notsojuicy wrote: »

So the Skill-Line Setup was always
Damage; Healing, Tanking

Now with subclassing if you can just take 3 Damage Skill Trees, OFC Subclassing will be stronger, and if you start nerfing individual skill-trees your automatically nerfing a Char which is only using his Class Skill-Trees, make sense doesn't it?

But that's the thing. It wasn't always that.

The DLC classes? Sure. They're set up with strict DPS/Heal/Tank lines.

But not the basegame Classes. They're set more around themes, so you don't really have a full line of one or the other.
Let's take DK as an example:

• the Ardent Flame line is the "DPS" line, right? But one of the passives is a snare (Tank), the chains are one of the few Class taunts (Tank), and the Cauterize morph of inferno is one of the DK's best targeted heals (Heal)
• Earthen Heart is clearly the "Tank" line. Except it has a passive offering extra damage. Ash Cloud and Cinder Storm are ground HoTs (Heal), and a major placeable ground DoT morph (DPS)
• So Draconic Power is... the Heal line? Really? The only two heals in that line are solo heals (Dragon Blood and Inhale). Otherwise that's the line that has the armor and CC skills (Tank)

As such, it's a lot harder for a DK to say "I can just give up my heal line!" when they don't really have a heal line; all of the healing stuff is spread across the other lines.

The ability to make a Glass Cannon by throwing out all of the support lines and only taking the DPS lines of other classes also doesn't account for the fact that a lot of those DPS lines are also a bit unbalanced themselves. Consider Arcanist: a spammable that heals on contact, and powers up their main attack, and debuffs the enemy, and a passive that increases crit damage, which then leads to a major AoE attack that does very high damage, and gives a free damage shield, and has a low cost. And that's even without subclassing! Add a Necro DPS line passive to that and you get a free 15% extra damage on both attacks!

The "but they have a glass cannon now!" argument really only works if we're talking about being solo. But if they're able to get the heals and shields from other group members, then literally what is the downside to just adding more damage for free? That's the problem.

Cominfordatoothbrush wrote: »

Multiclassing should come with some major inefficiencies like it does in for example DND. Yes there are some very powerful synergistic multiclasses there but they aren't necessarily all strong and no matter what youre missing out on high level perks/abilities. Idk if for ESO that means removing the passives, changing the numbers, whatever, but it's bad as is. It's extra bad in the sense that skills are being nerfed so that they're not super OP multiclassed, but that just punishes you for being one class hence not really fixing anything at all, so that is not the way imo

It hurts classes that have their damage skills spread across multiple lines and buffs necro and arcanist which have clearly defined damage and healing and tanking lines.

For example on dk if I keep ardent flame and want to subclass I have to give up eruption, talons, or both.

tomofhyrule wrote: »

notsojuicy wrote: »

So the Skill-Line Setup was always
Damage; Healing, Tanking

Now with subclassing if you can just take 3 Damage Skill Trees, OFC Subclassing will be stronger, and if you start nerfing individual skill-trees your automatically nerfing a Char which is only using his Class Skill-Trees, make sense doesn't it?

But that's the thing. It wasn't always that.

The DLC classes? Sure. They're set up with strict DPS/Heal/Tank lines.

But not the basegame Classes. They're set more around themes, so you don't really have a full line of one or the other.
Let's take DK as an example:

• the Ardent Flame line is the "DPS" line, right? But one of the passives is a snare (Tank), the chains are one of the few Class taunts (Tank), and the Cauterize morph of inferno is one of the DK's best targeted heals (Heal)
• Earthen Heart is clearly the "Tank" line. Except it has a passive offering extra damage. Ash Cloud and Cinder Storm are ground HoTs (Heal), and a major placeable ground DoT morph (DPS)
• So Draconic Power is... the Heal line? Really? The only two heals in that line are solo heals (Dragon Blood and Inhale). Otherwise that's the line that has the armor and CC skills (Tank)

As such, it's a lot harder for a DK to say "I can just give up my heal line!" when they don't really have a heal line; all of the healing stuff is spread across the other lines.

The ability to make a Glass Cannon by throwing out all of the support lines and only taking the DPS lines of other classes also doesn't account for the fact that a lot of those DPS lines are also a bit unbalanced themselves. Consider Arcanist: a spammable that heals on contact, and powers up their main attack, and debuffs the enemy, and a passive that increases crit damage, which then leads to a major AoE attack that does very high damage, and gives a free damage shield, and has a low cost. And that's even without subclassing! Add a Necro DPS line passive to that and you get a free 15% extra damage on both attacks!

The "but they have a glass cannon now!" argument really only works if we're talking about being solo. But if they're able to get the heals and shields from other group members, then literally what is the downside to just adding more damage for free? That's the problem.

Likewise, try to find the "tank" line in Templar, or the "healer" line in Sorc—and NB, being the fourth of our release classes, is probably similar, although I'm not familiar enough with the skill lines there to say for certain.

Darkness734 wrote: »

I think a solution would be to introduce passives that scale with the number of skill trees you have from your own class. So if youre a sorcerer and you have two sorc trees then the new passives offer bonuses accounting for the fact you have two of your own class type

I was thinking the same thing in a way like we have the armor passives. Maybe have certain bonuses for each class? Would give a reason to stay in the pure class line rather than sub class but could open up other ideas with different passives for other classes.

Cominfordatoothbrush wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

Cominfordatoothbrush wrote: »

Multiclassing should come with some major inefficiencies like it does in for example DND. Yes there are some very powerful synergistic multiclasses there but they aren't necessarily all strong and no matter what youre missing out on high level perks/abilities. Idk if for ESO that means removing the passives, changing the numbers, whatever, but it's bad as is. It's extra bad in the sense that skills are being nerfed so that they're not super OP multiclassed, but that just punishes you for being one class hence not really fixing anything at all, so that is not the way imo

It hurts classes that have their damage skills spread across multiple lines and buffs necro and arcanist which have clearly defined damage and healing and tanking lines.

For example on dk if I keep ardent flame and want to subclass I have to give up eruption, talons, or both.

Dk design is peak (I'm haeavily biased but still) and if every class was built like that multiclass probably wouldnt be a huge issue.

Also I agree on this. I switched from my warden to a dk and I honestly find it hard removing any one of my skill lines even with the proposed nerfs to some of the skills. They kind of jell well with one another. I don't even have weapon skills on my bars but a full dk build. If I get rid of one in favor of another I honestly feel like I would lose out on something in the process.