Tra_Lalan wrote: »

Subclasing is a great idea, but not like this..

The power should come with a cost. Currently it is like mythics without disadvantages. You can leave it as it is, and break the game (making players too powerful and also forcing everyone to subclas), or nerf all class abilities and not brake the game but you will still make all players angry that they got nerfed.

The only solution i see is:
The skills that you pick up from other classes should be less powerfull than they are originaly (when you are in that class). They should only do some % of original power. This way you will still have an option to create a stronger character with other skill trees, but it wouldnt brake the game. You would also have many new options for casual playing like pet sorc with a bear and so on.

The passives are more problematic than the active skills. Nerfing tooltips isn't going to change anything.

Zallion wrote: »

said no one ever wrote: »

look. it's the same thing every release cycle. the new shiny is released OP and stays OP until it's no longer the new shiny and it gets nerfed or possibly reduced by the next new shiny. it's marketing 101. that way everyone adopts it and everyone plays into the hype. it's just the normal release cycle, nothing to see here.... move along..

Id agree with your point here if it wasn’t such an egregious departure from the games original design. I’m okay with things being OP every now and then like a new set or class. Not cool with my class choice meaning much less in the end because I’ll need to subclass into other trees to stay relevant.

You do realize the games original design absolutely failed right? And this comes directly from the devs. They wanted to make a true ESO MMO, but acknowledged after a year that it failed because that's not what the majority wanted- they wanted 'Skyrim with friends' so that's why they implemented One Tamriel. Skyrim doesn't have classes, and clinging to this concept based on an admittedly failed design, is what's holding ESO back- and I think the devs have realized that. To push forward with the 'Skyrim with friends'- we need to make it more fundamentally like Skyrim. But, since abolishing classes would be a major rework of the entire game's failed foundation, they found a different way to approach it.

CaptainRele wrote: »

snip

I agree that subclassing should be restricted to unscored non-veteran instances (so, normal dungeons, trials, and arenas and overland, but not Battlegrounds, Cyrodiil, Infinite Archive, or veteran dungeons, trials, or arenas). As can be seen from the posts above, several people who are most excited for subclassing are strictly overland players, while the people most concerned about the system are endgamers and PvPers. In other words, you handily appease both groups. It's an answer to the zero-sum game of endgamers threatening to quit if the system goes live while casual players say they'll quit if it doesn't

I'd also echo tomofhyrule's comment that that would allow the barriers to entry to be lowered, making the system even friendlier to casual players.

My addition would simply be to implement an unscored "normal" difficulty Infinite Archive so that more casual players can try for its sets and rewards--it would have a lesser difficulty and have no leaderboard, but would (most likely) reward fewer Archival Fortunes. It would be accessed by setting your group difficulty to "normal" while the current Archive would be accessed by setting the difficulty to "veteran."

Logistically,

1. The game already distinguishes between scored and nonscored content--you can't summon an armory assistant in scored content; and
2. The game is already capable of refunding skill points spent on a skill line if you lose it (see Vampire or Werewolf) and storing and replacing your slotted skills (like with transformation mechanics like in Frostvault).

I've seen some comments by more casual players essentially hoping that subclassing will grant them the power to do the content they couldn't before. Flatly, I'll say: that's completely false. You're more than capable of doing that content already in most cases, you just either don't know how to get started or aren't willing to do what's necessary. And a raid lead will not let you into a progression group unless you follow their instructions--you still won't be able to take any build to any content, you'll be expected to take the Arcromancerplar DPS or the Warplarblade healer or the Sorcroknight tank or whatever Skinnycheek's Monster the community comes up with.

But if you want to do something thematic to the character, hey, more power to you. Just remember that "I want to play the game the way I want to play" is a right other people have, too.

ADarklore wrote: »

Estin wrote: »

This idea definitely needs to be redone. It's current state doesn't seem like it was properly thought out. ZOS has stated more than once that the PTS isn't to test ideas and more to just fix bugs. It's already too late for them to make any substantial changes to this system, notably penalties on subclassed skills or separate balancing on them. There's just no way they can implement that and fix the numerous amount of bugs and OP combinations in just 2 months. Does ZOS not remember what happened with necro and GLS last year? How necro was stuck in limbo with multiple problems for 2 major patches? This update if it's pushed to live as is is going to affect everyone, not just necros, and the game can't afford to go 2 patches major patches to fix the problems subclassing is going to bring. Too much damage will be done and the game will likely not recover from it.

ZOS, please, listen to your community like you say you are doing. You have a saving grace for this in that it's not a paid system to sell the content pass. It's a free update that isn't tied to the season's story. This idea can definitely be put on hold until it's properly fleshed out.

Sorry, but you don't speak for 'the community'. You are ignoring all the positive posts and simply pushing the narrative that only the bad views are valid. Yes it's a bit messed up, but there is several weeks to get things ironed out, and time after for tweaks. Many, like myself, are excited for this change... have come back SOLELY for subclassing... and honestly, ZOS needs this to happen to bring players back and try to get new players on board.

The only positives I see are either A ) role players excited to make uniquely themed characters and B ) players who want to use over powered setups to exploit the game. The former can very well still be done if subclassing is appropriately implemented. The latter doesn't need to enter the game.

ADarklore wrote: »

Estin wrote: »

This idea definitely needs to be redone. It's current state doesn't seem like it was properly thought out. ZOS has stated more than once that the PTS isn't to test ideas and more to just fix bugs. It's already too late for them to make any substantial changes to this system, notably penalties on subclassed skills or separate balancing on them. There's just no way they can implement that and fix the numerous amount of bugs and OP combinations in just 2 months. Does ZOS not remember what happened with necro and GLS last year? How necro was stuck in limbo with multiple problems for 2 major patches? This update if it's pushed to live as is is going to affect everyone, not just necros, and the game can't afford to go 2 patches major patches to fix the problems subclassing is going to bring. Too much damage will be done and the game will likely not recover from it.

ZOS, please, listen to your community like you say you are doing. You have a saving grace for this in that it's not a paid system to sell the content pass. It's a free update that isn't tied to the season's story. This idea can definitely be put on hold until it's properly fleshed out.

Sorry, but you don't speak for 'the community'. You are ignoring all the positive posts and simply pushing the narrative that only the bad views are valid. Yes it's a bit messed up, but there is several weeks to get things ironed out, and time after for tweaks. Many, like myself, are excited for this change... have come back SOLELY for subclassing... and honestly, ZOS needs this to happen to bring players back and try to get new players on board.

I myself originally thought the idea of subclassing was interesting, but I am more than alarmed at ZOS' approach to it.

The idea of subclassing is supposed to introduce the freedom to play as you want, but if they're going to take a sledgehammer to the original classes, then I don't think that's giving us freedom at all.

People here have been saying that they don't want to be forced to subclass, but it doesn't look like ZOS was listening.

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

Red_Feather wrote: »

The game is so old it's time to take chances and have fun.

Game’s so old time to shut down you say?

They can still fix it if they implement limits and diminishing returns on subclassed skills to keep pure class skills relevant. 30-50% increased cost, 20-30% decreased power, keep passives, OR limit to a single skill line, OR remove passives. Or just.. something, hell ANYTHING to make this not a surefire class identity and pure class killer. I can’t imagine that’ll be remotely finalized in a PTS cycle, they should really take more time with it if they’re going to do it in the first place. I fear for the state of the game more now than even U35.

They’ll just balance the huge power creep by giving every new boss a whole 5 minute immunity phase where everyone sits there twiddling their thumbs while getting pummelled by dots and aoes waiting to do damage again. Cause that’s fun