DOA Skill Lines with Subclassing

Zallion · April 13

This is entirely from a PvP perspective.

With subclassing coming out, I’m excited for all the neat different builds that are possible but I’m very worried about how things will balance out. Since class identity is more or less going away with subclassing, it raises a lot of concerns about the current state of many classes and abilities, and in some cases entire skill lines. We know this community. We’re going to narrow this down to the best 2-3 setups in about 2 weeks on the pts and the meta will be very well defined instead of separated by classes. There’s so many skills going to get left in the absolute dust that I think need serious addressing for this to really work to its full potential. If serious balance changes are made this could be a very fun idea to work with, but basing off of how the current state of balancing is in this game many skills will become almost entirely obsolete even more than they already are. We need some serious buffs to Templar, necro, and arcanist offensive skills particularly unless we want to play Elder Sorcdenblades Online for the foreseeable future. I was thinking about detailing a list of skills, but in general the offensive lines from those three classes need work, particularly their spammables. Burst abilities, on arcanist’s tdread made competitive, blastbones made reliable. Bringing back old jabs alone would repopulate this game /s. Anyway, there’s a lot of concern and worry in the air about how this will pan out. If we can see some promising changes it will add some nice variety to theorycrafting. Or maybe I’m in a tizzy for no reason because vengeance is the future, who knows.

Necrotech_Master · April 14

depending on how its implemented, it could get really bad for sure, and not even like the offensive "meta" that 80% of the players will run

im more concerned about how the tank meta for pvp will change, its already extremely off putting for most of pvp when it takes an avg of 4-12+ players to even kill 1 person at times (thats not even a block tank), and if every class then has access to say hardened ward + polar wind, everyone is just gonna max stack on max health and be even more unkillable

Udrath · April 14

I think a lot of builds people have planned are not going to function as they imagined, and then default to tank/stall/wait/can’t kill without200 ultimate/40k hp 15k magicka and stamina build version2.0.

ForumBully · April 14

Udrath wrote: »

I think a lot of builds people have planned are not going to function as they imagined, and then default to tank/stall/wait/can’t kill without200 ultimate/40k hp 15k magicka and stamina build version2.0.

People are very focused on the upside of what they can gain, and I agree there will be some downsides with what they trade away.

ketsparrowhawk · April 14

Udrath wrote: »

I think a lot of builds people have planned are not going to function as they imagined, and then default to tank/stall/wait/can’t kill without200 ultimate/40k hp 15k magicka and stamina build version2.0.

Been saying this same thing on our discord. I have a feeling that if you mostly play SOLO PvP then a pure class setup will still be one of the better options for having a good balance of defense/sustain/damage. There will be some broken multiclassing combinations I'm sure but all of those options I've explored thus far come with a pretty severe sacrifice. In group play I think multiclassing will be the rule but solo I'm not so sure.

xylena_lazarow · April 14

All of these concerns and worries can already be said about the current meta.

...and nothing of value was lost...

katorga · April 14

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

Udrath wrote: »

I think a lot of builds people have planned are not going to function as they imagined, and then default to tank/stall/wait/can’t kill without200 ultimate/40k hp 15k magicka and stamina build version2.0.

Been saying this same thing on our discord. I have a feeling that if you mostly play SOLO PvP then a pure class setup will still be one of the better options for having a good balance of defense/sustain/damage. There will be some broken multiclassing combinations I'm sure but all of those options I've explored thus far come with a pretty severe sacrifice. In group play I think multiclassing will be the rule but solo I'm not so sure.

Wait to see what skills and passives are mega-nerfed because of sub classing. Then it may make a lot of sense to subclass.

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

depending on how its implemented, it could get really bad for sure, and not even like the offensive "meta" that 80% of the players will run

im more concerned about how the tank meta for pvp will change

Tank meta doesn't really matter. There is always a few running around with a crowd of uninformed players trying to kill them, but they are kind of pointless.

MincMincMinc · April 14

I can say that stamsorc for pvp is dead, no reason to not just play warden and drop green for stormcalling. We shall see what gets changed around though for passives.

ketsparrowhawk · April 14

MincMincMinc wrote: »

I can say that stamsorc for pvp is dead, no reason to not just play warden and drop green for stormcalling. We shall see what gets changed around though for passives.

Crazy. Stamsorc is my best performing toon in BGs.

Teeba_Shei · April 14

MincMincMinc wrote: »

I can say that stamsorc for pvp is dead, no reason to not just play warden and drop green for stormcalling. We shall see what gets changed around though for passives.

Then you lose 10% max health, which causes your healing to be worse from polar wind.

Joy_Division · April 14

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

I can say that stamsorc for pvp is dead, no reason to not just play warden and drop green for stormcalling. We shall see what gets changed around though for passives.

Crazy. Stamsorc is my best performing toon in BGs.

Just because you are good at a class does not mean the class is good.

James-Wayne · April 14

Perhaps we wait for patch notes before we speculate too far....

Tcholl · April 14

Everyone eager for the PTS patch notes! Less go! IoI

Tcholl · April 14

Just commenting on the vengeance part, it is not the future for the whole of PvP.

Most players I know believe it will be an introduction campaign, maybe under 50, so the gameplay will be there and also may function as a permanent field for tests. It makes a lot of sense imo.

Gray Host is not going anywhere.

ketsparrowhawk · April 14

Joy_Division wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

I can say that stamsorc for pvp is dead, no reason to not just play warden and drop green for stormcalling. We shall see what gets changed around though for passives.

Crazy. Stamsorc is my best performing toon in BGs.

Just because you are good at a class does not mean the class is good.

If you say so. I play all classes and sorc isn't even in the top 3 of classes I play the most. What is stamsorc lacking? Easy access to tons of damage. Easy sustain. Excellent mobility-based defense (I suspect this is the sticking point for a lot of people.. stamsorc is quite squishy but that by no means makes them defenseless).

ketsparrowhawk · April 14

Joy_Division wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

I can say that stamsorc for pvp is dead, no reason to not just play warden and drop green for stormcalling. We shall see what gets changed around though for passives.

Crazy. Stamsorc is my best performing toon in BGs.

Just because you are good at a class does not mean the class is good.

And conversely, just because you're not good at a class doesn't mean the class is bad.

MincMincMinc · April 14

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

I can say that stamsorc for pvp is dead, no reason to not just play warden and drop green for stormcalling. We shall see what gets changed around though for passives.

Then you lose 10% max health, which causes your healing to be worse from polar wind.

3-4khp is easy to get with health being everywhere, definitely not the end of the world build wise. I would be more worried about losing the major mending.

On the other hand you get a *** ton of damage, critsurge heals, and streak.... easily beats having 3-4khp. Besides theres always the chance someone else in bgs or cyro heals you anyways and gives the 10%.

katorga · April 14

Now every class can be a ballgroup Warden - northern storm, spin to win, rushing agony.

Just combine 1-2 warden lines with your preferred class.

xylena_lazarow · April 14

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

And conversely, just because you're not good at a class doesn't mean the class is bad.

StamSorc is a jank class with a few overpowered tools that carry. It's got like half a working kit and is probably the hardest spec to properly build and pilot (aside from Necro but Necro isn't real). This all changes once you can replace Daedric Summoning with Ardent Flame, immediately solving every problem StamSorc currently suffers from.

ketsparrowhawk · April 14

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

And conversely, just because you're not good at a class doesn't mean the class is bad.

StamSorc is a jank class with a few overpowered tools that carry. It's got like half a working kit and is probably the hardest spec to properly build and pilot (aside from Necro but Necro isn't real). This all changes once you can replace Daedric Summoning with Ardent Flame, immediately solving every problem StamSorc currently suffers from.

strong disagree with you there but that is a topic for another thread.

Elsonso · April 14

My expectation is that in the PVP realm there will be ~12 meta skills in the game, and that is it. Most people will simply build around those.

Edit: This might be a good time for ZOS to create "PVP only" skills. They would only need between 12 and 24 of them, to simulate the illusion of choice.

xylena_lazarow · April 14

Elsonso wrote: »

My expectation is that in the PVP realm there will be ~12 meta skills in the game, and that is it. Most people will simply build around those.

That's what we have now except it's like 6 meta skills. Double the build variety? I'll take it.

CameraBeardThePirate · April 14

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

And conversely, just because you're not good at a class doesn't mean the class is bad.

aside from Necro but Necro isn't real

Joy_Division · April 14

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

I can say that stamsorc for pvp is dead, no reason to not just play warden and drop green for stormcalling. We shall see what gets changed around though for passives.

Crazy. Stamsorc is my best performing toon in BGs.

Just because you are good at a class does not mean the class is good.

If you say so. I play all classes and sorc isn't even in the top 3 of classes I play the most. What is stamsorc lacking? Easy access to tons of damage. Easy sustain. Excellent mobility-based defense (I suspect this is the sticking point for a lot of people.. stamsorc is quite squishy but that by no means makes them defenseless).

There isn't anything to say about it. Some people are better at certain classes than others because of preference, style, comfort, knowledge, etc. Back when I played regularly, I was much better on my Templar than a Warden, even though the latter was by far the more highly rated class. Similarly, stamblade has always been very good and I have always been very bad at playing it. Personal anecdotes are notoriously unreliable

Sorcs were originally designed by the devs to be a magicka based ranged class with pets. Stam sorc certainly is better today than say in 2016 with the introduction of things like bound armaments and the hybridization of the game, but the OP nature of hardened ward, ease in stacking maximum magicka, and range offense toolkit are still core elements of a class whose original design was quite different from something built to be a melee spec, such as stamblade with Incap and an actual good spammable in Concealed weapon. Highly skilled and knowledgeable players make it work because they are good players, using generic abilities, and one very strong skill (Streak) can overcome the inherent ranged/pets/magicka foundation of the class (for example, as you say, squishiness for ignoring the original devs intended defense of shielding)

But if stamsorcs want to tell the community and ZOS that their class is very strong, is lacking nothing, and needs no reform, then don't let me stop you or other stam sorcs from telling the devs the sorcerer PTS section can be a big blank because they certainly have more than enough work on their hands because other classes are in need of much reform

ketsparrowhawk · April 14

IDK what Sorc's original design philosophy has to do with the viability of StamSorc today. StamSorc is not my main and I do not presume to speak on behalf of StamSorcs everywhere. In my experience the spec is easy mode, all I'm saying. Streak is not the only skill that carries the class. Built-in minor expedition, dark deal, crystal weapon is one of the best spammables in the game plus StamSorc has various big burst combo options that allow them to hit-and-run... And if range is your thing bowsorc is absolutely lethal.

Indeed you are correct that player preference, playstyle etc are major factors. This is just about the only high-risk-high-reward playstyle left. Even ganking isn't risky anymore. Imo not every class/spec needs to be equally capable in every respect. It's a little bit ridiculous that MagSorcs can faceroll as well as a DK, but with the best ranged offense in the game and supreme mobility to go along with it. It's too much.

ketsparrowhawk · April 14

I mean if they wanna buff stamsorc I won't complain. Mine already piles up the bodies in BG's as it is. I won't complain about a bigger pile of bodies XD

xylena_lazarow · April 14

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

I mean if they wanna buff stamsorc I won't complain. Mine already piles up the bodies in BG's as it is. I won't complain about a bigger pile of bodies XD

The ranged hit-and-run strat is very effective in BGs, and you would be even stronger at it on MagSorc.

Melee brawler StamSorc gets 4 massive missing pieces from Ardent Flame: Major Sav, Major Breach, dot pressure to activate Surge, burst spammable, and no slots wasted on blank GCDs.

ketsparrowhawk · April 14

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

I mean if they wanna buff stamsorc I won't complain. Mine already piles up the bodies in BG's as it is. I won't complain about a bigger pile of bodies XD

The ranged hit-and-run strat is very effective in BGs, and you would be even stronger at it on MagSorc.

Melee brawler StamSorc gets 4 massive missing pieces from Ardent Flame: Major Sav, Major Breach, dot pressure to activate Surge, burst spammable, and no slots wasted on blank GCDs.

That is convenient but it doesn't come without sacrifice. Curse is superior to Molten Whip for combo possibilities. No +20% stam recovery. Higher ultimate cost. Buff coverage could also be achieved with scribing. Tbh dots don't make a lot of sense on a sorc to me, especially if Ward isn't an option so all the more reason you need to deal your damage quickly and get out. Burst is better and Daedric Summoning offers more in that regard. The passive heal from Crit Surge isn't significant enough to make major build decisions around, imo.

ketsparrowhawk · April 14

duplicate