RealLoveBVB wrote: »

And how is this a bug?

The descriptions are pretty clear on that matter.

Also it would be pretty lame to get an achievement where you just wipe and try again to unlock it. Where's the challenge then?

Are these incomplete descriptions? Where do they say “without a group wipe” or “without a death” or “on your first attempt”?

Unless an achievement specifies it must be no-death, it is attemptable again in the same instance if you wipe as a general rule. I believe that’s the case with the vast majority of dungeon and trial achievements - it is for the ones for completing Hard Mode. I’m not sure I’d call HM achievements “lame” just because they don’t require you to reprog the entire dungeon or trial after a wipe to get achievements just for finishing.

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

virtus753 wrote: »

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

And how is this a bug?

The descriptions are pretty clear on that matter.

Also it would be pretty lame to get an achievement where you just wipe and try again to unlock it. Where's the challenge then?

Are these incomplete descriptions? Where do they say “without a group wipe” or “without a death” or “on your first attempt”

Let's take the Fang Lair achievement as example:

Soarora wrote: »

[*] Minimal Animosity - Defeat Orryn the Black and Thurvokun while only destroying a maximum of one Animus Crystal before Orryn merges with Thurvokun in Veteran Fang Lair.

"While only destroying a maximum of one Animus Crystal..."

If you start the combat, you destroy that one Crystal, but you wipe and have to start again, then the one destroyed Crystal already counted.

If you start your 2nd attempt and you destroy a Crystal, then you have 2 crystals destroyed already.

It's pretty much comparable with a no death. If you die and on your 2nd attempt you manage it without a death, you are still not awarded the no death, as you "failed" it in the first attempt already.

The achievement for the crystals is specific to the encounter. No-death dungeon achievements cover a whole run. In each case, the relevant target should be reset. That would mean the entire run for no-deaths but only the encounter for this achievement.

The fact that you have destroyed the one crystal in the first attempt has no bearing on your second attempt. If it had any impact whatsoever on subsequent attempts, I could see there being reason to count it against you that you'd destroyed one in prior attempts. Since there is no impact, there is no rationale for holding that against your group for the rest of the run, especially when that effectively turns it into a no-death or tri-level reset-the-whole-run-type thing.

For no-deaths/tris, you cannot have a group member death once you have engaged the first encounter, as there's no way to reset "all encounters" (as specified in the more recent no-death achievements) without resetting the dungeon. (I will say that the no-death achievements for older dungeons are not sufficiently clear, as they specify only certain bosses must be killed without a death, whereas the game actually tracks the whole run. For more recent dungeons, ZOS has been much better about clarifying that they expect us to complete "all encounters including bosses," not just the bosses themselves.)

This is because if even one trash mob dies and then you have a group member death, you have irrevocably denied yourself the opportunity to "defeat all encounters" without a death until you reset the dungeon, as that's the only way to respawn the mob(s) that died before your death(s) and thus become eligible to "defeat all encounters" again. If you continue without resetting, you will only have defeated "all encounters except what you already defeated before the death."

Unlike a whole run, you can reset this individual FL encounter without previous attempts in the same run changing that encounter in any way. The encounter is entirely reset with no impact from any crystals destroyed previously. The achievement should therefore be self-contained within each attempt at the individual encounter.

ETA:

Are these achievements also not able to be completed after resetting the final fight of FL? They should likewise be impossible until the whole run is reset, if Minimal Animosity is working as intended. (Then ZOS would have to recode many other encounter-specific achievements to be consistent with these, whereas the numbers suggest the issue with Minimal Animosity is unintended.)

Starved Scarabs - https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Starved_Scarabs
Cold Pursuit - https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Cold_Pursuit

All three of these are also only 10 achievement points each, which suggests they are not meant to be anywhere as demanding as a no-death or tri. Requiring a reset of the whole dungeon on a singular fail like a no-death or tri does isn't consistent with the point values they've been given, imo.

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

And how is this a bug?

The descriptions are pretty clear on that matter.

Also it would be pretty lame to get an achievement where you just wipe and try again to unlock it. Where's the challenge then?

I have to agree. The OP's view would make sense if "death" counted as a clean state, but even NPC dialogue reflects that it is not. Some of the best dialogue lines are bosses trash talking about the players dying and trying again.

Look, most achievements aside from no death you can reset the fight on. It does not matter at all if we think it's bugged or not. Heck, I'll admit, since it's all the old dungeons it may have been intended to be this way. There is no need for discussion about that, it's up to ZOS to decide if it fits their current design philosophy. I posted it here mostly to get feedback on if other achievements are like this to compile a list so people stop wasting their time when trying to get these achievements and potentially alert ZOS as to how these achievements are currently functioning, not to debate on if it's worth reporting or not. If you don't think it's worth the report, then don't bump my thread because it's not like I'm going to take back the post.

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

virtus753 wrote: »

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

virtus753 wrote: »

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

And how is this a bug?

The descriptions are pretty clear on that matter.

Also it would be pretty lame to get an achievement where you just wipe and try again to unlock it. Where's the challenge then?

Are these incomplete descriptions? Where do they say “without a group wipe” or “without a death” or “on your first attempt”

Let's take the Fang Lair achievement as example:

Soarora wrote: »

[*] Minimal Animosity - Defeat Orryn the Black and Thurvokun while only destroying a maximum of one Animus Crystal before Orryn merges with Thurvokun in Veteran Fang Lair.

"While only destroying a maximum of one Animus Crystal..."

If you start the combat, you destroy that one Crystal, but you wipe and have to start again, then the one destroyed Crystal already counted.

If you start your 2nd attempt and you destroy a Crystal, then you have 2 crystals destroyed already.

It's pretty much comparable with a no death. If you die and on your 2nd attempt you manage it without a death, you are still not awarded the no death, as you "failed" it in the first attempt already.

ETA:

Are these achievements also not able to be completed after resetting the final fight of FL? They should likewise be impossible until the whole run is reset, if Minimal Animosity is working as intended. (Then ZOS would have to recode many other encounter-specific achievements to be consistent with these, whereas the numbers suggest the issue with Minimal Animosity is unintended.)

Starved Scarabs - https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Starved_Scarabs
Cold Pursuit - https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Cold_Pursuit

All three of these are also only 10 achievement points each, which suggests they are not meant to be anywhere as demanding as a no-death or tri. Requiring a reset of the whole dungeon on a singular fail like a no-death or tri does isn't consistent with the point values they've been given, imo.

I have no memory of progging those achievements and I already have them so I can't test (except maybe on eu character copy pts), but it might be worth a shot checking those.

They have to be done on the first try, too.

I'll add them to the list then, thank you.