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Subclassing and the Buffs will SAVE this game, not "Break" it
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Wereswan✭✭✭✭Let's try this: suppose ZOS is determined to go ahead with this system as currently designed. Suppose they also say "now that's it's trivially easy to complete veteran hardmode, we're creating an additional tier of difficulty, renaming that 'veteran hardmode,' and the existing tiers of difficulty will be renamed 'easy,' 'moderate' (for the existing 'veteran,') and 'veteran' (for the existing 'veteran hardmode.')
That cool, or are we right back at "woe, I am being gatekept?"
Because that's the basic issue here; people play veteran hardmode because they want a challenge. If you take all the challenge out of it, it's not "veteran hardmode" anymore.
Ok lets try.
1. That will never happen.
2. That is an extreme. Going from Not feasible at all for most to now "i can try and challenge myself" is not a destruction of many HM's.
Sure, it won't happen—what's much, much more likely to happen is that veteran and veteran hardmode get rebalanced to account for the power leap, and we're right back where we started.
But if it did happen, and there was a new fourth tier of difficulty occupying the same spot veteran hardmode currently does... would you be cool with that, or are we right back at "this is so unfair!"1 -
TORCH15✭✭✭Let's try this: suppose ZOS is determined to go ahead with this system as currently designed. Suppose they also say "now that's it's trivially easy to complete veteran hardmode, we're creating an additional tier of difficulty, renaming that 'veteran hardmode,' and the existing tiers of difficulty will be renamed 'easy,' 'moderate' (for the existing 'veteran,') and 'veteran' (for the existing 'veteran hardmode.')
That cool, or are we right back at "woe, I am being gatekept?"
Because that's the basic issue here; people play veteran hardmode because they want a challenge. If you take all the challenge out of it, it's not "veteran hardmode" anymore.
Ok lets try.
1. That will never happen.
2. That is an extreme. Going from Not feasible at all for most to now "i can try and challenge myself" is not a destruction of many HM's.
Sure, it won't happen—what's much, much more likely to happen is that veteran and veteran hardmode get rebalanced to account for the power leap, and we're right back where we started.
But if it did happen, and there was a new fourth tier of difficulty occupying the same spot veteran hardmode currently does... would you be cool with that, or are we right back at "this is so unfair!"
I completely agree that tune up of difficulty in the trials is a possibility.
I never said "this is so unfair". Just so thats made clear.
I get that you are trying to argue in hypotheticals to find a "gotcha" moment here, but i dont see how thats constructive to the topic. But to answer, if that was released, we would just have to see what it was, see the data, see how players tackle it and go from there. It wouldnt change my feelings on anything regarding variety and class power accessibility for content.0 -
Wereswan✭✭✭✭Let's try this: suppose ZOS is determined to go ahead with this system as currently designed. Suppose they also say "now that's it's trivially easy to complete veteran hardmode, we're creating an additional tier of difficulty, renaming that 'veteran hardmode,' and the existing tiers of difficulty will be renamed 'easy,' 'moderate' (for the existing 'veteran,') and 'veteran' (for the existing 'veteran hardmode.')
That cool, or are we right back at "woe, I am being gatekept?"
Because that's the basic issue here; people play veteran hardmode because they want a challenge. If you take all the challenge out of it, it's not "veteran hardmode" anymore.
Ok lets try.
1. That will never happen.
2. That is an extreme. Going from Not feasible at all for most to now "i can try and challenge myself" is not a destruction of many HM's.
Sure, it won't happen—what's much, much more likely to happen is that veteran and veteran hardmode get rebalanced to account for the power leap, and we're right back where we started.
But if it did happen, and there was a new fourth tier of difficulty occupying the same spot veteran hardmode currently does... would you be cool with that, or are we right back at "this is so unfair!"
I completely agree that tune up of difficulty in the trials is a possibility.
I never said "this is so unfair". Just so thats made clear.
I get that you are trying to argue in hypotheticals to find a "gotcha" moment here, but i dont see how thats constructive to the topic. But to answer, if that was released, we would just have to see what it was, see the data, see how players tackle it and go from there. It wouldnt change my feelings on anything regarding variety and class power accessibility for content.
You are saying "that's unfair," though; the whole crux of your argument is that it's somehow unfair to expect people to put in the time and effort to become good enough to get through these trials, and thus that it's a positive that raw damage is about to take an abrupt leap upwards so that skill becomes less relevant.
This doesn't give those players anything; they'll be handed an achievement they didn't earn. What it does do is take something from the folks who want a serious challenge.6 -
TORCH15✭✭✭Let's try this: suppose ZOS is determined to go ahead with this system as currently designed. Suppose they also say "now that's it's trivially easy to complete veteran hardmode, we're creating an additional tier of difficulty, renaming that 'veteran hardmode,' and the existing tiers of difficulty will be renamed 'easy,' 'moderate' (for the existing 'veteran,') and 'veteran' (for the existing 'veteran hardmode.')
That cool, or are we right back at "woe, I am being gatekept?"
Because that's the basic issue here; people play veteran hardmode because they want a challenge. If you take all the challenge out of it, it's not "veteran hardmode" anymore.
Ok lets try.
1. That will never happen.
2. That is an extreme. Going from Not feasible at all for most to now "i can try and challenge myself" is not a destruction of many HM's.
Sure, it won't happen—what's much, much more likely to happen is that veteran and veteran hardmode get rebalanced to account for the power leap, and we're right back where we started.
But if it did happen, and there was a new fourth tier of difficulty occupying the same spot veteran hardmode currently does... would you be cool with that, or are we right back at "this is so unfair!"
I completely agree that tune up of difficulty in the trials is a possibility.
I never said "this is so unfair". Just so thats made clear.
I get that you are trying to argue in hypotheticals to find a "gotcha" moment here, but i dont see how thats constructive to the topic. But to answer, if that was released, we would just have to see what it was, see the data, see how players tackle it and go from there. It wouldnt change my feelings on anything regarding variety and class power accessibility for content.
You are saying "that's unfair," though; the whole crux of your argument is that it's somehow unfair to expect people to put in the time and effort to become good enough to get through these trials, and thus that it's a positive that raw damage is about to take an abrupt leap upwards so that skill becomes less relevant.
This doesn't give those players anything; they'll be handed an achievement they didn't earn. What it does do is take something from the folks who want a serious challenge.
Saying this is going to hand an achievement to someone that didnt earn it is 1. Completely overexaggerating and also contradiction to what many go back and forth saying "the dps isnt gunna make a difference because mechs"(which i can consider being valid as ive stated before) and 2. Proof that my initial thought was the pushback in these forums is from people mad about others having an easier time than they did which , as I have also stated before, is at least honest so respect to you for being honest why you at least in part dont like this for other people.
The part of taking away from people having a serious challenge. I think its too early to say? I dont think for example this change is going to make PB a whole lot easier. Its still going to be difficult to ND a VRGHM. But, maybe will be. It could make tanks unkillable. Could allow enough dps for 7 dps and 3 tanks. To ME, that sounds fun to maneuver through those decisions though.
You like talking hypotheticals. What if this was the dps level all along for the last say, 8 years and instead of 200 people on the leaderboards constantly, it was 800 different names swapping out and instead of say, 10% of players having a title like EoF, it was 40%.( these are made up but im spitballing numbers here) Would you be here complaining that the end game is too crowded? You gave me a hypothetical. There's yours.
0 -
Wereswan✭✭✭✭Let's try this: suppose ZOS is determined to go ahead with this system as currently designed. Suppose they also say "now that's it's trivially easy to complete veteran hardmode, we're creating an additional tier of difficulty, renaming that 'veteran hardmode,' and the existing tiers of difficulty will be renamed 'easy,' 'moderate' (for the existing 'veteran,') and 'veteran' (for the existing 'veteran hardmode.')
That cool, or are we right back at "woe, I am being gatekept?"
Because that's the basic issue here; people play veteran hardmode because they want a challenge. If you take all the challenge out of it, it's not "veteran hardmode" anymore.
Ok lets try.
1. That will never happen.
2. That is an extreme. Going from Not feasible at all for most to now "i can try and challenge myself" is not a destruction of many HM's.
Sure, it won't happen—what's much, much more likely to happen is that veteran and veteran hardmode get rebalanced to account for the power leap, and we're right back where we started.
But if it did happen, and there was a new fourth tier of difficulty occupying the same spot veteran hardmode currently does... would you be cool with that, or are we right back at "this is so unfair!"
I completely agree that tune up of difficulty in the trials is a possibility.
I never said "this is so unfair". Just so thats made clear.
I get that you are trying to argue in hypotheticals to find a "gotcha" moment here, but i dont see how thats constructive to the topic. But to answer, if that was released, we would just have to see what it was, see the data, see how players tackle it and go from there. It wouldnt change my feelings on anything regarding variety and class power accessibility for content.
You are saying "that's unfair," though; the whole crux of your argument is that it's somehow unfair to expect people to put in the time and effort to become good enough to get through these trials, and thus that it's a positive that raw damage is about to take an abrupt leap upwards so that skill becomes less relevant.
This doesn't give those players anything; they'll be handed an achievement they didn't earn. What it does do is take something from the folks who want a serious challenge.
Saying this is going to hand an achievement to someone that didnt earn it is 1. Completely overexaggerating and also contradiction to what many go back and forth saying "the dps isnt gunna make a difference because mechs"(which i can consider being valid as ive stated before) and 2. Proof that my initial thought was the pushback in these forums is from people mad about others having an easier time than they did which , as I have also stated before, is at least honest so respect to you for being honest why you at least in part dont like this for other people.
I "earned" the Volendrung Vanquisher achievement during Whitestrake's Mayhem? Wanna know how I got it?
I was running away from a ballgroup.
I've no idea what happened. Maybe I threw a heal on the person who actually did the deed at some point, and the server said "eh, close enough." Perhaps it was a server glitch—it happened the night before they had to take the Blackreach campaign down for maintenance. Whatever the reason, I'm now the not-so-proud owner of an achievement I feel like I did absolutely nothing to earn.
I felt that way about my Dragon Slayer achievement, too; I "earned" it by being part of a whole mob of players farming dragons during the "Slay Dragons, Save Cats" event. I used to describe it as "I was in the vicinity when a dragon was slain." It took awhile for me to reach the level where I actually feel like I'm making a serious contribution at the dragonscours.
You argue there's a contradiction between "more damage is going to trivialize fights" and "more damage won't help with mechs. There isn't. As I said before, I've had the misfortune of being in normal Cloudreach groups where people thought they could just ignore the mechs and burn Z'maja down, only to portal wipe repeatedly. It's going to be the worst of both worlds, where players who've gotten used to just blithely burning through everything being stymied by mechs they can't DPS their way past. Wipes, and the ensuing wait to refill the group when half the players drop out, waste a whole lot more of my time than taking a minute or two more to kill the boss does.
As for the cheap shot about "being mad about others having an easier time," I checked last night and my best alts put out around 45-50K damage, with the rest more like 20-30K. I don't do vet content, because I know I'm not there yet. I may never be good enough. If I ever get hard mode achievements, I want it to be because I truly earned them. To my mind, breezing through vet content because everyone has broken builds now does not qualify.The part of taking away from people having a serious challenge. I think its too early to say? I dont think for example this change is going to make PB a whole lot easier. Its still going to be difficult to ND a VRGHM. But, maybe will be. It could make tanks unkillable. Could allow enough dps for 7 dps and 3 tanks. To ME, that sounds fun to maneuver through those decisions though.
It is only the first week of PTS, true—but if we start seeing groups sleepwalking through some of the toughest content in the game, is that going to change your mind?You like talking hypotheticals. What if this was the dps level all along for the last say, 8 years and instead of 200 people on the leaderboards constantly, it was 800 different names swapping out and instead of say, 10% of players having a title like EoF, it was 40%.( these are made up but im spitballing numbers here) Would you be here complaining that the end game is too crowded? You gave me a hypothetical. There's yours.
I'm confused as to what the question is supposed to be. If it had always been this way, nothing would be changing. The whole point is that this represents a drastic leap in power that's going to be massively disruptive.
Now perhaps you could give a direct answer to mine.Edited by Wereswan on 18 April 2025 23:091 -
TORCH15✭✭✭Let's try this: suppose ZOS is determined to go ahead with this system as currently designed. Suppose they also say "now that's it's trivially easy to complete veteran hardmode, we're creating an additional tier of difficulty, renaming that 'veteran hardmode,' and the existing tiers of difficulty will be renamed 'easy,' 'moderate' (for the existing 'veteran,') and 'veteran' (for the existing 'veteran hardmode.')
That cool, or are we right back at "woe, I am being gatekept?"
Because that's the basic issue here; people play veteran hardmode because they want a challenge. If you take all the challenge out of it, it's not "veteran hardmode" anymore.
Ok lets try.
1. That will never happen.
2. That is an extreme. Going from Not feasible at all for most to now "i can try and challenge myself" is not a destruction of many HM's.
Sure, it won't happen—what's much, much more likely to happen is that veteran and veteran hardmode get rebalanced to account for the power leap, and we're right back where we started.
But if it did happen, and there was a new fourth tier of difficulty occupying the same spot veteran hardmode currently does... would you be cool with that, or are we right back at "this is so unfair!"
I completely agree that tune up of difficulty in the trials is a possibility.
I never said "this is so unfair". Just so thats made clear.
I get that you are trying to argue in hypotheticals to find a "gotcha" moment here, but i dont see how thats constructive to the topic. But to answer, if that was released, we would just have to see what it was, see the data, see how players tackle it and go from there. It wouldnt change my feelings on anything regarding variety and class power accessibility for content.
You are saying "that's unfair," though; the whole crux of your argument is that it's somehow unfair to expect people to put in the time and effort to become good enough to get through these trials, and thus that it's a positive that raw damage is about to take an abrupt leap upwards so that skill becomes less relevant.
This doesn't give those players anything; they'll be handed an achievement they didn't earn. What it does do is take something from the folks who want a serious challenge.
Saying this is going to hand an achievement to someone that didnt earn it is 1. Completely overexaggerating and also contradiction to what many go back and forth saying "the dps isnt gunna make a difference because mechs"(which i can consider being valid as ive stated before) and 2. Proof that my initial thought was the pushback in these forums is from people mad about others having an easier time than they did which , as I have also stated before, is at least honest so respect to you for being honest why you at least in part dont like this for other people.
I "earned" the Volendrung Vanquisher achievement during Whitestrake's Mayhem? Wanna know how I got it?
I was running away from a ballgroup.
I've no idea what happened. Maybe I threw a heal on the person who actually did the deed at some point, and the server said "eh, close enough." Perhaps it was a server glitch—it happened the night before they had to take the Blackreach campaign down for maintenance. Whatever the reason, I'm now the not-so-proud owner of an achievement I feel like I did absolutely nothing to earn.
I felt that way about my Dragon Slayer achievement, too; I "earned" it by being part of a whole mob of players farming dragons during the "Slay Dragons, Save Cats" event. I used to describe it as "I was in the vicinity when a dragon was slain." It took awhile for me to reach the level where I actually feel like I'm making a serious contribution at the dragonscours.
You argue there's a contradiction between "more damage is going to trivialize fights" and "more damage won't help with mechs. There isn't. As I said before, I've had the misfortune of being in normal Cloudreach groups where people thought they could just ignore the mechs and burn Z'maja down, only to portal wipe repeatedly. It's going to be the worst of both worlds, where players who've gotten used to just blithely burning through everything being stymied by mechs they can't DPS their way past. Wipes, and the ensuing wait to refill the group when half the players drop out, waste a whole lot more of my time than taking a minute or two more to kill the boss does.
As for the cheap shot about "being mad about others having an easier time," I checked last night and my best alts put out around 45-50K damage, with the rest more like 20-30K. I don't do vet content, because I know I'm not there yet. I may never be good enough. If I ever get hard mode achievements, I want it to be because I truly earned them. To my mind, breezing through vet content because everyone has broken builds now does not qualify.The part of taking away from people having a serious challenge. I think its too early to say? I dont think for example this change is going to make PB a whole lot easier. Its still going to be difficult to ND a VRGHM. But, maybe will be. It could make tanks unkillable. Could allow enough dps for 7 dps and 3 tanks. To ME, that sounds fun to maneuver through those decisions though.
It is only the first week of PTS, true—but if we start seeing groups sleepwalking through some of the toughest content in the game, is that going to change your mind?You like talking hypotheticals. What if this was the dps level all along for the last say, 8 years and instead of 200 people on the leaderboards constantly, it was 800 different names swapping out and instead of say, 10% of players having a title like EoF, it was 40%.( these are made up but im spitballing numbers here) Would you be here complaining that the end game is too crowded? You gave me a hypothetical. There's yours.
I'm confused as to what the question is supposed to be. If it had always been this way, nothing would be changing. The whole point is that this represents a drastic leap in power that's going to be massively disruptive.
Now perhaps you could give a direct answer to mine.
Well, i can tell you that ive literally had people add me on discord over this thread because they are in agreeance about this (but dont want to comment here because of the condescending tones of those opposing my opinions). Had someone message me and tell me he had 3 kids, is mid tier, but feels this update will give him the chance to accelerate to content he cant do right now because he feels too limited or restricted by current groups. Thanks me for what i posted and wants to join up and play someday. So, while you may worry about things not being hard enough, theres a lot of folks out there that feel differently. I think thats an important aspect to think about with this update and shouldnt be ignored.
I really think the grim, "this is game ruining" attitude is a total overreaction for a multitude of reasons.
Yea, see how hypotheticals dont really work in a discussion lol?
I fundamentally disagree this is massively disruptive. I think it will bring in a massive variety of new ways to play a game thats been on its downward trend for some time now. An MMO losing players becomes less fun. An MMO gaining players is more fun. Thats how MMO's work. How does ZoS bring players back? A big boost in power and hundreds of new ways to play is a great way. A few people on forums that live and breath ESO being upset about it i dont think really represents the impact of this very well imo.
Lets hop off trials for a moment and take, VBRP for an example. If 70% of the player base doesnt have a VBRP clear and this boost causes 50% of those players to come back and play more because they suddenly can do that content now, that is a win for the community and the game itself. Will 5% of players blow through it like its nothing now and be bored with VBRP? Maybe. Probably. The 50% outweighs them though, so that doesnt matter. Thats the truth.Edited by TORCH15 on 18 April 2025 23:320 -
BananaBender✭✭✭✭✭Let's try this: suppose ZOS is determined to go ahead with this system as currently designed. Suppose they also say "now that's it's trivially easy to complete veteran hardmode, we're creating an additional tier of difficulty, renaming that 'veteran hardmode,' and the existing tiers of difficulty will be renamed 'easy,' 'moderate' (for the existing 'veteran,') and 'veteran' (for the existing 'veteran hardmode.')
That cool, or are we right back at "woe, I am being gatekept?"
Because that's the basic issue here; people play veteran hardmode because they want a challenge. If you take all the challenge out of it, it's not "veteran hardmode" anymore.
Ok lets try.
1. That will never happen.
2. That is an extreme. Going from Not feasible at all for most to now "i can try and challenge myself" is not a destruction of many HM's.
Sure, it won't happen—what's much, much more likely to happen is that veteran and veteran hardmode get rebalanced to account for the power leap, and we're right back where we started.
But if it did happen, and there was a new fourth tier of difficulty occupying the same spot veteran hardmode currently does... would you be cool with that, or are we right back at "this is so unfair!"
I completely agree that tune up of difficulty in the trials is a possibility.
I never said "this is so unfair". Just so thats made clear.
I get that you are trying to argue in hypotheticals to find a "gotcha" moment here, but i dont see how thats constructive to the topic. But to answer, if that was released, we would just have to see what it was, see the data, see how players tackle it and go from there. It wouldnt change my feelings on anything regarding variety and class power accessibility for content.
You are saying "that's unfair," though; the whole crux of your argument is that it's somehow unfair to expect people to put in the time and effort to become good enough to get through these trials, and thus that it's a positive that raw damage is about to take an abrupt leap upwards so that skill becomes less relevant.
This doesn't give those players anything; they'll be handed an achievement they didn't earn. What it does do is take something from the folks who want a serious challenge.
The part of taking away from people having a serious challenge. I think its too early to say? I dont think for example this change is going to make PB a whole lot easier. Its still going to be difficult to ND a VRGHM. But, maybe will be. It could make tanks unkillable. Could allow enough dps for 7 dps and 3 tanks. To ME, that sounds fun to maneuver through those decisions though.
I just don't see a world where you would go for a third tank or a healer even if the damage was cranked up to a ridiculous levels, because that's just not how the fights work.
Adding a third tank to fight that doesn't require it will just make things harder. The faster you kill stuff, the easier it is to play. You can see this already in action in the older trials. You could clear them with 5DDs, but instead groups opt to do 10DDs, 1, 1T, because it's just easier. Every resource spent on not getting the boss' HP to 0 is making the fight harder instead of easier. Adding a third tank on Bahsei is going to spread your heals further apart, making the healers life miserable, the two tanks tanking abominations will have to coordinate the slams which will force the abominations being further apart from another which makes them take less damage resulting in more slams, which leads to less space for the group to manoeuvre. Instead, having more damage would result in the abominations dying faster, possibly skipping a few of them during Bahsei's animations, which would result in significantly easier fight.
Ansuul is the only fight where groups consistently opt for a third healer, and it's not because there is too much damage done by the players, instead it's because of the healing required to stay alive through all the mechanics consistently.You like talking hypotheticals. What if this was the dps level all along for the last say, 8 years and instead of 200 people on the leaderboards constantly, it was 800 different names swapping out and instead of say, 10% of players having a title like EoF, it was 40%.( these are made up but im spitballing numbers here) Would you be here complaining that the end game is too crowded? You gave me a hypothetical. There's yours.
There wouldn't be 800 names swapping places, because that's not how raising the floor works. It will just narrow the difference between the 1st and the 200th place. Because the people at the top are there because they are really good at the game. So if you add a really powerful mechanic, the best players are the ones who know how to get the most out of the system.
About the titles, if 40% of people get an HM title which used to be 10%, it's not going to crowd the endgame, it's just no longer going to be considered "endgame". If a prestigious college only let's in 10% of applicants, but suddenly starts letting in 40%, is it going to be considered prestigious for much longer?Lets hop off trials for a moment and take, VBRP for an example. If 70% of the player base doesnt have a VBRP clear and this boost causes 50% of those players to come back and play more because they suddenly can do that content now, that is a win for the community and the game itself. Will 5% of players blow through it like its nothing now and be bored with VBRP? Maybe. Probably. The 50% outweighs them though, so that doesnt matter. Thats the truth.
It doesn't matter how many people have or haven't cleared vBRP, because most people just don't care about clearing it in the first place. The only real number that has any meaning here would be, how many people have attempted and really tried to clear vBRP and failed? The number is much much much lower than 70% of the players. There are some I'm sure, but it's not even close to being a majority. A large part of the playerbase just don't like group content and nothing about this update is going to change that.1 -
TORCH15✭✭✭BananaBender wrote: »Let's try this: suppose ZOS is determined to go ahead with this system as currently designed. Suppose they also say "now that's it's trivially easy to complete veteran hardmode, we're creating an additional tier of difficulty, renaming that 'veteran hardmode,' and the existing tiers of difficulty will be renamed 'easy,' 'moderate' (for the existing 'veteran,') and 'veteran' (for the existing 'veteran hardmode.')
That cool, or are we right back at "woe, I am being gatekept?"
Because that's the basic issue here; people play veteran hardmode because they want a challenge. If you take all the challenge out of it, it's not "veteran hardmode" anymore.
Ok lets try.
1. That will never happen.
2. That is an extreme. Going from Not feasible at all for most to now "i can try and challenge myself" is not a destruction of many HM's.
Sure, it won't happen—what's much, much more likely to happen is that veteran and veteran hardmode get rebalanced to account for the power leap, and we're right back where we started.
But if it did happen, and there was a new fourth tier of difficulty occupying the same spot veteran hardmode currently does... would you be cool with that, or are we right back at "this is so unfair!"
I completely agree that tune up of difficulty in the trials is a possibility.
I never said "this is so unfair". Just so thats made clear.
I get that you are trying to argue in hypotheticals to find a "gotcha" moment here, but i dont see how thats constructive to the topic. But to answer, if that was released, we would just have to see what it was, see the data, see how players tackle it and go from there. It wouldnt change my feelings on anything regarding variety and class power accessibility for content.
You are saying "that's unfair," though; the whole crux of your argument is that it's somehow unfair to expect people to put in the time and effort to become good enough to get through these trials, and thus that it's a positive that raw damage is about to take an abrupt leap upwards so that skill becomes less relevant.
This doesn't give those players anything; they'll be handed an achievement they didn't earn. What it does do is take something from the folks who want a serious challenge.
The part of taking away from people having a serious challenge. I think its too early to say? I dont think for example this change is going to make PB a whole lot easier. Its still going to be difficult to ND a VRGHM. But, maybe will be. It could make tanks unkillable. Could allow enough dps for 7 dps and 3 tanks. To ME, that sounds fun to maneuver through those decisions though.
I just don't see a world where you would go for a third tank or a healer even if the damage was cranked up to a ridiculous levels, because that's just not how the fights work.
Adding a third tank to fight that doesn't require it will just make things harder. The faster you kill stuff, the easier it is to play. You can see this already in action in the older trials. You could clear them with 5DDs, but instead groups opt to do 10DDs, 1, 1T, because it's just easier. Every resource spent on not getting the boss' HP to 0 is making the fight harder instead of easier. Adding a third tank on Bahsei is going to spread your heals further apart, making the healers life miserable, the two tanks tanking abominations will have to coordinate the slams which will force the abominations being further apart from another which makes them take less damage resulting in more slams, which leads to less space for the group to manoeuvre. Instead, having more damage would result in the abominations dying faster, possibly skipping a few of them during Bahsei's animations, which would result in significantly easier fight.
Ansuul is the only fight where groups consistently opt for a third healer, and it's not because there is too much damage done by the players, instead it's because of the healing required to stay alive through all the mechanics consistently.You like talking hypotheticals. What if this was the dps level all along for the last say, 8 years and instead of 200 people on the leaderboards constantly, it was 800 different names swapping out and instead of say, 10% of players having a title like EoF, it was 40%.( these are made up but im spitballing numbers here) Would you be here complaining that the end game is too crowded? You gave me a hypothetical. There's yours.
There wouldn't be 800 names swapping places, because that's not how raising the floor works. It will just narrow the difference between the 1st and the 200th place. Because the people at the top are there because they are really good at the game. So if you add a really powerful mechanic, the best players are the ones who know how to get the most out of the system.
About the titles, if 40% of people get an HM title which used to be 10%, it's not going to crowd the endgame, it's just no longer going to be considered "endgame". If a prestigious college only let's in 10% of applicants, but suddenly starts letting in 40%, is it going to be considered prestigious for much longer?Lets hop off trials for a moment and take, VBRP for an example. If 70% of the player base doesnt have a VBRP clear and this boost causes 50% of those players to come back and play more because they suddenly can do that content now, that is a win for the community and the game itself. Will 5% of players blow through it like its nothing now and be bored with VBRP? Maybe. Probably. The 50% outweighs them though, so that doesnt matter. Thats the truth.
It doesn't matter how many people have or haven't cleared vBRP, because most people just don't care about clearing it in the first place. The only real number that has any meaning here would be, how many people have attempted and really tried to clear vBRP and failed? The number is much much much lower than 70% of the players. There are some I'm sure, but it's not even close to being a majority. A large part of the playerbase just don't like group content and nothing about this update is going to change that.
Based on the people I've come across, the feelings arent mutual to everything you just said.
What will happen is a large power creep at the end of the day and a lot of people will have fun with it.
If it stays this way and I decide to lead more progs after June, ill be excited to ask someone "what do you want to play" and then make it work for a group rather than "looking for 1 110k Stamsorc with MK or 110k necro with WM or MA". Having 26 new options to fill those spots to meet the group dps goal sounds great to me1 -
TORCH15✭✭✭Edit: Responding to FoJul
[/quote]
You best bet your last dollar, Im fixing to finally get my swashbuckler title on my rangeblade.
I never did it before, because rangeblade couldn't even break 100k dps, I never even attempted Swash.
Edit: With subclassing, PvP'ers are likely to come over to PvE too. Increasing numbers. Im a PvP'er so I know me and my group will.[/quote]
I missed this comment by you but want to add. I have some really good friends who PVP and are excited in the same way about PVE but they are super concerned about PVP. It will be interesting to see what happens in PVP as well, Id imagine that will likely be a pretty dramatic new environment. And i use to main a magblade , im pretty excited that a blade will be playable again whether its through subclass or just pure honestly.Edited by TORCH15 on 19 April 2025 04:260 -
FoJul✭✭✭✭Edit: Responding to FoJul
You best bet your last dollar, Im fixing to finally get my swashbuckler title on my rangeblade.
I never did it before, because rangeblade couldn't even break 100k dps, I never even attempted Swash.
Edit: With subclassing, PvP'ers are likely to come over to PvE too. Increasing numbers. Im a PvP'er so I know me and my group will.
I missed this comment by you but want to add. I have some really good friends who PVP and are excited in the same way about PVE but they are super concerned about PVP. It will be interesting to see what happens in PVP as well, Id imagine that will likely be a pretty dramatic new environment. And i use to main a magblade , im pretty excited that a blade will be playable again whether its through subclass or just pure honestly.
I have a pureclass rangeblade build thats pretty strong RN. if rangeblade is what you are referring to. *Ill never abandon rangeblade*.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildEditor?id=676110
It looks goofy for a setup, but its real easy to get used too.
Yes there is huge concerns. Like Corrosive Armor, Animal Companions skill line being overtuned, Double proc bows, Pureclasses being useless. And of course, the biggest one crossheals and their correlation with ball groups. Those are just some of the vast number of concerning major issues.
Minor issues, my dueling guild, Cyrodil guild, and both BG's guilds arent as excited as me, because they already foresee groups running around with 50k hp and polar.
The duelers are more focused on making the most absurd abominations. 100% unavoidable burst, infinite sustain, double purging, things of that nature.
Edited by FoJul on 19 April 2025 05:001 -
TORCH15✭✭✭Edit: Responding to FoJul
You best bet your last dollar, Im fixing to finally get my swashbuckler title on my rangeblade.
I never did it before, because rangeblade couldn't even break 100k dps, I never even attempted Swash.
Edit: With subclassing, PvP'ers are likely to come over to PvE too. Increasing numbers. Im a PvP'er so I know me and my group will.
I missed this comment by you but want to add. I have some really good friends who PVP and are excited in the same way about PVE but they are super concerned about PVP. It will be interesting to see what happens in PVP as well, Id imagine that will likely be a pretty dramatic new environment. And i use to main a magblade , im pretty excited that a blade will be playable again whether its through subclass or just pure honestly.
I have a pureclass rangeblade build thats pretty strong RN. if rangeblade is what you are referring to. *Ill never abandon rangeblade*.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildEditor?id=676110
It looks goofy for a setup, but its real easy to get used too.
Yes there is huge concerns. Like Corrosive Armor, Animal Companions skill line being overtuned, Double proc bows, Pureclasses being useless. And of course, the biggest one crossheals and their correlation with ball groups. Those are just some of the vast number of concerning major issues.
Minor issues, my dueling guild, Cyrodil guild, and both BG's guilds arent as excited as me, because they already foresee groups running around with 50k hp and polar.
The duelers are more focused on making the most absurd abominations. 100% unavoidable burst, infinite sustain, double purging, things of that nature.
I think PVP has a chance at needing an update geared towards it with all this much more than PvE for sure.1 -
gc0018✭✭✭How is arcanist the only option? Arcanist may be meta, but if the content difficulty remains unchanged, the current meta is 120k arcanists now.
Though an undergraduate student may be able to do a certain job as good as a PhD, with the same amount of salary why won't company ask for a PhD?
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gc0018✭✭✭sans-culottes wrote: »But I don't like the attitude of people expecting hard content to be handed to them as a participation prize. You still need to work for it, even if the way you work for it is different and not as difficult as the way I had to work for it.
Some of the contexts should be remain hard. It will be like a final goal to many players to motivate them improve their skill. It is like the mountain Everest to many climbers.
Images not allowed, sad1 -
DimeN3Pennys✭✭✭sans-culottes wrote: »But I don't like the attitude of people expecting hard content to be handed to them as a participation prize. You still need to work for it, even if the way you work for it is different and not as difficult as the way I had to work for it.
Some of the contexts should be remain hard. It will be like a final goal to many players to motivate them improve their skill. It is like the mountain Everest to many climbers.
People like the OP just want a jetpack so they can rocket to the top, they don't want to climb3 -
Zyaneth_Bal✭✭✭✭✭sans-culottes wrote: »That’s a flattering narrative, but it’s not an accurate one. This isn’t about being “mad” that others will have access to power. It’s about a systemic shift away from meaningful class structure and identity toward an increasingly modular, even more spreadsheet-like meta.
Subclassing doesn’t fix broken skills or outdated kits. It circumvents them. And if the best path forward becomes cobbling together a composite build with the best-performing lines, then yes, that does reduce the reason to play a class as a class. It changes the fantasy, not just the function. For those of us who enjoy both performance and thematic cohesion, this feels like a degradation, not an upgrade.
Some players enjoy min-maxing and optimization. Others enjoy tight, well-developed archetypes. Both have always existed in ESO. The concern is that this new direction sacrifices the latter to please the former, while hand-waving any discontent as elitism or insecurity.
This is a phenomenally written post, getting to the heart of the issue. It explains perfectly a sentiment I tried to write and failed with many more words.
The only thing I would add is that this solution potentially also sacrifices the potential art of group composition, if any class can have access to anything. I don't have space on PTS, so I haven't tested myself.
In my humble opinion, ESO has been going down the road of sacrificing something for the sake of something else more and more often, and when this happens the outcome is a worse game with a less broad appeal, and often alienates a segment of longtime dedicated players. Examples include AwA, where we lost character historical data and tracking, the long period of time when group queuing was removed from BG's, and the myriad of changes done for "performance" but not reversed when it was confirmed that the changes did not improve performance.
I can absolutely see the appeal of subclasses, and I, too, feel the little pull of excitement to think of "what will I be able to combine together?" and I have zero resentment if this helps "raise the floor" -- I am a fan of one bar builds and the arcanist class. However, I don't want to lose the "feel' of my templar, my warden, my arc, and so on, and if, due to balancing, the pure classes essentially become nonviable for all content except overland... this will feel like another "loss," I suspect. I just wish that new functionality could be rolled out more slowly and thoughtfully so it accomplishes the "new idea" while not killing a current, fun feature.
Pureclasses only being viable in overland doesnt seem to be the way this is going though? Pureclasses are used now all the way to SS so essentially a group can still do that if they so choose. Of course, they would be turning down the option of higher power without subclassing but if they want to then its still viable(for highly skilled players with the time). I put that in my OP as well so i do struggle understanding that argument. I guess that argument stands true if the community rejects pureclasses and I dont think they will and maybe that is where the disagreement lies.
What you said is true only for pve but not for pvp where one build is always weighted against another.
Besides, knowingly handicapping yourself feels bad whatever the reason, I’m sure everyone can agree on this.
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ZOS_IcymodGreetings,
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