Ok, but how much DPS do you ACTUALLY need?

MurkyWetWolf198 · April 23

I keep seeing a lot of complaints about every dps being forced to run META builds, sacrificing their character’s/build’s/identity’s to hit 171k in PvE content, but that’s just silly.
How much dps do you actually need to clear content?
Yeah, maybe content like VLC and VDSR perfectas require Meta beam bots, but for everything else? Who tf cares if I bring my jank frost build or my obnoxious pet builds if even those are hitting 130k+???
If your core team or guild isn’t willing to accept off meta builds that still hit 20k+ the current live server, that’s on them.
Not to say that Arc isn’t overtuned, but if you seriously think hitting 130-140k isn’t enough then you’re either a score pusher, a world record contender, or a toxic sweat

LunaFlora · April 23

20-50k seems good enough

Djennku · April 23

Anything 50k or higher andyou can easily clear every dps check in the game. Most fights otherwise can take as long as you like, so even 1-5k dps will work.

Daoin · April 23

the hints of a thousand non-meta sets to get things done gives it away that its not a meta build's type of dps u need

Xarc · April 23

if we consider the trifecta (once you know the mech), I think that 60-70k is enough. Some bosses have dps check (I'm thinking of the final boss of vateshran for example for a solo arena), impossible to pass without that

It's perfectly normal and healthy for some players to push the game's limits by parsing maximum DPS.
This pushes players to the top; you shouldn't feel frustrated about not reaching this kind of DPS, especially since it's against immobile dummies that don't fight back and where the group gives you the maximum possible buffs (and often there's no autoheal in the bar, which can be necessary in certain situations).

Daoin · April 23

from what we know from constant carry runs and the over time rise in dps is that it must me around half of 80k if not less, either way getting enough dps for a trifecta is very simple nowadays its just that not everyone want trifectas. as i told a friend you need the amount of dps that your toon is comfortable dishing out in the way they enjoy playing eso, i am thinking if 45k was top of the line once its also lower than that

AlterBlika · April 23

You're supposed to run meta builds for everything though, I fail to see why even complain about it

Renato90085 · April 23

I think the main problem is azureblight dead

MurkyWetWolf198 · April 23

I suppose I should clarify, how much dps is required for content to be COMFORTABLY cleared? Specifically stuff like trial and 4-man hard modes?

Daoin · April 23

the most comfortable feeling in the world with all the dps eso can freely give a char wont get you past the mechs needed so its a bit of a 2 sided sword quest, my answer without resorting to a calculator would be not much if the mechs are all muscle memory, minus anything with a direct dps check

RealLoveBVB · April 23

The more dps, the easier the content.

But always depends what content you are aiming for. 50k dps is probably enough for vet clears, but it baffles me every time when groups need 2h+ for a simple clear.

For trifectas it's a huge difference, whether you have "only" 120k dps or 130k. The faster stuff is dying, the less opportunities do they have to kill you. So it's always smart to aim for the highest possible dps.

MJallday · April 23

People were clearing GS and VCR3 when they were doing 30k dps . It isn’t about DPS. It’s about mechanics

There’s some DPS checks in game but not many

You can clear every peice of content in this game easily with 70k IMO

ZhuJiuyin · April 23

MurkyWetWolf198 wrote: »

I suppose I should clarify, how much dps is required for content to be COMFORTABLY cleared? Specifically stuff like trial and 4-man hard modes?

Do you mean the actual DPS gained in the trial, or the DPS gained on the dummy analysis? This is very important because in a real environment, DPS will fluctuate greatly due to factors such as mechanics and multiple targets.
I am a HM trial player, and my team's DPS requirement is to get 105K+ on the dummy analysis. Based on experience, most HM trial teams I've encountered require 100-120K+ dummy analysis.

RealLoveBVB · April 23

MJallday wrote: »

People were clearing GS and VCR3 when they were doing 30k dps . It isn’t about DPS. It’s about mechanics

There’s some DPS checks in game but not many

You can clear every peice of content in this game easily with 70k IMO

I doubt you will manage the speed run with 30k dps. GS portal actually requires to have 40k+, even with perfectly playing the mechs.

When Elsweyr released, the "cap" was at around 90k dps. Not sure from where you take your numbers.

tomofhyrule · April 23

These types of questions always to conveniently avoid the timber mammoth in the room.

How much DPS do you need to clear content? Whatever number your group leader needs you to have.

Sure, you don't need 170k to clear the content. Nobody has that on live right now, and the content has been cleared. However, trying to come out and say "I'm allowed to have 20k DPS as long as I know mechanics" always is a poor-faith argument, mainly because 1) those people tend to not actually know mechanics, and 2) you can't do trials solo, so you need to consider the rest of the group as well.

An example: I tank. I started in those types of learning groups that can't reliably clear vCR+0. I always thought it was that I was bad at the game. I just checked my achieves, and it was 41.5 months (Oct 2020 to Mar 2024) between my first vCR+0 and my first vCR+1 (and +2, and +3, since I did those all on the same day). Five months later (Sep 1 2024), I got Gryphon Heart. What changed? I was in a good group. Sure, the first group could clear, but the second had much closer-to-meta DPS, which meant that things were so much easier on the supports because people were more organized, and the fights weren't dragging on for ages (longer fights means more of a chance to make a single mistake, and vDLCTrials tend to be in the "tank makes a single mistake means a wipe" camp). It's stressful to be 'on' for two hours straight.

So yes, you can totally clear most content without much DPS. There are honestly pretty few hard DPS checks in the game, and those are really only punishing in HMs of various things. But that being said, bringing your RP-themed "sword-and-board DPS with three healing skill lines" character to vet content could be fun if everyone was on board, but you are by nature making it more difficult for others. And they may not always be on board for that.

A lot of people making the "you don't need meta!" argument (including the devs!) are falling into the fallacy that you're playing in a vacuum. Yes, in 90%+ of the content, your DPS doesn't really matter and you can clear it. But you are playing in a team, and the other people in the groups do want people to by playing as a team, and that does mean not pulling less than 50% of other peoples' numbers. We've all done group projects in school and hated it. Why? Because we felt like one person was coasting while we did all the work. The same holds true if you have one person doing 50k DPS in a group of people doing 130k...

And again, I'm talking about "clears," which is not implying other achieves like speedruns or anything. Yes, you need to have certain numbers for speedruns.

So that's my issue with Subclassing making the "top people" do like 170k - if all of the meta people are using builds that do 150-170k, then you even coming in with your 100k pure-class that works now is now doing significantly less than others. Of course everyone doesn't need that high DPS to just clear; that's just stupid. But if you're that far behind everyone else in your group, they're gonna replace you with someone who does want to be a team player and get the DPS that the rest of the team has.

Daoin · April 23

its not whatever much your leader wants at all, are we aliens or something lol ? not everyone is a score pusher ! for example i dont join trifecta groups the reason being i simply dont like the enviroment those groups tend to create (if i new 11 more people in real life that enjoyed eso then maybe) so if one of your team actually has less that 20k dps thats fine or people would have made no money from selling carry groups. i made a friend once in school that could not add up 2 + 2 well i went on to get a degree in advanced mathematics but we rule the land as friends and i would never hold it against him as we make a great team in whatever we do, together because we actually know each other from a real life perspective. so dont have to try impress me with his maths and i dont have to pretent i attract the ladies like he does. then ii think about total stangers in trifecta prog groups >.> maxing out on trial dummy dps and getting nowhere, except into bad moods, im serious joining with 100k - 130k parses full groups because thats what the leader wanted to see posted to join and cannot get a cr+2 clear not to mention trifectas. any proof of anything has always been in your face sort of thing with eso stuff like this but yet everyone still gets roped along the glitches and tweaks and nerfs and over dps ect ect route to things when things could have been much simpler for everyone now we have multi classing instead and low and behold more tweaking up and nerfing

colossalvoids · April 23

Everything depends on time expectations. If something taking 10 mins before now taking for example 5 that's the new standard to chase. A lot of content can be done with close to zero DPS but the thing is that mechanics would be executed way more making more room for error and to be honest most people who have issues with DPS are having issues with mechanics also to begin with. It's a tricky thing and no amount of power creep would equalise the top with the bottom.

Daoin · April 23

laughs though the day i increase my dps becasue someone else i hardly know wants me to, or the day i start wearing gear im not comfortable in would be kin to a cold day in hell, the only message high expectation dps groups send to me is the dont go there written on thier backs

ADarklore · April 23

It always amazes me when people complain about lack of content, or content is too easy, and then they constantly push to get through new content faster... just so they can then complain that content is too easy and there is nothing left to do. Yet, they expect devs to cater to them... and wonder why they don't.

RealLoveBVB · April 23

ADarklore wrote: »

It always amazes me when people complain about lack of content, or content is too easy, and then they constantly push to get through new content faster... just so they can then complain that content is too easy and there is nothing left to do. Yet, they expect devs to cater to them... and wonder why they don't.

Say thanks to account wide achievements.
It took any kind of replayability.

Dino-Jr · April 23

There isn't one answer to this since there is a diversity of content and communities that play ESO all of which is fun for its own reasons.

This is how I understand things:

Trifectas: >100k - Max
General Vet PVE Group Content: 60k-100k
Solo Dungeons/Arenas/World Bosses Etc.: 30k-70k

Trying to max things out for Trifectas or specific experiments or groups is normal and fun. Trying to create optimized but not maxed out builds that work solo and still for group Vet PVE content also fun. You won't find a one size fits all answer to your question.

From a slightly different perspective I personally find once I hit like 70k the combat generally 'feels' more entertaining for basically all available content since stuff drops quicker and hits start feeling like they really hit. 40-60k is super achievable and an improvement but that 70k or above range just seems to be where pve gameplay has been at its most fun for me.

AdmiralDigby · April 23

Groups are typically maximalists. So whatever the max number is minus 5% or so if the requirement they have.

As far as the minimum actually needed. Older trifectas 70-90k dps. Newer trofectas 90-105k dps.

Our group cleared PB with static rotations hitting 90-100k dps. 0 arcs used. Barriers spammed. 27 min clear.

Our group cleared DM with static rotations hitting 90 to 105k dps. Barriers spammed. 27 min clear. 1 arc used for pixies on final boss.

We are now Pacing for 26 min SS same setups. Reality is high APM, Good Skill Placement, Good Time on Target and High Raid Awareness is what makes a player good. The sets and classes are minimal impact.

Arcs are quite easy to do Good damage on. They've enabled alot of less skilled teams to get clears they wouldn't have been able to get otherwise.

Soarora · April 23

Every time this is brought up people lowball it hard. You cannot do 20k dps on the trial dunmy and have enough DPS. For RG HM you need over 70k dps in content damage at the bare minimum. Pre-U35, I believe 80k was the major hurdle but that was also before the dummy got buffed. So, 90-110k really is the goal to shoot for. New content doesn’t care that old content only needed 70k dps.

But on the topic of 175k dps… do you need it? No. Does the culture say you need to do the highest possible damage in order to make the content as easy as possible or else you’re not being a team player? Yes. It’s much easier to find people who push meta than it is to find people who don’t want to full burn but also aren’t too casual.

If you want to play the game with all mechanics then at this point it’d be nigh impossible to find enough people and you’d have to specialty make your builds for each content because each content needs different levels of DPS. This is why we need a new level of difficulty that’s up to date across the board so that even the majority is forced to see mechanics.

Ezhh · April 23

MurkyWetWolf198 wrote: »

I keep seeing a lot of complaints about every dps being forced to run META builds, sacrificing their character’s/build’s/identity’s to hit 171k in PvE content, but that’s just silly.
How much dps do you actually need to clear content?
Yeah, maybe content like VLC and VDSR perfectas require Meta beam bots, but for everything else? Who tf cares if I bring my jank frost build or my obnoxious pet builds if even those are hitting 130k+???
If your core team or guild isn’t willing to accept off meta builds that still hit 20k+ the current live server, that’s on them.
Not to say that Arc isn’t overtuned, but if you seriously think hitting 130-140k isn’t enough then you’re either a score pusher, a world record contender, or a toxic sweat

I agree that the current numbers on PTS are not healthy for the game, but asking how much dps someone needs is a tricky question.

Let's assume we're all measuring on a trial dummy, since that's the only consistent measure we have of how someone will perform when under combat buffs.

This simplifies everything because you won't always get these buffs. In a really good trial group you might get better buffs. In a mid level group their uptime will likely be a bit lacking. In a low level group or pug you might not get any buffs. Then not all content is equal; plenty of fights have damage stops or mechanics that disrupt what would otherwise be the best dps rotation a person is capable of. This means someone's dummy dps is often going to be far ahead of what they can do in a trial.

Next, assuming no damage checks or timed mechanics, ultimately it depends how good your supports are and how patient they are. There's an interesting relationship here; the quicker things die the easier a time of it the supports have. But groups that have "weaker" DDs usually also have "weaker" supports who are more likely to get in trouble sooner than more experienced supports are. With this in mind I'd say the amount of dps you need so far is whatever is enough that your supports don't find themselves overrun or unable to sustain. (Of course this assumes content of a difficulty level where you actually need supports to not wipe.)

Beyond this it depends what you're group is trying to achieve. If you are a casual player who is not interested in HMs, then your dps and build can generally be whatever you feel like with low impact on anyone. Though if you are only pulling up to 30k max you might find yourself not wanted in things like newer vet dlc dungeons or vet farm runs of the newest trial where people are specifically looking to finish quick to fill a sticker book. That doesn't mean you can't clear the content - just that people might not want to be that patient.

Then into HM trials like AS and CR there start to be real dps checks. In CR you need the damage to get through portals in time. In AS you need the damage to kill the minis before they enrage. I don't know what this dps equates to on a dummy, but at this point I would expect players to be interested in raising their own dps and to be looking into builds that work to an acceptable level in this content. Not full on min-maxing, but at least some basic willingness to try and improve and be better players. Otherwise is this person a team player? If they are not, why should a group accept them?

Then let's skip to trifectas like GS and DB. First there's an actual time limit to contend with, and secondly the difficulty increases sharply if you don't, as a group, deliver enough dps. You will have more mechanics to play. More adds to deal with. More damage to outheal. More chances for someone to slip up and die. Given the relative ease of parsing 100k on a dummy, at this point I'd probably have serious doubts about any DD who can't do that or who isn't actively trying to get there. For fights like Vrol and Lokke we also need to start thinking about more than single target damage. If you don't have cleave damage to deal with the adds you are in for huge pain.

And many people who say things like "oh but I'm good at mechanics so even though I just parse 50k take me because I won't die" are actually not good at mechanics at all. Combat in this game IS a mechanic. Let that sink in. I've risked it with DDs making such claims before and find them turning up with half a bar of heals and shields and selfish sets to have more hp. But they refuse to change their build because "I'll die then". Meanwhile the healer is growling in the background because they feel untrusted and the other DDs are fed up that this person doesn't pull their weight.

Another big jump and let's say we now want to do Unstoppable. I'm pretty sure taking a full group of DDs who parse under 100k on a dummy will lead to a group that is incapable of Unstoppable. Groups with meta DDs who parse fairly high on dummys can still be finishing this with less than 2 mins on the clock. Keep in mind how common it is for someone to disconnect and need to rejoin as well. I had that in one Unstoppable run and we had to wait a minute. We got the title with less than a minute to spare. There is barely any room for error. So yes, for something like this I want to see you pushing to get whatever the current expected dps is for content of this level. Otherwise you are the the lazy person who doesn't seem to care about the other 11 people who are pushing themselves to their limit trying to get an achievement very few people in the game ever manage to do.

---

All that said - I genuinely believe there are cases where it's fine to take someone who might be seen as underperforming if you only look at dps. For me the biggest measure often comes down to: are they making an effort? If they are, then they will usually improve, and for most levels of content that's good enough.

I also feel the constant powercreep the game has been experiencing isn't healthy. I'm a player who likes to be challenged with hard content, but earlier content has been trivialised to the point that it's not much fun anymore for a player like me. Look a MoL. It's a beautifully designed trial but no one ever gets to see the end boss mechanics in full unless specifically stopping damage to wait for it. How far do we go before other trial mechanics are never seen? AS mini skips and 0 portal CR trifectas have both been possible for a long time by the best players. Maybe that becomes the norm for everyone at some point. The end result is we lose content from the game.

sarahthes · April 23

MurkyWetWolf198 wrote: »

I suppose I should clarify, how much dps is required for content to be COMFORTABLY cleared? Specifically stuff like trial and 4-man hard modes?

When you can already clear the content comfortably, you push the limits with uncomfortable strats and the harder the strat, the more damage to execute it.

It's what people do after they have cleared everything.

Or they quit.

sarahthes · April 23

MJallday wrote: »

People were clearing GS and VCR3 when they were doing 30k dps . It isn’t about DPS. It’s about mechanics

There’s some DPS checks in game but not many

You can clear every peice of content in this game easily with 70k IMO

Given that the Eternal Servant required between 40-50K per person when GS was released that's demonstrably false. It has been nerfed by 10% since then.

madmufffin · April 23

Most people are just upset to be upset. Yeah some groups will have hard reqs to be the absolute meta build for dps, but we're already going to be comfortably ahead of where we are now with the majority of competently put together builds. Find people who are cool with having fun so long as you're not an anchor and just roll with it. Content has largely been free DPS wise since the release of arc and this just makes it worse. Just don't be pulling 8% dps and don't stand in stupid and you'll be allowed to have fun.

VoidCommander · April 23

100k+ on the trial dummy without cheater sets like kilt (or anything that requires specific scenarios) is my personal threshold. You can make plenty of role-play builds reach that mark, and now it will be even easier with subclassing. I wanted an Ice Warden. I worked with the tools needed to pass 100k. Now with subclassing I’ll have access to even more frost damage themed abilities that are more powerful than my current options.

Soarora · April 23

VoidCommander wrote: »

100k+ on the trial dummy without cheater sets like kilt (or anything that requires specific scenarios) is my personal threshold. You can make plenty of role-play builds reach that mark, and now it will be even easier with subclassing. I wanted an Ice Warden. I worked with the tools needed to pass 100k. Now with subclassing I’ll have access to even more frost damage themed abilities that are more powerful than my current options.

I don’t know if you’ll see this, but what lines are you thinking of? I have a frost warden too and not opposed to swapping the healing line for more ice skills, but not sure where you’re finding more ice skills aside from boneyard.

sarahthes · April 23

VoidCommander wrote: »

100k+ on the trial dummy without cheater sets like kilt (or anything that requires specific scenarios) is my personal threshold. You can make plenty of role-play builds reach that mark, and now it will be even easier with subclassing. I wanted an Ice Warden. I worked with the tools needed to pass 100k. Now with subclassing I’ll have access to even more frost damage themed abilities that are more powerful than my current options.

Kilt is nerfed and useless in content, but before it was nerfed it was actually used in some content so how is it cheating? Right now kilt parses and velothi parses are identical. Are both cheating?

Wereswan · April 23

MurkyWetWolf198 wrote: »

I suppose I should clarify, how much dps is required for content to be COMFORTABLY cleared? Specifically stuff like trial and 4-man hard modes?

For what it's worth, my main character averages around 30K and I'm generally around 10% of the damage in normal trials PUG groups. I almost exclusively use Templar class skills, save for the Soul Magic ult whose name eludes me, so not exactly a "meta" setup.