@ZOS: Please look at these numbers about content analysis of "ball groups" on forums

darvaria · April 9

There have been over 21K of complaints mentioning "ball groups" on the forums. These complaints run from around 2020 to present day. Now, this might not include complaints about "cross healing" "heal stacking", itc.

Any market research consultant would tell you that is a statistically significant issue that should at least be investigated.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · April 9

darvaria wrote: »

There have been over 21K of complaints mentioning "ball groups" on the forums. These complaints run from around 2020 to present day. Now, this might not include complaints about "cross healing" "heal stacking", itc.

Any market research consultant would tell you that is a statistically significant issue that should at least be investigated.

You would first need to provide how these numbers are reached, how you are deciding between a post which complains about set balancing vs cross healing and ball groups in particular (how would you define this btw?)

If you're looking at post count are you considering the number of views of posts like my old groups video thread post which was the highest view count outside of the Cyrodiil FAQ in the PVP section so would you say that's a positive in favour of groups?

Everyone knows there are multiple issues with the relative power of groups when combined with the various balancing issues the game has and the maximum group size compared to the overall population cap.

These are things which ZOS has adjusted and worsened, it's not a groups fault that they want to run optimally.

darvaria · April 10

The numbers were reached by a simple word search "ball groups". The sheer amount of times mentioned 21K plus should be of interest.

Of course, nothing to be interpreted by mean word count. Of concern, of course would be some factors concerning the "n" of this sample. Validity, to the degree to which these posts are truly reflective of the player population? There is an inherent selection bias as to which players post on the forums. There is also a problem of repetitive posts by the same players that mention "ball groups".

Just saying, there is enough there to be explored. This type of analysis is a formal type of marketing research analysis called content analysis. The program my mom (she is a professor in marketing, concentrated in marketing research and has also worked for numerous outside clients) has used the most often is SAS (statistical analysis systems) Text Miner (she has used this most because the university she works at has SAS available for everyone). There are multiple programs of this type ... another one she has used quite a bit is Lexalytics. As to how many of these content analysis programs are around ..... IDK .... 50 or more. Same types of analysis is used to show who/what is trending on X, FB, TicToc, Instagram, newspapers, blogs, etc. (she uses it on pushlished articles and on focus group transcripts)

BUT with the amount of hits "ball groups" has, this is definitely something that would justify some investigation. IF ZOS cares.

Really, ZOS should have some content analysis in place to explore and see what data can be "mined" from the forums., Maybe they already have it?

But you don't need a PhD in Marketing to look down the forum post titles and see that "ball groups" is an issue for some. She told me to do this and was expecting something like 500 hits ... NOT 21K plus. More importantly, effect on revenue? login's? playing time? Just suggesting this is worth evaluating.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · April 10

darvaria wrote: »

The numbers were reached by a simple word search "ball groups". The sheer amount of times mentioned 21K plus should be of interest.

Of course, nothing to be interpreted by mean word count. Of concern, of course would be some factors concerning the "n" of this sample. Validity, to the degree to which these posts are truly reflective of the player population? There is an inherent selection bias as to which players post on the forums. There is also a problem of repetitive posts by the same players that mention "ball groups".

Just saying, there is enough there to be explored. This type of analysis is a formal type of marketing research analysis called content analysis. The program my mom (she is a professor in marketing, concentrated in marketing research and has also worked for numerous outside clients) has used the most often is SAS (statistical analysis systems) Text Miner (she has used this most because the university she works at has SAS available for everyone). There are multiple programs of this type ... another one she has used quite a bit is Lexalytics. As to how many of these content analysis programs are around ..... IDK .... 50 or more.

BUT with the amount of hits "ball groups" has, this is definitely something that would justify some investigation. IF ZOS cares.

Really, ZOS should have some content analysis in place to explore and see what data can be "mined" from the forums., Maybe they already have it?

But you don't need a PhD in Marketing to look down the forum post titles and see that "ball groups" is an issue for some. She told me to do this and was expecting something like 500 hits ... NOT 21K plus.

Ball groups is a colloquial term used by players in the game to refer to multiple group types and not all posts about them are negative. Market research by use of word matching is very inaccurate at best. For example Trial group might be referenced way more times, should we infer that trial groups are negative and need investigation?
Similar for the word '1vX' or 'zerg'.

Recency bias also needs to be considered. Sure there are multiple posts because of the poor situation pvp is in exacerbating the issue for the past 2 years where the population has decreased further and further meaning that groups of 12 are less and less outnumbered.

Also the behaviour of groups has changed too due to this. There is far more 'stacking' with other groups and factions

darvaria · April 10

@Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO Yes. But you are are N=1. I didn't express an opinion here but have in the past ... so we have reached N=2. ZOS needs to evaluate this topic. So easy to do it. What N can we reach? Eliminate double posting opinions. Therein, your answers lie. ZOS COULD initiate their own survey, just make sure it's a valid research instrument, as most polls on here have measurable bias. But a formal content analysis would provide a great starting point.

Xarc · April 10

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/search?Page=&Search=ball+group

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · April 10

darvaria wrote: »

I didn't express an opinion here but have in the past .

you implied an opinion by suggesting that all the posts mentioning 'ball groups' are 'complaints'.
I would rather ZOS spend time on actually making good changes rather than polling a tiny vocal proportion of their already diminished playerbase for answers to questions which are already apparent.

Is there an issue with group size of 12 being the maximum and population being as small as it is now? Yes
Is there a problem with group sets and abilities being overly stat/buff dense when applied across all 12 players? Yes
Is there a problem with HoT's being applied multiple times? Yes
Is there a problem with HP being overly beneficial when compared to mag and stam since hybridisation? Yes
Unbalanced/broken set mechanics - yes
speed increases being too high overall and easy to obtain for groups vs solo players - yes

None of these are 'ball group' related problems. They are ZOS balancing issues. Do so called 'ball groups' make use of these? Sure why wouldn't they.

MincMincMinc · April 10

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

darvaria wrote: »

I didn't express an opinion here but have in the past .

you implied an opinion by suggesting that all the posts mentioning 'ball groups' are 'complaints'.
I would rather ZOS spend time on actually making good changes rather than polling a tiny vocal proportion of their already diminished playerbase for answers to questions which are already apparent.

Is there an issue with group size of 12 being the maximum and population being as small as it is now? Yes
Is there a problem with group sets and abilities being overly stat/buff dense when applied across all 12 players? Yes
Is there a problem with HoT's being applied multiple times? Yes
Is there a problem with HP being overly beneficial when compared to mag and stam since hybridisation? Yes
Unbalanced/broken set mechanics - yes
speed increases being too high overall and easy to obtain for groups vs solo players - yes

None of these are 'ball group' related problems. They are ZOS balancing issues. Do so called 'ball groups' make use of these? Sure why wouldn't they.

How many posts have you seen people praise ball groups? I think we could agree that the beyond vast majority are not in favor of the 12 players lagging the server. Zos enabled it, so not much else we can do though. Honestly think things got worse after harmony and synergies were popular. Zos tried to give comp groups more "team" elements. Who would have thought giving large groups of players 2x the stats of normal players was a bad idea.......

Also literally everything you listed is applicable to ball groups. They are literally all the talking points in every ballgroup thread. Except you missed crosshealing, which was mentioned above somewhere. For ballgroups to not be an issue, the above has to be addressed to limit them in ANY capacity.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · April 10

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

darvaria wrote: »

I didn't express an opinion here but have in the past .

you implied an opinion by suggesting that all the posts mentioning 'ball groups' are 'complaints'.
I would rather ZOS spend time on actually making good changes rather than polling a tiny vocal proportion of their already diminished playerbase for answers to questions which are already apparent.

Is there an issue with group size of 12 being the maximum and population being as small as it is now? Yes
Is there a problem with group sets and abilities being overly stat/buff dense when applied across all 12 players? Yes
Is there a problem with HoT's being applied multiple times? Yes
Is there a problem with HP being overly beneficial when compared to mag and stam since hybridisation? Yes
Unbalanced/broken set mechanics - yes
speed increases being too high overall and easy to obtain for groups vs solo players - yes

None of these are 'ball group' related problems. They are ZOS balancing issues. Do so called 'ball groups' make use of these? Sure why wouldn't they.

How many posts have you seen people praise ball groups? I think we could agree that the beyond vast majority are not in favor of the 12 players lagging the server. Zos enabled it, so not much else we can do though. Honestly think things got worse after harmony and synergies were popular. Zos tried to give comp groups more "team" elements. Who would have thought giving large groups of players 2x the stats of normal players was a bad idea.......

Also literally everything you listed is applicable to ball groups. They are literally all the talking points in every ballgroup thread. Except you missed crosshealing, which was mentioned above somewhere. For ballgroups to not be an issue, the above has to be addressed to limit them in ANY capacity.

I've played pvp in ESO for a very long time at this point and checked in on the forums for just as long. So I've seen multiple posts praising groups (often times my own groups since i'm biased to this).

Whats even funnier is we've gone from complaining about the lag caused by 12-16m groups when there was a server population cap of 120+ and 72m groups roaming around on some nights (we fought them). To now posts complaining that its the 12m groups to blame when there's only 60-70 players per faction. Clearly it isn't the groups which are to blame its the servers and coding.

The point of my example about the issues the game has is that all of these issues are general problems with the game and the games balance, complaining about 'ball groups' does nothing to 'fix' these issues and instead distracts ZOS from the actual problems. ZOS aren't going to stop players from grouping up in an MMO, it already went terribly when they lowered group size from 24 to 12 because the pug guilds which are the lifeblood of the pvp environment for the most part quit as they could no longer 'outnumber' the groups they were fighting against as a valid strategy. Especially with the overall server cap being reduced too.

The_Meathead · April 10

You're both right.

Things like stacked Vigors and Shields, RoA, and so forth are problems with the game and game balance and not entirely exclusive to Ballgroups...

BUT

They are personified by Ballgroups and far less problematic elsewhere, so the complaints come out as Ballgroup specific and it's obvious something needs attention.

Nobody's noticing (or they're far less bothered) when two players stack vigors on top of one another, but when 10+ do the same it's problematic. To me, that's because heal/shield stacking needs to be drastically reduced in general, but it could also be that group ability/stat stacking mechanics specifically need to be looked at as well, so it could also be a grouping-specific method of addressing where number of players factors in as well as number of stacked abilities.

So yeah, you're both right, but the important thing is that ZOS needs to pay attention when a massive portion of their PvPers are dissatisfied with the same scenario. It's good to call attention to how ridiculous the silence has been.

MincMincMinc · April 10

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

darvaria wrote: »

I didn't express an opinion here but have in the past .

you implied an opinion by suggesting that all the posts mentioning 'ball groups' are 'complaints'.
I would rather ZOS spend time on actually making good changes rather than polling a tiny vocal proportion of their already diminished playerbase for answers to questions which are already apparent.

Is there an issue with group size of 12 being the maximum and population being as small as it is now? Yes
Is there a problem with group sets and abilities being overly stat/buff dense when applied across all 12 players? Yes
Is there a problem with HoT's being applied multiple times? Yes
Is there a problem with HP being overly beneficial when compared to mag and stam since hybridisation? Yes
Unbalanced/broken set mechanics - yes
speed increases being too high overall and easy to obtain for groups vs solo players - yes

None of these are 'ball group' related problems. They are ZOS balancing issues. Do so called 'ball groups' make use of these? Sure why wouldn't they.

How many posts have you seen people praise ball groups? I think we could agree that the beyond vast majority are not in favor of the 12 players lagging the server. Zos enabled it, so not much else we can do though. Honestly think things got worse after harmony and synergies were popular. Zos tried to give comp groups more "team" elements. Who would have thought giving large groups of players 2x the stats of normal players was a bad idea.......

Also literally everything you listed is applicable to ball groups. They are literally all the talking points in every ballgroup thread. Except you missed crosshealing, which was mentioned above somewhere. For ballgroups to not be an issue, the above has to be addressed to limit them in ANY capacity.

I've played pvp in ESO for a very long time at this point and checked in on the forums for just as long. So I've seen multiple posts praising groups (often times my own groups since i'm biased to this).

Whats even funnier is we've gone from complaining about the lag caused by 12-16m groups when there was a server population cap of 120+ and 72m groups roaming around on some nights (we fought them). To now posts complaining that its the 12m groups to blame when there's only 60-70 players per faction. Clearly it isn't the groups which are to blame its the servers and coding.

The point of my example about the issues the game has is that all of these issues are general problems with the game and the games balance, complaining about 'ball groups' does nothing to 'fix' these issues and instead distracts ZOS from the actual problems. ZOS aren't going to stop players from grouping up in an MMO, it already went terribly when they lowered group size from 24 to 12 because the pug guilds which are the lifeblood of the pvp environment for the most part quit as they could no longer 'outnumber' the groups they were fighting against as a valid strategy. Especially with the overall server cap being reduced too.

In a way this is like knowing a car will go off a cliff, but hey why not start it and keep driving it, I mean you didn't put it there right? Ball groups are doing just this. Yes they SHOULD be able/allowed to and you can, but being realistic here it will expedite the process of the game dying.

Yes I also used to run groups. For quite a few years I ran a u50 training guild fighting (8-12)v50+ groups and introducing my guildies to vet smallman. We became such a problem that I had us abstain from keep takes. Many times we had to swap factions to try and maintain a population balance so factions didn't log out for the night and kill the u50 campaign. Could I have keep taking keeps and owning the map, YES, but it would have expedited the server dying. Inevitably after moving on from the u50 server because we could rarely intervene, it ended up falling out of balance and collapsed as expected sadly...... This trend repeated on the NoCP and noproc server, How long will greyhost last?

Sure if the game was perfect there would be no issue. On the other hand running around a tinderbox with a flamethrower saying you aren't a problem is also silly.

Again why I'm all for a vengeance campaign that new players are locked in until a high cp value. Keep an active functional populated server that is perfect for learning. Use this to slowly test and work on systems for performance while building a whole new pvp experience from scratch. Even beneficial ball groups could exist here and thrive keeping zergs in check, or any that are actually worth their salt.

Oblivion_Protocol · April 14

We just got the patch notes for Update 46. ZoS has said nothing about ball groups or heal stacking, despite the overwhelming amount of complaints. The devs even pointed out several pain points in PvP (vis-a-vis, nerfing Northern Storm and adjusting Hardened Ward further). That means they’re paying attention.

They know what ball groups do and are okay with it. We might as well just get used to it, because it’s not going anywhere.

Major_Toughness · April 14

Idk how you're not already used to it they've been around for 7 years.

Joy_Division · April 15

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Idk how you're not already used to it they've been around for 7 years.

11.

darvaria · April 20

The shear number of complaints about ball groups have increased. This topic comes up more than all other topics combined.

The_Meathead · April 20

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Idk how you're not already used to it they've been around for 7 years.

They've gotten much worse.

RoA and scribing Shields have definitely catapulted the mediocre ones into new strength.