclassing?
  • StarOfElyon
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    ...

    The heal on hardened ward was too much. That nerf was needed. I enjoyed it yes but I could also see that it was busted.

    I think to make sub-classing less broken, we should only be allowed to sub one skill line from another class.
  • CaptainRele
    CaptainRele
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    I do want to emphasize again this is just an idea for a Temporary solution to subclassing. Because as is, it is too powerful at the high end while nerfing too much at the opposite end that does not wish to subclass. The potential it has to obliterate dps checks in already solved content should not go to live, and letting the various nerfs go through as is as some feeble attempt to reign in subclassing has already killed off a lot of people interest in playing post-patch. I dont exactly want it kept out of PvP or scored instances forever, but it should release when it's balanced properly. And right now it's not.
    If the point of moving away from the chapter system was to allow ZOS to release content as it was ready, and not scramble for a June release, then it should be fine to change the system and delay subclassing until the game is ready for it. Instead it got added to the Q2 patch with a stated release date and little room for error or admitting error.
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