End of classes?

Xarc · April 14

With subclasses, character possibilities are multiplied.
They're still limited, but the number of possible combinations increases to approximately 5,000.

Isn't ZOS ultimately planning to do away with classes?
Perhaps this is just a step, and the ultimate goal... would be to create a class-neutral character and select skill trees from the very beginning.

Is this the end of an old generation of MMOs where the player plays a class (like WoW, Black Desert Online, SWTOR, etc.) that is moving more toward a system like NewWorld?
Is TESO beginning its transition to a new generation of MMOs?
This is just a guess, but it is a legitimate question.

Tariq9898 · April 14

Possibly.

I feel like ZOS is trying to create an “MMO Elder Scrolls 6” if you will. If this is the case, I feel ESO should’ve been classless from the start lol.

That said, I do hope they start adding more skill colors for every class for roleplaying purposes. Like pairing Red Necro with Nightblade to create a death assassin. Etc.

Surgee · April 14

It really does feel that way, and I hate it.

I started playing ESO almost 10 years ago because I loved the classic group setup: tank, healer, and DPS. I was the tank, my wife was the healer, and our friend played DPS. We each had our own role, and the game felt like a real team effort. Even the regular world content was challenging enough that we needed each other.

But over time, the game got so easy that it didn’t make sense to play as a healer or tank anymore. We all had to switch to DPS just stay relevant.

That’s when things started to fall apart. Making the game easier led to the death of roles. Tanks and healers weren’t really needed anymore, so fewer people played them. That made it harder to find a group. So the devs made content even easier, which made tanks and healers even less important. Eventually, most content could be done solo or just with DPS.

A lot of this was done to please solo players who wanted to do everything by themselves, even in a multiplayer game. And now with classes being blended together, it's going to get even easier. The more freedom people have to mix and match, the more powerful solo builds become.

The devs say they want people to be creative with builds and play how they want, but let’s be real: most people will just copy the strongest build from YouTube.

I miss the days when classes actually mattered, and when ESO felt like a real multiplayer experience. Now, it’s more like a solo game with social areas to show off crown store cosmetics.

I think the grand plan is to make ESO this big sandbox where you can be whatever you want to be, and do whatever you want to do, alone. While there are good things about it, it also makes it kind of soulless and without identity. More options is not always better.

QB1 · April 14

I think the idea of moving toward a classless system is exciting and long overdue, especially for a franchise like Elder Scrolls, which has always emphasized freedom and customization in its single-player games.

The Elder Scrolls universe has always been about building your own character, not picking from a pre-made archetype. A classless system (or one that allows you to mix skill trees freely) could finally align ESO more closely with that core identity. It would open the door to more creative, personal builds, encourage experimentation, and give players more control over how they engage with the game.

ADarklore · April 14

Tariq9898 wrote: »

Possibly.

I feel like ZOS is trying to create an “MMO Elder Scrolls 6” if you will. If this is the case, I feel ESO should’ve been classless from the start lol.

That said, I do hope they start adding more skill colors for every class for roleplaying purposes. Like pairing Red Necro with Nightblade to create a death assassin. Etc.

Rich said a few years ago that initially they planned to make ESO a true MMO, but after a year they realized that the majority didn't want that, they wanted 'Skyrim with friends' and so that's when they created One Tamriel. So no, ESO hasn't been considered by ZOS to be a true MMO for many years- it's only certain players clinging to this concept and then being upset when the game doesn't match their concept.

Classes won't go away because it would be lost revenue. Subclassing will still prompt many players to continue alts, because there are limitations to subclassing- such as having to keep one class skill line from your base class and not being able to have two of another. So players expecting to be a Warden but then have two Arcanist skill lines- can't do that. You can have two Warden skill lines, but cannot have two of the same class subclassed.

Xarc · April 14

I'd like to invite Matt Firor to participate in this discussion, but oh well.
We'll do without ^^

QB1 wrote: »

I think the idea of moving toward a classless system is exciting and long overdue, especially for a franchise like Elder Scrolls, which has always emphasized freedom and customization in its single-player games.

The Elder Scrolls universe has always been about building your own character, not picking from a pre-made archetype. A classless system (or one that allows you to mix skill trees freely) could finally align ESO more closely with that core identity. It would open the door to more creative, personal builds, encourage experimentation, and give players more control over how they engage with the game.

Of course, but there have always been differences between an MMO and a single-player game, since in one of the two there is a community of players who must be occupied with group activities.
TESO comes from a long generation of MMOs that used the class system to also allow the player to restart the game, in a different way, with a new character, a new class to try, etc.
In a way, it's marketing.

Now, as you said, the spirit of TES is to build your character the way the player wants, according to their style of play.
That's why, from the beginning, many fans criticized the existence of classes in ESO (and still do today).
Perhaps now, developers have realized that a player can very easily restart a game endlessly without needing class mechanics. Perhaps that's a thing of the past.
Everyone has seen this again today with Skyrim TESV, which is still being played, where you can create your own character (even if no matter your initial build idea, in Skyrim you end up making an archer).

tomofhyrule · April 14

They've said before that the Class was the one immutable part of a character's identity and was buried so deep in the spaghetti code that that couldn't ever be changed. That's essentially why we got Subclassing instead of a Class Change token, and even the direct said that Subclassing was the answer to the requests for a Class Change.

While I hope that the effects of Subclassing won't lead to "lol nerf everything so that a pure class is in the trash can and only hybrids are viable for anything beyond overland" (but I do fear that will happen because that what the stam/mag hybridization did), the goal is to give us the freedom to swap *most* of the Class stuff around at will.

What I do hope this leads to though is the freedom to bring in more Classes. A lot of the argument for getting new Classes was always "but then I need to level a brand new character!" (which I enjoy, but I know many people don't). A new Class added after Subclassing means that the masochists like me (who have an entire backstory just waiting to be used) can make a new character as this hypothetical 8th class, whereas people who don't want to level a new character (or have a full roster) can just pop on the new skill lines on existing characters and not have to go through the Great Skyshard Hunt and spend 6 months training their horse.

I'm dying to finally get an Artificer in. Also, if that had lines like summoning Dwemer Automata, that could mesh well with Sorc pet or shock damage passives, or a Traps line could get interactions with DoT or AoE passives from other Classes. I know that Arcanist's release was probably yhe most fun I've had in the game for a while because of exploring the new skills, and I'd love to do that again... and adding a new class for people who want to experience the world for the first time in a new way while also allowing established characters to pick and choose would be an incredible strength of the Subclassing system.

As a bit of a pessimist though, all I can see is the fear that 'pure'-Class builds will be nerfed into the ground because of OP Subclass combos, and the fact that Classes need to be balanced now against 21 individual lines instead of against 7 other Classes makes me fear that they may never give us a new Class again. I hope that those points are just me being a pessimist though and that we will see both pure and mixed classes be equally viable, and I really hope that new Classes are still on the horizon (and soon, since I've already got over 30 of each riding scroll in storage just waiting for my next character to exist)

gc0018 · April 16

Then they need a completely rework of game system rather than "let just mix all the drugs together and see how the patient will be like."

Wereswan · April 16

Xarc wrote: »

With subclasses, character possibilities are multiplied.
They're still limited, but the number of possible combinations increases to approximately 5,000.

Isn't ZOS ultimately planning to do away with classes?
Perhaps this is just a step, and the ultimate goal... would be to create a class-neutral character and select skill trees from the very beginning.

Is this the end of an old generation of MMOs where the player plays a class (like WoW, Black Desert Online, SWTOR, etc.) that is moving more toward a system like NewWorld?
Is TESO beginning its transition to a new generation of MMOs?
This is just a guess, but it is a legitimate question.

6,038 combinations, to be exact.

knifeinthedark · April 16

QB1 wrote: »

I think the idea of moving toward a classless system is exciting and long overdue, especially for a franchise like Elder Scrolls, which has always emphasized freedom and customization in its single-player games.

The Elder Scrolls universe has always been about building your own character, not picking from a pre-made archetype. A classless system (or one that allows you to mix skill trees freely) could finally align ESO more closely with that core identity. It would open the door to more creative, personal builds, encourage experimentation, and give players more control over how they engage with the game.

Vehemently disagree. While I loved Oblivion (over 2k hours) and Skyrim I have to point out that RP was purely a matter of grind and mindset. TES games have never been "true" RPGs, you could advance any skill line whenever you wanted, and in a world where you're a master of everything you are identified by nothing. As much as I love those games, whether or not I RP'd a wizard or a warrior had everything to do with what I was wearing and what skills I felt like using, I didn't have to spec into anything in particular, it was all available. This is the reason why healers started disappearing in dungeons, things were made too easy because questers wanted to do everything solo and so the *role* of the healer was basically completely supplanted.

Fallout for example is way more an RPG than TES games for the simple reason you have a limited number of perks to work with that'll define how you approach the game and therefore define *who* your character is. In TES you can be good at anything and everything at any given time and therefore you are not anything in particular, it was all about your imagination of your character moment to moment.

Add to that people like myself that have worked tirelessly to create werewolf 2h axe orcs that have sable man beast skin and beast personality or sons of deadric prince drunken assassins (love my nb) being made completely irrelevant because subclassing leads to our pure classes being gutted and you destroy my RP experience as well. They need to make purist builds viable or people like me are just gonna quit, I put a lot of time into it and this change is basically dissing me to my face and telling me to like it. @ZOS_RichLambert

Tariq9898 · April 16

knifeinthedark wrote: »

QB1 wrote: »

subclassing leads to our pure classes being gutted and you destroy my RP experience as well. They need to make purist builds viable or people like me are just gonna quit, I put a lot of time into it and this change is basically dissing me to my face and telling me to like it. @ZOS_RichLambert

This.

I’ve been saying it over and over. Pure builds need to perform on par as subclass builds. This is how ZOS allows everyone to truly play how they want. If I want to purely be a flaming knight in the hardest of trifectas, I should have the option for that without getting kicked. Forcing people to subclass just to keep up is more limiting.

So far I haven’t seen anyone counter this.

Soarora · April 16

A pure classless system would be better than this. Something more like the skill trees in Blades and Skyrim with a vertical progression where the base skills are worse but as you go up the tree you get access to stronger passives and skills but the points you can put in are limited (so you can't just have all the passives and the strongest skills available). That way, pure class will be stronger than multiclassing, but there's more options as to what a pure class is. A cyromancer, a pyromancer, a summoner, a necromancer, an illusionist... perhaps with the bonus that certain lines can end up synergizing together (such as if you go into cyromancy, pyromancy, and electromancy you unlock the elementalist subclass. this would also keep the original classes in such a way that if you go all into, say, the templar lines you'll be a templar subclass).

knifeinthedark · April 16

QB1 wrote: »

The Elder Scrolls universe has always been about building your own character, not picking from a pre-made archetype. A classless system (or one that allows you to mix skill trees freely) could finally align ESO more closely with that core identity. It would open the door to more creative, personal builds, encourage experimentation, and give players more control over how they engage with the game.

To address this specifically I'll say that yes, in single player that has been the case, but ESO is an online game, a game with team based content. ESO is not a single player game and should not be treated as one. If you want Skyrim online there are mods for that, or if you want to conquer difficult challenges alone there is also content for that in ESO. Between class abilities and weapon/armor skill lines you could already have the freedom you're talking about. I remember when people on the forums were excited about hybridization, I silently watched as solo players celebrated saying they would have more freedom and there would be more unique, viable builds, completely ignorant to the fact it would kill dps build diversity in group content and what do you know, it came to pass.

You could be a magicka based melee DW dps prior to this but it was specific and tailored. There were quite a few sets that could be used effectively. Since hybridization diversity has almost gone extinct, every top tier build is DW on front bar now, whether you're stam or mag, and we're down to just a few sets that are considered competitive. Subclassing is going to exacerbate the problem, as content gets scaled up to accommodate for the power increase, pure classes will be left in the dust in favor of combining the strongest skill lines and passives.

Toanis · April 16

Xarc wrote: »

Is this the end of an old generation of MMOs where the player plays a class (like WoW, Black Desert Online, SWTOR, etc.) that is moving more toward a system like NewWorld?
Is TESO beginning its transition to a new generation of MMOs?

Meridian59 (1996), Ultima Online (1997), Asheron's Call (1999), Runescape (2001), Secret World (2012), Albion (2017)

Just because everyone wanted to be the WoW killer for a while, doesn't mean that classless MMOs are anything new, quite on the contrary. The current trend to more MMOs with classless systems is more of a back to the roots, the two systems always coexisted. (along with multiclassing, see DDO or class switching, see FFXIV)

But no, the class trees have a lot of synergy within the class, and even if you slot no abilities, losing a tree's passive may hurt you more than what you'll get from subclassing. Most of the combinations will be gimmicky at best, and a few will be very effective in a certain niche.

Ragnarok0130 · April 16

ADarklore wrote: »

Tariq9898 wrote: »

Possibly.

I feel like ZOS is trying to create an “MMO Elder Scrolls 6” if you will. If this is the case, I feel ESO should’ve been classless from the start lol.

That said, I do hope they start adding more skill colors for every class for roleplaying purposes. Like pairing Red Necro with Nightblade to create a death assassin. Etc.

Rich said a few years ago that initially they planned to make ESO a true MMO, but after a year they realized that the majority didn't want that, they wanted 'Skyrim with friends' and so that's when they created One Tamriel. So no, ESO hasn't been considered by ZOS to be a true MMO for many years- it's only certain players clinging to this concept and then being upset when the game doesn't match their concept.

You keep posting this, can you link me the article or video where Rich stated this as I’ve never heard any of the devs say this. Not trying to be combative but would love to hear it in the original and full context.

SilverBride · April 16

I plan to keep my characters just as they are now.

Tazzy · April 16

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Tariq9898 wrote: »

Possibly.

I feel like ZOS is trying to create an “MMO Elder Scrolls 6” if you will. If this is the case, I feel ESO should’ve been classless from the start lol.

That said, I do hope they start adding more skill colors for every class for roleplaying purposes. Like pairing Red Necro with Nightblade to create a death assassin. Etc.

Rich said a few years ago that initially they planned to make ESO a true MMO, but after a year they realized that the majority didn't want that, they wanted 'Skyrim with friends' and so that's when they created One Tamriel. So no, ESO hasn't been considered by ZOS to be a true MMO for many years- it's only certain players clinging to this concept and then being upset when the game doesn't match their concept.

You keep posting this, can you link me the article or video where Rich stated this as I’ve never heard any of the devs say this. Not trying to be combative but would love to hear it in the original and full context.

I think this article is meant:
https://www.gameinformer.com/2021/05/21/elder-scrolls-online-creative-director-reflects-back-on-rough-launch-we-didnt-have-an?mobile-app=true&theme=falseCampfire

Twohothardware · April 16

We’ve been replacing our classes skills with alternatives for a long time from the weapon skill lines, fighters guild, mages guild, Psijic skill line, and most recently Scribing skills.

Up until more recently classes like StamSorc were almost entirely using the skills from the weapon skill lines instead of Sorcerer because they were better and when ESO first launched stamina versions of many class skills didn’t exist.

Subclassing is no different except that it’s more freedom to build and optimize your character however you want.

If you choose to play with a “pure class” and keep a bunch of skill lines full of healing and tanking skills that are useless for DPS that’s totally fine, just don’t expect to deal the exact same DPS as someone that chooses all DPS skill lines for their character.

Ragnarok0130 · April 16

Tazzy wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Tariq9898 wrote: »

Possibly.

I feel like ZOS is trying to create an “MMO Elder Scrolls 6” if you will. If this is the case, I feel ESO should’ve been classless from the start lol.

That said, I do hope they start adding more skill colors for every class for roleplaying purposes. Like pairing Red Necro with Nightblade to create a death assassin. Etc.

Rich said a few years ago that initially they planned to make ESO a true MMO, but after a year they realized that the majority didn't want that, they wanted 'Skyrim with friends' and so that's when they created One Tamriel. So no, ESO hasn't been considered by ZOS to be a true MMO for many years- it's only certain players clinging to this concept and then being upset when the game doesn't match their concept.

You keep posting this, can you link me the article or video where Rich stated this as I’ve never heard any of the devs say this. Not trying to be combative but would love to hear it in the original and full context.

I think this article is meant:
https://www.gameinformer.com/2021/05/21/elder-scrolls-online-creative-director-reflects-back-on-rough-launch-we-didnt-have-an?mobile-app=true&theme=falseCampfire

I appreciate the link but I don’t think it says what the poster proposed.

zaria · April 16

ADarklore wrote: »

Tariq9898 wrote: »

Possibly.

I feel like ZOS is trying to create an “MMO Elder Scrolls 6” if you will. If this is the case, I feel ESO should’ve been classless from the start lol.

That said, I do hope they start adding more skill colors for every class for roleplaying purposes. Like pairing Red Necro with Nightblade to create a death assassin. Etc.

Rich said a few years ago that initially they planned to make ESO a true MMO, but after a year they realized that the majority didn't want that, they wanted 'Skyrim with friends' and so that's when they created One Tamriel. So no, ESO hasn't been considered by ZOS to be a true MMO for many years- it's only certain players clinging to this concept and then being upset when the game doesn't match their concept.

Classes won't go away because it would be lost revenue. Subclassing will still prompt many players to continue alts, because there are limitations to subclassing- such as having to keep one class skill line from your base class and not being able to have two of another. So players expecting to be a Warden but then have two Arcanist skill lines- can't do that. You can have two Warden skill lines, but cannot have two of the same class subclassed.

Agree, now I don't agree on the true MMO part. Yes the most defining MMO like Everquest and WOW has classes other like Runescape has not.
Yes it was obvious then you reached the endgame it would be more like WOW where you leveled up in an new zone over and over mostly doing dungeons, raids or pvp, but in ESO you had Craglorn who was grouped overland content.
But this did not matched the players wants and all the sets they made would be wasted.
So we got One Tamriel, I say game has pretty much random walked from here by selecting that works best as in keeping the money flowing.
Who is the second best approach who is being correct all the time.
That one require special Khajiit alchemy, this one will not tell

knifeinthedark · April 17

Twohothardware wrote: »

We’ve been replacing our classes skills with alternatives for a long time from the weapon skill lines, fighters guild, mages guild, Psijic skill line, and most recently Scribing skills.

Up until more recently classes like StamSorc were almost entirely using the skills from the weapon skill lines instead of Sorcerer because they were better and when ESO first launched stamina versions of many class skills didn’t exist.

Subclassing is no different except that it’s more freedom to build and optimize your character however you want.

If you choose to play with a “pure class” and keep a bunch of skill lines full of healing and tanking skills that are useless for DPS that’s totally fine, just don’t expect to deal the exact same DPS as someone that chooses all DPS skill lines for their character.

You don't seem to understand PvE very well. Your last paragraph doesn't make much sense. DPS characters were well balanced in their role, as tanks and healers have been as well. Balance has actually been pretty good so far overall. If you were to look at the skill bars for endgame DPS players you would notice that there really aren't "tanking/healing" skills being slotted other than necessities and even that is situational, if healer(s) are present you can be damned sure I'm only slotting DPS skills and skills that passively increase my damage. I invite you to come look at my skill bars and tell me where exactly I deserve to be punished in terms of DPS simply because I want to be a sorc exclusively.

Your argument makes no sense at all. People deserve to be punished for wanting to play a specific class fully simply because they don't want overpowered combinations of skills and passives that were never even supposed to be used in conjunction on a single toon in the first place?

The skill lines as they are make sense, I can be at just enough health to be survivable if I'm attentive and still hit 100k+ in a parse. Scaling up the game to compensate for this incredible increase in effectiveness will make pure classes go extinct. In a "play how you want" game I'm not to be allowed to play how I want?

As another wise poster said, you should be able to be a pure fire based DPS at endgame if you want and not be obsolete, I should be able to be a pure NB assassin and not be obsolete.

Edit: To your points about weapon and guild skill lines as well as your comment about "don’t expect to deal the exact same DPS as someone that chooses all DPS skill lines for their character" I don't see how that makes sense either given, and I'm fairly certain of this, the overwhelming majority of class skill lines (like the nightblade shadow) don't have exclusively all dps skills/passives, there are non dps skills and passives in those trees, as there are also supplemental skills that tie in well with the rest of the class creating a pretty complete kit unique to that classes Identity.

ragnarok6644b14_ESO · April 17

knifeinthedark wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

We’ve been replacing our classes skills with alternatives for a long time from the weapon skill lines, fighters guild, mages guild, Psijic skill line, and most recently Scribing skills.

Up until more recently classes like StamSorc were almost entirely using the skills from the weapon skill lines instead of Sorcerer because they were better and when ESO first launched stamina versions of many class skills didn’t exist.

Subclassing is no different except that it’s more freedom to build and optimize your character however you want.

If you choose to play with a “pure class” and keep a bunch of skill lines full of healing and tanking skills that are useless for DPS that’s totally fine, just don’t expect to deal the exact same DPS as someone that chooses all DPS skill lines for their character.

You don't seem to understand PvE very well. Your last paragraph doesn't make much sense. DPS characters were well balanced in their role, as tanks and healers have been as well. Balance has actually been pretty good so far overall. If you were to look at the skill bars for endgame DPS players you would notice that there really aren't "tanking/healing" skills being slotted other than necessities and even that is situational, if healer(s) are present you can be damned sure I'm only slotting DPS skills and skills that passively increase my damage. I invite you to come look at my skill bars and tell me where exactly I deserve to be punished in terms of DPS simply because I want to be a sorc exclusively.

Your argument makes no sense at all. People deserve to be punished for wanting to play a specific class fully simply because they don't want overpowered combinations of skills and passives that were never even supposed to be used in conjunction on a single toon in the first place?

The skill lines as they are make sense, I can be at just enough health to be survivable if I'm attentive and still hit 100k+ in a parse. Scaling up the game to compensate for this incredible increase in effectiveness will make pure classes go extinct. In a "play how you want" game I'm not to be allowed to play how I want?

As another wise poster said, you should be able to be a pure fire based DPS at endgame if you want and not be obsolete, I should be able to be a pure NB assassin and not be obsolete.

Edit: To your points about weapon and guild skill lines as well as your comment about "don’t expect to deal the exact same DPS as someone that chooses all DPS skill lines for their character" I don't see how that makes sense either given, and I'm fairly certain of this, the overwhelming majority of class skill lines (like the nightblade shadow) don't have exclusively all dps skills/passives, there are non dps skills and passives in those trees, as there are also supplemental skills that tie in well with the rest of the class creating a pretty complete kit unique to that classes Identity.

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Theme builds (like the ones I run) have been excluded from endgame for years. I still do fine in content and even get compliments after a good hard mode dungeon or the like, when everything really meshes, but it's simply the truth that you won't see me getting into endgame trifecta pushing.

And I am okay with that, because I have more fun making my theme build work than I do chasing the endgame.

But at some point, chasing the endgame and chasing theme are incompatible, and you have to pick a street. That was true before subclassing and will be true whether subclassing exists or not.

Anumaril · April 17

I couldn't be happier about this change; I've been advocating for a classless system in ESO for a long time now. It always struck me as odd that a defining feature of TES games was being classless: you can do whatever you want whenever you want (and "classes" in the older titles were really just xp bonuses or damage buffs, never hard locks on what your character could actually access).

So having a hard class system in the online entry to the TES series seemed like a missed opportunity to innovate in the MMO genre. I guess it's better late than never, but I for one will be thrilled to get back into ESO once this update hits and we get harder overland content too. If my necromancer wants to learn some daedric summoning spells, he'll be able to (at the cost of one of my class skill lines, but still). If he wants to learn some storm magic, he will also be able to do that.

knifeinthedark · April 18

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

knifeinthedark wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

We’ve been replacing our classes skills with alternatives for a long time from the weapon skill lines, fighters guild, mages guild, Psijic skill line, and most recently Scribing skills.

Up until more recently classes like StamSorc were almost entirely using the skills from the weapon skill lines instead of Sorcerer because they were better and when ESO first launched stamina versions of many class skills didn’t exist.

Subclassing is no different except that it’s more freedom to build and optimize your character however you want.

If you choose to play with a “pure class” and keep a bunch of skill lines full of healing and tanking skills that are useless for DPS that’s totally fine, just don’t expect to deal the exact same DPS as someone that chooses all DPS skill lines for their character.

You don't seem to understand PvE very well. Your last paragraph doesn't make much sense. DPS characters were well balanced in their role, as tanks and healers have been as well. Balance has actually been pretty good so far overall. If you were to look at the skill bars for endgame DPS players you would notice that there really aren't "tanking/healing" skills being slotted other than necessities and even that is situational, if healer(s) are present you can be damned sure I'm only slotting DPS skills and skills that passively increase my damage. I invite you to come look at my skill bars and tell me where exactly I deserve to be punished in terms of DPS simply because I want to be a sorc exclusively.

Your argument makes no sense at all. People deserve to be punished for wanting to play a specific class fully simply because they don't want overpowered combinations of skills and passives that were never even supposed to be used in conjunction on a single toon in the first place?

The skill lines as they are make sense, I can be at just enough health to be survivable if I'm attentive and still hit 100k+ in a parse. Scaling up the game to compensate for this incredible increase in effectiveness will make pure classes go extinct. In a "play how you want" game I'm not to be allowed to play how I want?

As another wise poster said, you should be able to be a pure fire based DPS at endgame if you want and not be obsolete, I should be able to be a pure NB assassin and not be obsolete.

Edit: To your points about weapon and guild skill lines as well as your comment about "don’t expect to deal the exact same DPS as someone that chooses all DPS skill lines for their character" I don't see how that makes sense either given, and I'm fairly certain of this, the overwhelming majority of class skill lines (like the nightblade shadow) don't have exclusively all dps skills/passives, there are non dps skills and passives in those trees, as there are also supplemental skills that tie in well with the rest of the class creating a pretty complete kit unique to that classes Identity.

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Theme builds (like the ones I run) have been excluded from endgame for years. I still do fine in content and even get compliments after a good hard mode dungeon or the like, when everything really meshes, but it's simply the truth that you won't see me getting into endgame trifecta pushing.

And I am okay with that, because I have more fun making my theme build work than I do chasing the endgame.

But at some point, chasing the endgame and chasing theme are incompatible, and you have to pick a street. That was true before subclassing and will be true whether subclassing exists or not.

Unfortunately that's not true, as I have in fact been having my cake and eating it too for nearly 8 years. I have themed builds that I have taken into trifecta content and cleared it. Themed builds capable of tanking the latest hard mode bosses and dps builds capable of hitting 115-120k if no light attacks are missed.

I have used a themed build on a character I still have to reach the top 100 all time leaderboards in vMA before the release of Vvardenfell.

Chasing endgame and having a character theme are most certainly not incompatible, I'm literally living proof of it. Hop into a discord with me and I can share some receipts with you if you'd like. This update will however smash endgame diversity, mark my words everyone and their cousin will be using arc beam on dps.

Edit: I'll even bet that with solid execution your themed build is probably more powerful than you think.

knifeinthedark · April 18

Anumaril wrote: »

I couldn't be happier about this change; I've been advocating for a classless system in ESO for a long time now. It always struck me as odd that a defining feature of TES games was being classless: you can do whatever you want whenever you want (and "classes" in the older titles were really just xp bonuses or damage buffs, never hard locks on what your character could actually access).

So having a hard class system in the online entry to the TES series seemed like a missed opportunity to innovate in the MMO genre. I guess it's better late than never, but I for one will be thrilled to get back into ESO once this update hits and we get harder overland content too. If my necromancer wants to learn some daedric summoning spells, he'll be able to (at the cost of one of my class skill lines, but still). If he wants to learn some storm magic, he will also be able to do that.

It wouldn't really be innovative, there are other MMRORPG games before this that have had a classless system...

I'm not against you having the choice to have your necro learn storm calling, rather I'm advocating that class specific kits paired with guild/weapon skills that fit with the classes Identity also be a viable choice as they have been for years now. I want my nightblade to be able to be a stealthy assassin and thief that can still use concealed blade and debilitate as primary dps skills without being gutted because comboing certain class skills and especially passives will raise the power ceiling.

Also this isn't a classless system, it's a mixed class system. Again, this isn't a single player game, I liked having access to destruction and mysticism and everything else at once in Oblivion of course, but I also recognize my Oblivion character wasn't a tank or a dps or a healer, he was all three. Again, I'm advocating for people that want to be just a sorcerer won't be punished simply because they don't want to mix and match.

Tariq9898 · April 18

It hasn’t even been a week since the pts and people are running Grave Lord, Herald of the Tome and Assassination for DPS builds. Everyone’s gonna run that exact same setup.

Wereswan · April 18

Tariq9898 wrote: »

It hasn’t even been a week since the pts and people are running Grave Lord, Herald of the Tome and Assassination for DPS builds. Everyone’s gonna run that exact same setup.

Play as you want.™

ArchMikem · April 18

Aren't we only going to be allowed to subclass one skill line? That means we're still 2/3rds the Class we chose at creation.

I'm not understanding the doom and gloom from a semi serious/casual perspective. I have my DD's, i have my Tank, and I have my Healer. They'll stay that way even with mingling class skills, and if players REALLY cared about this being a detriment, then I'd expect them to refuse to subclass on principle.

But we all know they'll do it anyway.

Desiato · April 18

ArchMikem wrote: »

Aren't we only going to be allowed to subclass one skill line? That means we're still 2/3rds the Class we chose at creation.

Characters will be able to use two subclass skill lines. For example an arcmancerblade.

ArchMikem · April 18

Desiato wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

Aren't we only going to be allowed to subclass one skill line? That means we're still 2/3rds the Class we chose at creation.

Characters will be able to use two subclass skill lines. For example an arcmancerblade.

I took a gander in the PTS sub and realized that later. I think that's actually too much, they should limit it to just one.

GloatingSwine · April 18

Xarc wrote: »

They're still limited, but the number of possible combinations increases to approximately 5,000.

5000 possible combinations, 3 viable ones.