Is Rush of Agony too powerful?

MurkyWetWolf198 · April 21

For PvP purposes.

silentxthreat · April 21

Yes, please nerf

Please if pvp only gets one thing this patch this set needs to be removed from the game
@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler

RebornV3x · April 21

Yes, please nerf

It doesn't need a nerf the set just needs too be fixed the set needs to grant cc immunity and needs a range decrease/fix. The tooltip says 12m but I'm almost positive the pull its a bit farther than that.

AngryPenguin · April 21

Yes, please nerf

I fear vengeance is the planned solution for RoA and other balance issues. There has been too many posts and too much silence from ZOS for anyone to believe otherwise.

Thumbless_Bot · April 22

Yes, please nerf

RebornV3x wrote: »

It doesn't need a nerf the set just needs too be fixed the set needs to grant cc immunity and needs a range decrease/fix. The tooltip says 12m but I'm almost positive the pull its a bit farther than that.

The set is too strong even when working as intended and even if they made it adhere to, you know, the rules of the game...

You can find the reasons here:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8275670#Comment_8275670

xylena_lazarow · April 22

Yes, please nerf

It still plagues BGs as well, causing play patterns where the RoA user will keep blindly charging into the opposing team (and dying) until they get a lucky chain reaction off some poor exploding noob. All gambling, no skill.

RebornV3x · April 22

Yes, please nerf

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

RebornV3x wrote: »

It doesn't need a nerf the set just needs too be fixed the set needs to grant cc immunity and needs a range decrease/fix. The tooltip says 12m but I'm almost positive the pull its a bit farther than that.

The set is too strong even when working as intended and even if they made it adhere to, you know, the rules of the game...

You can find the reasons here:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8275670#Comment_8275670

Ive read this before and the reasoning is dumb this set shouldn't be allowed to break the rules I'm fine with this set if they just fixed it and maybe decreased the range a meter or 2. Anyways if this was any other MMO I would accuse the devs of purposefully making and keeping the set broken so they can abuse the set. But I know ESO devs don't play pvp because I refuse to believe anyone with any power to change things in ESO can seriously look at PVP in its current state and be like "yeah this is fine"

silky_soft · April 22

Yes, please nerf

silentxthreat wrote: »

Please if pvp only gets one thing this patch this set needs to be removed from the game
@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler

Put a monster only flag on it if not going to make it follow normal rules.

Joy_Division · April 22

Yes, please nerf

It's insane that ZOS does not feel getting pulled is worthy of being crowd controlled.

Remember old school Maelstrom with the Stranglers in Round 3? PvE players complained because pulls are so dangerous and got ZOS to change that real fast.

The indifference about this set and the strength of organized PvP groups is utterly depressing

Thumbless_Bot · April 22

Yes, please nerf

RebornV3x wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

RebornV3x wrote: »

It doesn't need a nerf the set just needs too be fixed the set needs to grant cc immunity and needs a range decrease/fix. The tooltip says 12m but I'm almost positive the pull its a bit farther than that.

The set is too strong even when working as intended and even if they made it adhere to, you know, the rules of the game...

You can find the reasons here:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8275670#Comment_8275670

Ive read this before and the reasoning is dumb this set shouldn't be allowed to break the rules I'm fine with this set if they just fixed it and maybe decreased the range a meter or 2. Anyways if this was any other MMO I would accuse the devs of purposefully making and keeping the set broken so they can abuse the set. But I know ESO devs don't play pvp because I refuse to believe anyone with any power to change things in ESO can seriously look at PVP in its current state and be like "yeah this is fine"

The set can hit everyone in range. For example. In an 8v8 bg It can hit 8 players. It's the equivalent of dk chains which costs 3700 magicka and requires targeting. Thats about 26k magicka equivalent in one gcd.

The range is 453 sq meter
It can hit every 8 seconds
It hits hard
It costs at least one gcd to every enemy hit
It doesn't require targeting

It's stronger than an ultimate, even if it applies cc immunity.

This is all assuming it's even working as intended.

What's dumb about this reasoning?

StarOfElyon · April 22

Yes, please nerf

MurkyWetWolf198 wrote: »

For PvP purposes.

CC immunity exists for a reason! We've been asking forever for this set to be changed forever and we've been ignored.

silentxthreat · April 22

Yes, please nerf

RoA is probably the worse set in the game and makes it not fun to play.

Kartalin · April 22

Yes, please nerf

Specifically I would suggest a more visible telegraph like dark conv, and a much smaller damage proc. This at the very least would alleviate some of the pain. Removing it altogether is also an option

The_Meathead · April 22

Yes, please nerf

RoA makes even mediocre Ballgroups far too effective.

Things like this need to be trimmed frequently, not left to destroy the game. It's been so blatant that it really questions if anyone's paying attention or even cares.

Urzigurumash · April 22

Yes, please nerf

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

It still plagues BGs as well, causing play patterns where the RoA user will keep blindly charging into the opposing team (and dying) until they get a lucky chain reaction off some poor exploding noob. All gambling, no skill.

Thankfully this set doesn't appear in 4v4s on Xbox NA. Why do you suppose that is?

Joy_Division · April 22

Yes, please nerf

Urzigurumash wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

It still plagues BGs as well, causing play patterns where the RoA user will keep blindly charging into the opposing team (and dying) until they get a lucky chain reaction off some poor exploding noob. All gambling, no skill.

Thankfully this set doesn't appear in 4v4s on Xbox NA. Why do you suppose that is?

RoA is best used in environments with more players. It's not a single person using Rush of Agony that kills me. It is their 11 buddies spamming PBAoEs and my allies with 16K health who are walking vicious death procs that kill me. Basically Cyrodiil.

Urzigurumash · April 22

Yes, please nerf

Joy_Division wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

It still plagues BGs as well, causing play patterns where the RoA user will keep blindly charging into the opposing team (and dying) until they get a lucky chain reaction off some poor exploding noob. All gambling, no skill.

Thankfully this set doesn't appear in 4v4s on Xbox NA. Why do you suppose that is?

RoA is best used in environments with more players. It's not a single person using Rush of Agony that kills me. It is their 11 buddies spamming PBAoEs and my allies with 16K health who are walking vicious death procs that kill me. Basically Cyrodiil.

Yeah exactly. Not enough fuel for VD so ROA is useless.

But VD is totally innocent?

Urzigurumash · April 22

Yes, please nerf

I'm a solo pug tanklet. I'll never stop defending the rights of my people.

ForumBully · April 22

Yes, please nerf

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

It still plagues BGs as well, causing play patterns where the RoA user will keep blindly charging into the opposing team (and dying) until they get a lucky chain reaction off some poor exploding noob. All gambling, no skill.

Thankfully this set doesn't appear in 4v4s on Xbox NA. Why do you suppose that is?

RoA is best used in environments with more players. It's not a single person using Rush of Agony that kills me. It is their 11 buddies spamming PBAoEs and my allies with 16K health who are walking vicious death procs that kill me. Basically Cyrodiil.

Yeah exactly. Not enough fuel for VD so ROA is useless.

But VD is totally innocent?

I don't mind VD since it punishes bad decisions like stacking together. RoA makes the decision to stack together for players.

Teeba_Shei · April 22

No, keep as is

ForumBully wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

It still plagues BGs as well, causing play patterns where the RoA user will keep blindly charging into the opposing team (and dying) until they get a lucky chain reaction off some poor exploding noob. All gambling, no skill.

Thankfully this set doesn't appear in 4v4s on Xbox NA. Why do you suppose that is?

RoA is best used in environments with more players. It's not a single person using Rush of Agony that kills me. It is their 11 buddies spamming PBAoEs and my allies with 16K health who are walking vicious death procs that kill me. Basically Cyrodiil.

Yeah exactly. Not enough fuel for VD so ROA is useless.

But VD is totally innocent?

I don't mind VD since it punishes bad decisions like stacking together. RoA makes the decision to stack together for players.

That decision is made when the player decides to block or not.

ForumBully · April 22

Yes, please nerf

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

It still plagues BGs as well, causing play patterns where the RoA user will keep blindly charging into the opposing team (and dying) until they get a lucky chain reaction off some poor exploding noob. All gambling, no skill.

Thankfully this set doesn't appear in 4v4s on Xbox NA. Why do you suppose that is?

RoA is best used in environments with more players. It's not a single person using Rush of Agony that kills me. It is their 11 buddies spamming PBAoEs and my allies with 16K health who are walking vicious death procs that kill me. Basically Cyrodiil.

Yeah exactly. Not enough fuel for VD so ROA is useless.

But VD is totally innocent?

I don't mind VD since it punishes bad decisions like stacking together. RoA makes the decision to stack together for players.

That decision is made when the player decides to block or not.

Because the telegraph is so obvious? I guess running in block forever in PvP is the counterplay. This is idiotic

Orbital78 · April 22

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

It still plagues BGs as well, causing play patterns where the RoA user will keep blindly charging into the opposing team (and dying) until they get a lucky chain reaction off some poor exploding noob. All gambling, no skill.

Thankfully this set doesn't appear in 4v4s on Xbox NA. Why do you suppose that is?

RoA is best used in environments with more players. It's not a single person using Rush of Agony that kills me. It is their 11 buddies spamming PBAoEs and my allies with 16K health who are walking vicious death procs that kill me. Basically Cyrodiil.

Yeah exactly. Not enough fuel for VD so ROA is useless.

But VD is totally innocent?

I don't mind VD since it punishes bad decisions like stacking together. RoA makes the decision to stack together for players.

That decision is made when the player decides to block or not.

You cannot control server performance though, I find it becomes the biggest issue in really large fights when blocking and breaking free stop working.

RealLoveBVB · April 22

No, keep as is

Orbital78 wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

It still plagues BGs as well, causing play patterns where the RoA user will keep blindly charging into the opposing team (and dying) until they get a lucky chain reaction off some poor exploding noob. All gambling, no skill.

Thankfully this set doesn't appear in 4v4s on Xbox NA. Why do you suppose that is?

RoA is best used in environments with more players. It's not a single person using Rush of Agony that kills me. It is their 11 buddies spamming PBAoEs and my allies with 16K health who are walking vicious death procs that kill me. Basically Cyrodiil.

Yeah exactly. Not enough fuel for VD so ROA is useless.

But VD is totally innocent?

I don't mind VD since it punishes bad decisions like stacking together. RoA makes the decision to stack together for players.

That decision is made when the player decides to block or not.

You cannot control server performance though, I find it becomes the biggest issue in really large fights when blocking and breaking free stop working.

I read a lot, that players who hate RoA, often argue with "server delay, lags" etc...

So instead of complaining about the server, they want a set removed instead O.o

I want snipe removed then. Because when I die in 1 second and see 2 snipes, a light attack and silver bolt in death recap, it must be totally the servers fault. #NerfSnipers

ForumBully · April 22

Yes, please nerf

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

Orbital78 wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

It still plagues BGs as well, causing play patterns where the RoA user will keep blindly charging into the opposing team (and dying) until they get a lucky chain reaction off some poor exploding noob. All gambling, no skill.

Thankfully this set doesn't appear in 4v4s on Xbox NA. Why do you suppose that is?

RoA is best used in environments with more players. It's not a single person using Rush of Agony that kills me. It is their 11 buddies spamming PBAoEs and my allies with 16K health who are walking vicious death procs that kill me. Basically Cyrodiil.

Yeah exactly. Not enough fuel for VD so ROA is useless.

But VD is totally innocent?

I don't mind VD since it punishes bad decisions like stacking together. RoA makes the decision to stack together for players.

That decision is made when the player decides to block or not.

You cannot control server performance though, I find it becomes the biggest issue in really large fights when blocking and breaking free stop working.

I read a lot, that players who hate RoA, often argue with "server delay, lags" etc...

So instead of complaining about the server, they want a set removed instead O.o

I want snipe removed then. Because when I die in 1 second and see 2 snipes, a light attack and silver bolt in death recap, it must be totally the servers fault. #NerfSnipers

I read a lot of players trying to advocate for broken sets and bad mechanics because they enjoy using them. There's no good arguments for a set that violates CC rules or a set that puts players in compromised defensive positions against their will.
There are bad arguments though...like just that you enjoy easy mode

Urzigurumash · April 22

Yes, please nerf

@RealLoveBVB A clear, simple, and solveable problem versus a nebulous and potentially unsolveable problem? Many sets have been changed, and yes Snipe WAS nerfed, a few times and in a few ways so

But I commend thee for coming here to defend your massively unpopular position

RealLoveBVB · April 22

No, keep as is

ForumBully wrote: »

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

Orbital78 wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

It still plagues BGs as well, causing play patterns where the RoA user will keep blindly charging into the opposing team (and dying) until they get a lucky chain reaction off some poor exploding noob. All gambling, no skill.

Thankfully this set doesn't appear in 4v4s on Xbox NA. Why do you suppose that is?

RoA is best used in environments with more players. It's not a single person using Rush of Agony that kills me. It is their 11 buddies spamming PBAoEs and my allies with 16K health who are walking vicious death procs that kill me. Basically Cyrodiil.

Yeah exactly. Not enough fuel for VD so ROA is useless.

But VD is totally innocent?

I don't mind VD since it punishes bad decisions like stacking together. RoA makes the decision to stack together for players.

That decision is made when the player decides to block or not.

You cannot control server performance though, I find it becomes the biggest issue in really large fights when blocking and breaking free stop working.

I read a lot, that players who hate RoA, often argue with "server delay, lags" etc...

So instead of complaining about the server, they want a set removed instead O.o

I want snipe removed then. Because when I die in 1 second and see 2 snipes, a light attack and silver bolt in death recap, it must be totally the servers fault. #NerfSnipers

I read a lot of players trying to advocate for broken sets and bad mechanics because they enjoy using them. There's no good arguments for a set that violates CC rules or a set that puts players in compromised defensive positions against their will.
There are bad arguments though...like just that you enjoy easy mode

It depends in which position you are. If you are zerged by 10 players, then you often can't do much.
With RoA you can at least balance the situation a bit and can fight back, eventho your chance to win is still low. Sets like this give you the opportunity to fight back and not just getting zerged to death (It's the zergs in this case who chose the easy mode).

ForumBully · April 22

Yes, please nerf

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

Orbital78 wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

It still plagues BGs as well, causing play patterns where the RoA user will keep blindly charging into the opposing team (and dying) until they get a lucky chain reaction off some poor exploding noob. All gambling, no skill.

Thankfully this set doesn't appear in 4v4s on Xbox NA. Why do you suppose that is?

RoA is best used in environments with more players. It's not a single person using Rush of Agony that kills me. It is their 11 buddies spamming PBAoEs and my allies with 16K health who are walking vicious death procs that kill me. Basically Cyrodiil.

Yeah exactly. Not enough fuel for VD so ROA is useless.

But VD is totally innocent?

I don't mind VD since it punishes bad decisions like stacking together. RoA makes the decision to stack together for players.

That decision is made when the player decides to block or not.

You cannot control server performance though, I find it becomes the biggest issue in really large fights when blocking and breaking free stop working.

I read a lot, that players who hate RoA, often argue with "server delay, lags" etc...

So instead of complaining about the server, they want a set removed instead O.o

I want snipe removed then. Because when I die in 1 second and see 2 snipes, a light attack and silver bolt in death recap, it must be totally the servers fault. #NerfSnipers

I read a lot of players trying to advocate for broken sets and bad mechanics because they enjoy using them. There's no good arguments for a set that violates CC rules or a set that puts players in compromised defensive positions against their will.
There are bad arguments though...like just that you enjoy easy mode

It depends in which position you are. If you are zerged by 10 players, then you often can't do much.
With RoA you can at least balance the situation a bit and can fight back, eventho your chance to win is still low. Sets like this give you the opportunity to fight back and not just getting zerged to death (It's the zergs in this case who chose the easy mode).

Sure..I saw RoA used all the time to defend against the zerg. That's totally it's use case.

RealLoveBVB · April 22

No, keep as is

ForumBully wrote: »

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

Orbital78 wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

It still plagues BGs as well, causing play patterns where the RoA user will keep blindly charging into the opposing team (and dying) until they get a lucky chain reaction off some poor exploding noob. All gambling, no skill.

Thankfully this set doesn't appear in 4v4s on Xbox NA. Why do you suppose that is?

RoA is best used in environments with more players. It's not a single person using Rush of Agony that kills me. It is their 11 buddies spamming PBAoEs and my allies with 16K health who are walking vicious death procs that kill me. Basically Cyrodiil.

Yeah exactly. Not enough fuel for VD so ROA is useless.

But VD is totally innocent?

I don't mind VD since it punishes bad decisions like stacking together. RoA makes the decision to stack together for players.

That decision is made when the player decides to block or not.

You cannot control server performance though, I find it becomes the biggest issue in really large fights when blocking and breaking free stop working.

I read a lot, that players who hate RoA, often argue with "server delay, lags" etc...

So instead of complaining about the server, they want a set removed instead O.o

I want snipe removed then. Because when I die in 1 second and see 2 snipes, a light attack and silver bolt in death recap, it must be totally the servers fault. #NerfSnipers

I read a lot of players trying to advocate for broken sets and bad mechanics because they enjoy using them. There's no good arguments for a set that violates CC rules or a set that puts players in compromised defensive positions against their will.
There are bad arguments though...like just that you enjoy easy mode

It depends in which position you are. If you are zerged by 10 players, then you often can't do much.
With RoA you can at least balance the situation a bit and can fight back, eventho your chance to win is still low. Sets like this give you the opportunity to fight back and not just getting zerged to death (It's the zergs in this case who chose the easy mode).

Sure..I saw RoA used all the time to defend against the zerg. That's totally it's use case.

I didn't said that everyone is supposed to play like this. I can only tell how I play it.
I don't like it on ballgroups too, but this doesn't mean it have to removed, just because groups are "abusing" it. Better try to fix the roots. Because it will nothing to ballgroups, if you remove the set. They will remain strong and the RoA haters will come up with other complaints.

ForumBully · April 22

Yes, please nerf

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

Orbital78 wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

It still plagues BGs as well, causing play patterns where the RoA user will keep blindly charging into the opposing team (and dying) until they get a lucky chain reaction off some poor exploding noob. All gambling, no skill.

Thankfully this set doesn't appear in 4v4s on Xbox NA. Why do you suppose that is?

RoA is best used in environments with more players. It's not a single person using Rush of Agony that kills me. It is their 11 buddies spamming PBAoEs and my allies with 16K health who are walking vicious death procs that kill me. Basically Cyrodiil.

Yeah exactly. Not enough fuel for VD so ROA is useless.

But VD is totally innocent?

I don't mind VD since it punishes bad decisions like stacking together. RoA makes the decision to stack together for players.

That decision is made when the player decides to block or not.

You cannot control server performance though, I find it becomes the biggest issue in really large fights when blocking and breaking free stop working.

I read a lot, that players who hate RoA, often argue with "server delay, lags" etc...

So instead of complaining about the server, they want a set removed instead O.o

I want snipe removed then. Because when I die in 1 second and see 2 snipes, a light attack and silver bolt in death recap, it must be totally the servers fault. #NerfSnipers

I read a lot of players trying to advocate for broken sets and bad mechanics because they enjoy using them. There's no good arguments for a set that violates CC rules or a set that puts players in compromised defensive positions against their will.
There are bad arguments though...like just that you enjoy easy mode

It depends in which position you are. If you are zerged by 10 players, then you often can't do much.
With RoA you can at least balance the situation a bit and can fight back, eventho your chance to win is still low. Sets like this give you the opportunity to fight back and not just getting zerged to death (It's the zergs in this case who chose the easy mode).

Sure..I saw RoA used all the time to defend against the zerg. That's totally it's use case.

I didn't said that everyone is supposed to play like this. I can only tell how I play it.
I don't like it on ballgroups too, but this doesn't mean it have to removed, just because groups are "abusing" it. Better try to fix the roots. Because it will nothing to ballgroups, if you remove the set. They will remain strong and the RoA haters will come up with other complaints.

I don't give a crap about ball groups, it's a bad set that creates a bad experience for players. I don't like heal stacking or cross healing either but whenever those get brought up the conversation becomes about ball groups. Ball groups happen to use bad mechanics, but those mechanics would still be bad in their absence.

Thumbless_Bot · April 22

Yes, please nerf

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

Orbital78 wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

It still plagues BGs as well, causing play patterns where the RoA user will keep blindly charging into the opposing team (and dying) until they get a lucky chain reaction off some poor exploding noob. All gambling, no skill.

Thankfully this set doesn't appear in 4v4s on Xbox NA. Why do you suppose that is?

RoA is best used in environments with more players. It's not a single person using Rush of Agony that kills me. It is their 11 buddies spamming PBAoEs and my allies with 16K health who are walking vicious death procs that kill me. Basically Cyrodiil.

Yeah exactly. Not enough fuel for VD so ROA is useless.

But VD is totally innocent?

I don't mind VD since it punishes bad decisions like stacking together. RoA makes the decision to stack together for players.

That decision is made when the player decides to block or not.

You cannot control server performance though, I find it becomes the biggest issue in really large fights when blocking and breaking free stop working.

I read a lot, that players who hate RoA, often argue with "server delay, lags" etc...

So instead of complaining about the server, they want a set removed instead O.o

I want snipe removed then. Because when I die in 1 second and see 2 snipes, a light attack and silver bolt in death recap, it must be totally the servers fault. #NerfSnipers

You read a lot but apparently didnt read about 10 comments up from yours. This has nothing to do with desync or lag or other server issues.

The set can hit everyone in a very large range.For example. In an 8v8 bg It can hit 8 players. It's the equivalent of dk chains which costs 3700 magicka and requires targeting. Thats about 26k magicka equivalent in one gcd.

The range is 453 sq meter
It can hit every 8 seconds
It hits hard
It costs at least one gcd to every enemy hit
It doesn't require targeting

It's stronger than an ultimate, even if it applies cc immunity.

This is all assuming it's even working as intended

MasterSpatula · April 22

Yes, please nerf

The Elder Scrolls Online

Is Rush of Agony too powerful?

Is Rush of Agony too powerful? 118 votes