A bit of feedback on some Class Sets

BasP · January 21

Considering that small adjustments were made to a few Class Sets this patch, I thought I’d take this opportunity to suggest some minor changes to other Class Sets as well. At the moment, at least for PvE DDs, Corpseburster seems to be the only set that is really good and that is a missed opportunity in my opinion. I personally love the concept of Class Sets, but if they’re weaker than regular sets, there’s little incentive to use them.

Dragonknight - Pyrebrand
While the set might have been overpowered on release, I believe it was over-nerfed. Restoring the base damage to its original value seems like a good idea to me. Without the ability to critically strike, this adjustment would likely be balanced (and I believe something like that would be worth testing at least). If such a change would make Pyrebrand too strong in PvP, you could perhaps consider reducing its damage when Battle Spirit is active.

Warden - Aerie's Cry
I actually use this set on my Warden’s Bow/Bow setup, and it’s already quite nice. However, I think increasing the buff to Animal Companion skills from 10% to somewhere between 12% and 15% could make the set more competitive compared to other options.

Sorcerer - Beacon of Oblivion
This set seems designed to enhance petless Sorcerers, and while the 15% Damage Done buff is excellent, the 2nd and 4th-piece bonuses feel underwhelming. In my opinion, replacing the Armor and Maximum Health bonuses with Critical Chance would make the set much more appealing for PvE.

(I don't have a lot of experience with the other Class Sets, but I'm sure some of them could use minor tweaks to increase their viability a bit.)

Tannus15 · January 22

Beacon of Oblivion is a good set if you don't factor in that no pet is significantly weaker than 2 pet.

This is the same problem with monolith of storms, which is a significantly worse set. The set bonuses themselves are good, but the cost of using them makes them weaker than they appear on paper.

Lightning splash and morphs is so weak than using it is a dps loss compared to hurricane or even passively slotting bound aegis. Since you need both hurricane and lightning splash to proc monolith of storms, you lose too much dps meeting the proc condition that the very average proc damage doesn't make up for it.

Likewise you lose so much dps by not using pets that the 15% damage buff from oblivion doesn't make up enough ground. Unlike monolith I do actually use oblivion in my trash setup, since pets are weak on trash anyway. This is more to do with the fact that i'm not using pets in this situation, rather than oblivion being good.

Side note, I did try using monolith for trash, but it was garbage in all situations. It's one of the worst sets in the game.

Turtle_Bot · January 22

Tannus15 wrote: »

Beacon of Oblivion is a good set if you don't factor in that no pet is significantly weaker than 2 pet.

This is the same problem with monolith of storms, which is a significantly worse set. The set bonuses themselves are good, but the cost of using them makes them weaker than they appear on paper.

Lightning splash and morphs is so weak than using it is a dps loss compared to hurricane or even passively slotting bound aegis. Since you need both hurricane and lightning splash to proc monolith of storms, you lose too much dps meeting the proc condition that the very average proc damage doesn't make up for it.

Likewise you lose so much dps by not using pets that the 15% damage buff from oblivion doesn't make up enough ground. Unlike monolith I do actually use oblivion in my trash setup, since pets are weak on trash anyway. This is more to do with the fact that i'm not using pets in this situation, rather than oblivion being good.

I'm still so confused with the design direction ZOS chose to go with the current sorc class sets, where, to this day, we still haven't heard anything from ZOS even acknowledging the issues with these sets let alone anything regarding actually fixing them.

It's clear from the names and skill lines the sets are based off/support:

Beacon of Oblivion was supposed to be a pet set to build upon the pet/summoning aspect of sorcs class kit, but it's best bonuses are for non-pet sorcs (that are still so far behind pet sorcs in PvE that the set doesn't even catch them up), while the bonuses for running the pets are just, why? It seems like non-pet sorc being a big topic at the time of release determined that the set needed to focus on non-pet builds instead of using the other 2 sets to buff non-pet builds and leave this set specifically for pets since its for the pet skill line.
Monolith of Storms was supposed to help non-pet sorcs by providing bonus cleave, but the insanely specific requirements to proc the set and the abilities that would proc the set are just so outdated in terms of design and power level (speaking for PvE here) that the set just fell flat and ended up completely unusable.

The fixes for these 2 sets don't seem all that difficult (design wise, not sure about coding, although I suspect many of the assets required to implement my proposed reworks already exist in the game), so I struggle to see why they haven't at least been discussed yet.

Make Beacon of Oblivion focus on pets, where it grants bonus damage to your pets while slotted and (instead of giving hardened ward the heal) the set heals you on cast of ward if your pets are not alive.
This would have kept ward balanced since no heal on the ability itself, but the set becomes an option to back bar to gain a heal on ward by essentially giving up a 5 piece set bonus. A strong combination for PvP, but at the cost of no rallying cry or wretched vitality or other typical back bar set.
Make Monolith of Storms function like the Sorcerer class script instead of it's strange summon/proc/??? design. Have it where dealing shock damage with a (non-pet) ability to a target procs AoE shock damage around that target. Could give it a secondary effect where non-shock damage class abilities have a chance to also proc concussed as well as their native status effects (like it infuses those spells with lightning).
This gives dead abilities like lightning splash and boundless and mediocre abilities like wrath a slight push to bring them closer to being more comparable to the pets (at least for PvE). It also reinforces the whole lightning mage that is one of sorcs main themes, since it's basically "electrifying" all of the sorcs class skills by allowing them to also proc the concussed status effect.

Side note, I did try using monolith for trash, but it was garbage in all situations. It's one of the worst sets in the game.

IMO, MoS is the worst set in the game. I tried it during multiple PTS cycles and even for a fun "theme" build, I found that original base-game sets like overwhelming surge are just miles ahead of monolith and they also fit better thematically with the whole lightning mage theme sorc has. MoS is just not worth running at all, even on a roleplay build, let alone a build that wants to complete actually difficult content...

BasP · January 22

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

It's clear from the names and skill lines the sets are based off/support:
Beacon of Oblivion was supposed to be a pet set to build upon the pet/summoning aspect of sorcs class kit, but it's best bonuses are for non-pet sorcs (that are still so far behind pet sorcs in PvE that the set doesn't even catch them up), while the bonuses for running the pets are just, why? It seems like non-pet sorc being a big topic at the time of release determined that the set needed to focus on non-pet builds instead of using the other 2 sets to buff non-pet builds and leave this set specifically for pets since its for the pet skill line.

If I remember correctly the pet Sorcerer's DPS on a Trial Dummy around that time far exceeded the DPS of other classes, which I figure is the reason that Beacon's bonus when having a permanent pet out is so... underwhelming.

I definitely agree that it would make more sense - and be better - if the Sorcerer's Daedric Summoning set would actually buff pet sorcs though. Sadly, I don't really see ZOS reworking the 5th piece any time soon, which is why I only suggested changing the bonus of the 2nd and 4th piece in my opening post.

ghitchco · January 23

Can we also make a change suggestion to the Atheric Lancer set for Templar. I love the idea of this set but please make it so you can "pick up" the spear and hold it for 5 sec. Trying to navigate to the small circle for PVP is fine but it would be nice to be able to then move out of that circle and use the ability from the set.

kojou · January 23

My opinion on these is that the sets that drop in IA (Infinite Archive) should be useful in Infinite Archive which means they should primarily increase stats associated with status effects at least as part of the effect.

Dragon Knight sets could buff the damage of "burning", Nightblade could buff "poisoned", Necromancer "diseased", etc.

This would make the sets useful for IA regardless of their usefulness outside of it.

I would also like to see buffs like "take 20% less damage from Marauders" or "increases the power of utility visions by x" and things that are in IA that would give more theory crafting possibilities without impacting the rest of ESO.

YandereGirlfriend · January 23

kojou wrote: »

My opinion on these is that the sets that drop in IA (Infinite Archive) should be useful in Infinite Archive which means they should primarily increase stats associated with status effects at least as part of the effect.

Dragon Knight sets could buff the damage of "burning", Nightblade could buff "poisoned", Necromancer "diseased", etc.

This would make the sets useful for IA regardless of their usefulness outside of it.

I would also like to see buffs like "take 20% less damage from Marauders" or "increases the power of utility visions by x" and things that are in IA that would give more theory crafting possibilities without impacting the rest of ESO.

Those are cool ideas for sets but, IMO, the status effect cheese in IA is more of a design flaw.

At the very least, there should be competing pathways to that sort of late-round damage, which currently... there simply are not.

Chilly-McFreeze · January 23

kojou wrote: »

My opinion on these is that the sets that drop in IA (Infinite Archive) should be useful in Infinite Archive which means they should primarily increase stats associated with status effects at least as part of the effect.

Dragon Knight sets could buff the damage of "burning", Nightblade could buff "poisoned", Necromancer "diseased", etc.

This would make the sets useful for IA regardless of their usefulness outside of it.

I would also like to see buffs like "take 20% less damage from Marauders" or "increases the power of utility visions by x" and things that are in IA that would give more theory crafting possibilities without impacting the rest of ESO.

Playing IA for sets to play IA easier doesn't seem to make much sense. IA should not be mostly self serving (outside of fun and leaderboards). Mostly all other content grants rewards that is somewhat useful in other conten types too.
Also giving every set the "same" bonus is kinda lame.
Or did you mean to add another line(s) of stats like in trial sets? Which I would be totally fine with.

kojou · January 23

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

kojou wrote: »

My opinion on these is that the sets that drop in IA (Infinite Archive) should be useful in Infinite Archive which means they should primarily increase stats associated with status effects at least as part of the effect.

Dragon Knight sets could buff the damage of "burning", Nightblade could buff "poisoned", Necromancer "diseased", etc.

This would make the sets useful for IA regardless of their usefulness outside of it.

I would also like to see buffs like "take 20% less damage from Marauders" or "increases the power of utility visions by x" and things that are in IA that would give more theory crafting possibilities without impacting the rest of ESO.

Playing IA for sets to play IA easier doesn't seem to make much sense. IA should not be mostly self serving (outside of fun and leaderboards). Mostly all other content grants rewards that is somewhat useful in other conten types too.
Also giving every set the "same" bonus is kinda lame.
Or did you mean to add another line(s) of stats like in trial sets? Which I would be totally fine with.

I meant add to the 5 Piece Bonus additional bonuses that only impact status effects and IA.

MincMincMinc · January 23

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

kojou wrote: »

My opinion on these is that the sets that drop in IA (Infinite Archive) should be useful in Infinite Archive which means they should primarily increase stats associated with status effects at least as part of the effect.

Dragon Knight sets could buff the damage of "burning", Nightblade could buff "poisoned", Necromancer "diseased", etc.

This would make the sets useful for IA regardless of their usefulness outside of it.

I would also like to see buffs like "take 20% less damage from Marauders" or "increases the power of utility visions by x" and things that are in IA that would give more theory crafting possibilities without impacting the rest of ESO.

Those are cool ideas for sets but, IMO, the status effect cheese in IA is more of a design flaw.

At the very least, there should be competing pathways to that sort of late-round damage, which currently... there simply are not.

Random but interesting idea you just gave me with "competing pathways", I think something like IA would be pretty fun as a long dungeon with various paths and boss rushes. Almost like a binding of isaac, FTL, or Risk of rain type structure.

kojou · January 23

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

kojou wrote: »

My opinion on these is that the sets that drop in IA (Infinite Archive) should be useful in Infinite Archive which means they should primarily increase stats associated with status effects at least as part of the effect.

Dragon Knight sets could buff the damage of "burning", Nightblade could buff "poisoned", Necromancer "diseased", etc.

This would make the sets useful for IA regardless of their usefulness outside of it.

I would also like to see buffs like "take 20% less damage from Marauders" or "increases the power of utility visions by x" and things that are in IA that would give more theory crafting possibilities without impacting the rest of ESO.

Those are cool ideas for sets but, IMO, the status effect cheese in IA is more of a design flaw.

At the very least, there should be competing pathways to that sort of late-round damage, which currently... there simply are not.

I agree with you as only having one path to high damage means more scrapped runs (currently we stop at Arc 3 if neither of us has Focused Efforts), but if they are going to leave this as the intended design (whether we agree it is good or not) they could at least go all in and give us reasons to use these class sets. Currently most of them have no use a lot better alternatives for other types of content.

BasP · January 23

kojou wrote: »

I agree with you as only having one path to high damage means more scrapped runs (currently we stop at Arc 3 if neither of us has Focused Efforts), but if they are going to leave this as the intended design (whether we agree it is good or not) they could at least go all in and give us reasons to use these class sets. Currently most of them have no use a lot better alternatives for other types of content.

Truth be told, I’d greatly prefer if the underperforming Class Sets were buffed to make them more viable in other types of content, rather than being relegated to something you only use in IA.

A while back, I thought it could be cool if Class Sets had a stat line similar to the Minor Slayer/Minor Aegis effects of Trial Sets though, somewhat similar to your suggestion. All I could come up with was "Minor Focus: Increases damage dealt with Status Effects by 30%", which was obviously inspired by the Focused Efforts vision. I suppose that something like that could give the Class Sets more identity. (That said, I'd personally still prefer specific buffs to each Class Set.)

JaxontheUnfortunate · January 23

Since we have 2 class sets for each class now, perhaps an additional bonus if a player wears both sets at the same time, just an idea no clue on what the bonus could be, perhaps something that specifically plays into the class thematically.

IncultaWolf · January 23

So they're buffing Soulcleaver a class set already popular in pve and pvp, and already strong but not touching Monolith of Storms, a weak and rarely used set in both pve and pvp...why?! It makes no sense. The sorcerer class sets need the most help out of anything.

YandereGirlfriend · January 23

IncultaWolf wrote: »

So they're buffing Soulcleaver a class set already popular in pve and pvp, and already strong but not touching Monolith of Storms, a weak and rarely used set in both pve and pvp...why?! It makes no sense. The sorcerer class sets need the most help out of anything.

Nightblades are the golden child of ESO.

Ezhh · January 23

BasP wrote: »

If I remember correctly the pet Sorcerer's DPS on a Trial Dummy around that time far exceeded the DPS of other classes, which I figure is the reason that Beacon's bonus when having a permanent pet out is so... underwhelming.

I definitely agree that it would make more sense - and be better - if the Sorcerer's Daedric Summoning set would actually buff pet sorcs though. Sadly, I don't really see ZOS reworking the 5th piece any time soon, which is why I only suggested changing the bonus of the 2nd and 4th piece in my opening post.

If this was the reasoning, it's a very sad thing that they didn't instead look at how often parse sorcs were/are wanted or even allowed in higher level prog groups, because the answer is basically never. Sorc dummy parses can be cheesed to an extent that other classes generally can't be and simply aren't reflective of performance in a group, and that's before we look at issues like survivability and cleave where sorc again falls behind in PvE... And that's before we strip the pets away, for those of us who wish for a non-pet build.

I can only, as I have in the past, yet again add my voice to those saying how bad the sorc class sets are. Improvements would be very appreciated.