Peak Competitive Gameplay - The Poor State of Combat Balance

Aldoss · December 20

This is the genius that is the current state of ESO combat balance:

4 acuity wardens
4 polar winds
4 charms
4 northern storms
4 arterial bursts

I'm a cro, so my totaled cmx shows 2.9M damage, meaning I did more damage than 2 of them combined, but they have 4x ticks of polar wind with 100% uptime ticking on them constantly. They have minor lifesteal 100% uptime with leeching vines. None of them have any heal other than polar, leeching, and vigor.

When ult is down, they just exist. You get arterialed, but it doesn't hurt. You get shalked and it doesn't hurt. But polar carries them hard and it's nearly impossible to drop them.

Then they get their ult. You get snared and it's everything you can do to stop doing what you're doing and try to get out of the aoe before the charm hits. If the charm hits, you just die. GG. It's >20k dps just from the storms.

The moment ZOS wakes up and does something about polar wind and cross healing in general, this game can become interesting again. As it is, this is a perfect example of how embarrassing the state of combat is. There's no reason for 4 DDs to be able to do no dmg for 30 seconds at a time, but still not die because they have 3k HPS just from their cross heals alone as non-healers. That stat doesn't account for their vigors, just the polars and leeching vines. And then every 30 sec, they have essentially an "I win" card.

This is in the group queue and we fought them 3 times tonight. They ran with a NB for one match, but the other two were quad acuity warden. Maybe if wife and I were in a 4 stack as well and in comms then we would have dropped them more than the twice we managed to, but it doesn't really matter what the outcome was. This post isn't about winning or losing. It's just to showcase how poor the state of combat balance is.

This is why people are upset @ZOS_BrianWheeler (and since I doubt you visit the forums, I'll ping @ZOS_Kevin and @ZOS_JessicaFolsom). Polar hasn't been touched in over a year. Why is it still allowed to do what it can do? Why is it fine for DDs to be able to passively crossheal 3k HPS using skills that they would otherwise use selfishly anyway?

My wife and I got put in a lobby against them for a 4th time tonight as our last BG and we just chose to log off. It was another Crazy King 4v4, which means it was going to be yet another 15min of trying to out dps their polar spam and vines and trying to not get charmed during their quad storm ult dump. Bland. Boring. Meta.

React · December 20

Polar wind is an absolute joke of a skill. It has to be the single least balanced heal in the entire game. At 45k+ HP, the burst heal alone is stronger than any other burst heal in the game, and it hits two people every cast while also applying one of the strongest sticky HOTs in the entire game.

Heals should not scale with health, or any defensive stat. It is bad game design. Damage shields shouldn't either, but that is a whole other can of worms that zenimax seems to be opening further each patch with the introduction of scribing, arcanist, health scaling on conjured, etc.

Polar wind should be made into a self heal only. If the reason for polar wind being so strong is that they want PVE tanks to be able to heal themselves, then make it a self heal. It will still be annoying killing a polar wind warden with 45k+ health, but at least they won't be effortlessly allowing everyone around them to survive indefinitely while spamming one skill.

Sluggy · December 20

React wrote: »

Polar wind should be made into a self heal only. If the reason for polar wind being so strong is that they want PVE tanks to be able to heal themselves, then make it a self heal. It will still be annoying killing a polar wind warden with 45k+ health, but at least they won't be effortlessly allowing everyone around them to survive indefinitely while spamming one skill.

I'd put it to you that we shouldn't want PvE tanks healing themselves so much either...

The_Meathead · December 20

Great post.

I'd also hop on with the subject and add that Warden Charm desperately needs an animation so we're instantly aware when it hits.

Thumbless_Bot · December 20

The_Meathead wrote: »

Great post.

I'd also hop on with the subject and add that Warden Charm desperately needs an animation so we're instantly aware when it hits.

As a Warden main i just want to add that I agree with both comments. I am not lactose intolerant, but I really dislike cheez.

Polar is busted and should be a self heal that scales of, well, not health,

Charm should have never made it out of the initial brainstorming session where it was born. Absolutely terrible design and terrible implementation. There is no good reason this exists on live.

So, I never ran Acuity but the problem with northern is not northern, it's Acuity. Even with a four second window this set is cracked because it stacks from 60 to 80 to 100, so really lasts like 5-6 seconds with high crit.

The_Meathead · December 20

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Charm should have never made it out of the initial brainstorming session where it was born. Absolutely terrible design and terrible implementation. There is no good reason this exists on live.

First, always appreciate someone who's fully objective about their own class. +1000 Intenretz to you, good sir.

And yeah, I wasn't calling for the eradication of the Class Script but it IS pretty baffling that NB's old Fear mechanic was removed because it was problematic, only to be brought back to the game years later for Wardens but without a warning animation.

It's decisions like these that don't inspire confidence. Will the next Class created have the old DK Wings or Bat Swarm?

Hope I'm not detracting from OP's intent, though. Cross-healing and -shielding is at ludicrous strength most especially visible with Cyrodiil Ball Groups, but the microcosm of Battlegrounds and Wardens certainly clearly illustrates similar woes and it's a good thing to bring up.

EDIT: Because sometimes I suck at Quoting.

MincMincMinc · December 20

React wrote: »

Polar wind is an absolute joke of a skill. It has to be the single least balanced heal in the entire game. At 45k+ HP, the burst heal alone is stronger than any other burst heal in the game, and it hits two people every cast while also applying one of the strongest sticky HOTs in the entire game.

Heals should not scale with health, or any defensive stat. It is bad game design. Damage shields shouldn't either, but that is a whole other can of worms that zenimax seems to be opening further each patch with the introduction of scribing, arcanist, health scaling on conjured, etc.

Polar wind should be made into a self heal only. If the reason for polar wind being so strong is that they want PVE tanks to be able to heal themselves, then make it a self heal. It will still be annoying killing a polar wind warden with 45k+ health, but at least they won't be effortlessly allowing everyone around them to survive indefinitely while spamming one skill.

Correct, so lets nerf stamsorc, templar, or necro instead

Aldoss · December 21

I'm gonna be honest, I don't think I really have that much of a problem with anything in this post other than polar wind and cross healing in general.

Acuity is fine and northern is fine. The charm is fine, too, generally speaking. It would all be okay if their HPS were to not suddenly be 3k HPS because of 2 skills, one of which they use selfishly, which allows them to become a class that simply vomits cross heals just by existing and using skills they would use anyway.

I have 3 healing spells too: resistant flesh, vigor, and mender. Let's play this out:

- resistant flesh - heals 1 player in a linear direction for 3600 base and gives me minor defile and gives the player half of the amount healed as armor
- intensive mender - heals up to 3x players for a base of 1439 every 2 sec for 8 seconds
- vigor - selfish stamina hot

The wardens all had:

- polar wind - heals the caster and one other player in the radius for 4958 base, gives both of the players a hot that heals 1229 base every 2sec for 10 sec, and gives both players minor toughness (10% hp boost) for 20 sec. The heal scales off the caster's hp
- leeching vines - heals 718 base every time they take dmg, up to once per second, for 10 seconds and afflicts the opponent with minor lifesteal which heals anyone hitting that player by 600 base, up to once per second
- vigor - selfish stamina hot

1 cast of each class skill has the potential to heal:

Necro:
3600 resistant flesh
+ ((1439 x 3) x 4) = 17268 intensive mender
= 20,868 healing from 2 skills

Warden:
(4952 x 2) + ((1226 x 2) x 5) = 22,176 polar wind
+ 7180 + ((600 x 4) x 10) = 31,180 leeching vines
= 53,356 healing from 2 skills

Can we all just take a moment to admire how juiced polar wind is when compared against necro? Polar wind heals for more, heals two players, doesn't need to be aimed, scales off an easy to source defensive stat, and gives a hot that almost matches an entire other skill on my bar. It's actually wild! They get the effect of two of my skills in one skill and its effects are compounding, meaning the more wardens you have, the more effective the crosshealing. All they have to do is stay next to each other and they have one of the biggest burst and hot heals in the game while being DDs.

That's not even getting into the nuance of the fact that their heal gives them a beneficial minor buff that also boosts the scaling of this juiced skill while my pitiful class heal actively debuffs me every time I use it.

For funsies, let's compare it to another cro heal that I think represents an actually balanced skill - renewing undeath:

(2399 x 4) x 2 (for when a corpse is available) = 19,192 healing when it hits a group of 4.

Polar wind even beats this skill. Sure, renewing undeath is also amazing because of the aoe cleanse, but that can actually destroy you if there's someone running plague against you, so you can't fully replace resistant flesh with this skill. And again, the double healing hot mechanic can only happen when there's a corpse available.

This is a situation where, as much as I hate to say it, other classes should not be buffed to be brought in line with the cross healing power of polar wind. It's simply too strong and perpetuates the boring tank DD meta, where nothing happens outside of pulls and ult dumps.

And again, it's not just polar wind at play here. It's just too much cross healing possibility from a couple key skills. Vines, when it can be maxed out and all 4 group mates are able to capitalize on the life steal 100%, outperforms intensive mender by nearly 100%. That's absurd.

We jab at ZOS all the time for their spreadsheet balancing. Well I'm looking at this and I'm just really at a loss for what spreadsheet they're looking at. The numbers are right there. 2 of the most common warden skills can more than double the healing of 2 of the most common necro heals.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom, you've been asking for more input as to what we want to see from a Q & A. This is a great way to kick start a big discussion on the current state of combat balance. It's imbalances like this that fueled the outburst from the BG Brawl livestream. The numbers I just outlined are pathetically imbalanced and they've been this way for years.

The best time to talk to us about this was 3 years ago. The next best time to talk to us about this is right now. Don't put it off. Do something in January. It cannot wait anymore.

Taril · December 21

Really, most of this comes down to how "DPS" are able to push out damage while stacking health.

Like, if we really go over things that are being complained about:

1) Polar Wind scaling of Health. This is because it's designed as a Tank skill for Tanks to improve their own survivability and the one stat that Tanks stack... Is health. Not Max Magicka. Not Weapon/Spell Damage. Health.

This is on par with many other class heals that are based on their health because they're designed for Tanks (Green Dragon Blood, Igneous Shield, Clannifear, Conjured Ward (Though it also has separate scaling for Magicka for some reason allowing full DPS to still get giant shields), Dark Cloak, Rune Focus, Sun Shield, Hungry Scythe, Bitter Harvest and Runespite Ward)

There simply exists a design whereby Tanks are able to sustain themselves through some healing/shielding skills which scales off the one stat they stack.

2) Polar Wind healing another target is again some level of Tank utility. Providing the ability to aid other party members while doing their Tank thing since that's generally what Tanking is about. Self sustain to stay alive and then everything else is about helping the party, be it through debuffs (Like Breach/vulnerability/Maim) or buffs (Like War Horn).

Though Polar Wind is unique in that it is the only "Tank" sustain skill that provides equal effect to another targer. With Igneous Shield being the only other "Tank" skill that effects anyone else at all, just with a significantly reduced value for the allies shields. (Of course Scribing allows for Soul Burst and Ulfsild's Contingency to become AoE Damage Shields that scale off Health and provide full benefits to ALL allies)

3) While this facet of Tank design exists... It doesn't stop the lethality possible by such builds that stack Health. I.e. Northern Storm doing high damage (So while they're not doing much outside of this as noted "You get arterialed, but it doesn't hurt. You get shalked and it doesn't hurt." they are still capable of being a threat simply due to the high damage of the ult despite not having much in terms of damage stats)

As such, it results in this ability to succeed in PvP because these builds can be full tank builds, stacking health and healing each other with fully scaled Tank heal skills... But also able to actually do things because the ult does just a ton of damage on its own.

Meaning that the most logical course of action would be to tone down Polar Wind's secondary heal, so it's not providing full benefits to the allies it affects (Or just reworking the morph into something else besides "Heal an ally").

Whilst also toning down just how much damage that Northern Storm does on its own, making it more reliant on building damage (Therefore, not Health) to have such a lethal impact.

Though from what I've seen from complaints, this is indicative of a more systemic issue with "DDs" being able to stack health and still push out damage overall (With also "Unkillable Tank Healers" being another common complaint due to the natural ability to obtain offensive stats while still stacking Health and leveraging these powerful defensive skills designed for Tanks). Which seems to highlight a potential need for Max Resource to be more impactful for builds, so it's harder to have your cake and eat it too by being a full on DD or Healer while stacking Health and becoming tanky because you're able to use W/S Damage to scale your damage/heals while using your max health to scale survivability options at the same time.

Turtle_Bot · December 21

What did we expect to happen when ZOS turned the alternative morph (Arctic Blast), that was keeping SOME wardens as "squishy" (30k health) DDs, into a completely non-functional ability.

To this day, I still cannot fathom how the Arctic Blast rework could have been allowed to go through all the checks and quality control processes involved in software development and end up like it did, not to mention being left in that state for multiple patches now despite massive feedback about that change...

Avran_Sylt · December 21

Taril wrote: »

Really, most of this comes down to how "DPS" are able to push out damage while stacking health.

Like, if we really go over things that are being complained about:

1) Polar Wind scaling of Health. This is because it's designed as a Tank skill for Tanks to improve their own survivability and the one stat that Tanks stack... Is health. Not Max Magicka. Not Weapon/Spell Damage. Health.

This is on par with many other class heals that are based on their health because they're designed for Tanks (Green Dragon Blood, Igneous Shield, Clannifear, Conjured Ward (Though it also has separate scaling for Magicka for some reason allowing full DPS to still get giant shields), Dark Cloak, Rune Focus, Sun Shield, Hungry Scythe, Bitter Harvest and Runespite Ward)

There simply exists a design whereby Tanks are able to sustain themselves through some healing/shielding skills which scales off the one stat they stack.

2) Polar Wind healing another target is again some level of Tank utility. Providing the ability to aid other party members while doing their Tank thing since that's generally what Tanking is about. Self sustain to stay alive and then everything else is about helping the party, be it through debuffs (Like Breach/vulnerability/Maim) or buffs (Like War Horn).

Though Polar Wind is unique in that it is the only "Tank" sustain skill that provides equal effect to another targer. With Igneous Shield being the only other "Tank" skill that effects anyone else at all, just with a significantly reduced value for the allies shields. (Of course Scribing allows for Soul Burst and Ulfsild's Contingency to become AoE Damage Shields that scale off Health and provide full benefits to ALL allies)

3) While this facet of Tank design exists... It doesn't stop the lethality possible by such builds that stack Health. I.e. Northern Storm doing high damage (So while they're not doing much outside of this as noted "You get arterialed, but it doesn't hurt. You get shalked and it doesn't hurt." they are still capable of being a threat simply due to the high damage of the ult despite not having much in terms of damage stats)

As such, it results in this ability to succeed in PvP because these builds can be full tank builds, stacking health and healing each other with fully scaled Tank heal skills... But also able to actually do things because the ult does just a ton of damage on its own.

Meaning that the most logical course of action would be to tone down Polar Wind's secondary heal, so it's not providing full benefits to the allies it affects (Or just reworking the morph into something else besides "Heal an ally").

Whilst also toning down just how much damage that Northern Storm does on its own, making it more reliant on building damage (Therefore, not Health) to have such a lethal impact.

Though from what I've seen from complaints, this is indicative of a more systemic issue with "DDs" being able to stack health and still push out damage overall (With also "Unkillable Tank Healers" being another common complaint due to the natural ability to obtain offensive stats while still stacking Health and leveraging these powerful defensive skills designed for Tanks). Which seems to highlight a potential need for Max Resource to be more impactful for builds, so it's harder to have your cake and eat it too by being a full on DD or Healer while stacking Health and becoming tanky because you're able to use W/S Damage to scale your damage/heals while using your max health to scale survivability options at the same time.

More raw resources let you attack/break free (stamina) more often without needing to use a potion/Heavy attack.

Were damage to scale harder with resources than WD/SD It’d also need a rebalance of many resource stacking sets like Dragur Hulk, Necropotence, Crafty Alfiq.

And also bring to question WD/SD’s role in the game. (If damage just now shifts to resources).

One thing that could be looked at is why, when it comes to stat additions, HP stat lines gives more stats than Stamina or Magika.

When it comes to Tri-stat food, how much does a players damage output increase, comparative to their survivability increase?

I remember when Battle Spirit used to add a flat 5K HP to players.

That’s not a thing anymore.

Maybe Battle-spirit should reduce max health?

(This would have an unfortunate effect on players that are undergeared though).

Joy_Division · December 21

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

To this day, I still cannot fathom how the Arctic Blast rework could have been allowed to go through all the checks and quality control processes involved in software development and end up like it did, not to mention being left in that state for multiple patches now despite massive feedback about that change...

ZOS PTS cycle does not have checks and quality controls processes.

Thumbless_Bot · December 21

Aldoss wrote: »

I'm gonna be honest, I don't think I really have that much of a problem with anything in this post other than polar wind and cross healing in general.

Acuity is fine and northern is fine. The charm is fine, too, generally speaking. It would all be okay if their HPS were to not suddenly be 3k HPS because of 2 skills, one of which they use selfishly, which allows them to become a class that simply vomits cross heals just by existing and using skills they would use anyway.

I have 3 healing spells too: resistant flesh, vigor, and mender. Let's play this out:

- resistant flesh - heals 1 player in a linear direction for 3600 base and gives me minor defile and gives the player half of the amount healed as armor
- intensive mender - heals up to 3x players for a base of 1439 every 2 sec for 8 seconds
- vigor - selfish stamina hot

The wardens all had:

- polar wind - heals the caster and one other player in the radius for 4958 base, gives both of the players a hot that heals 1229 base every 2sec for 10 sec, and gives both players minor toughness (10% hp boost) for 20 sec. The heal scales off the caster's hp
- leeching vines - heals 718 base every time they take dmg, up to once per second, for 10 seconds and afflicts the opponent with minor lifesteal which heals anyone hitting that player by 600 base, up to once per second
- vigor - selfish stamina hot

1 cast of each class skill has the potential to heal:

Necro:
3600 resistant flesh
+ ((1439 x 3) x 4) = 17268 intensive mender
= 20,868 healing from 2 skills

Warden:
(4952 x 2) + ((1226 x 2) x 5) = 22,176 polar wind
+ 7180 + ((600 x 4) x 10) = 31,180 leeching vines
= 53,356 healing from 2 skills

Can we all just take a moment to admire how juiced polar wind is when compared against necro? Polar wind heals for more, heals two players, doesn't need to be aimed, scales off an easy to source defensive stat, and gives a hot that almost matches an entire other skill on my bar. It's actually wild! They get the effect of two of my skills in one skill and its effects are compounding, meaning the more wardens you have, the more effective the crosshealing. All they have to do is stay next to each other and they have one of the biggest burst and hot heals in the game while being DDs.

That's not even getting into the nuance of the fact that their heal gives them a beneficial minor buff that also boosts the scaling of this juiced skill while my pitiful class heal actively debuffs me every time I use it.

For funsies, let's compare it to another cro heal that I think represents an actually balanced skill - renewing undeath:

(2399 x 4) x 2 (for when a corpse is available) = 19,192 healing when it hits a group of 4.

Polar wind even beats this skill. Sure, renewing undeath is also amazing because of the aoe cleanse, but that can actually destroy you if there's someone running plague against you, so you can't fully replace resistant flesh with this skill. And again, the double healing hot mechanic can only happen when there's a corpse available.

This is a situation where, as much as I hate to say it, other classes should not be buffed to be brought in line with the cross healing power of polar wind. It's simply too strong and perpetuates the boring tank DD meta, where nothing happens outside of pulls and ult dumps.

And again, it's not just polar wind at play here. It's just too much cross healing possibility from a couple key skills. Vines, when it can be maxed out and all 4 group mates are able to capitalize on the life steal 100%, outperforms intensive mender by nearly 100%. That's absurd.

We jab at ZOS all the time for their spreadsheet balancing. Well I'm looking at this and I'm just really at a loss for what spreadsheet they're looking at. The numbers are right there. 2 of the most common warden skills can more than double the healing of 2 of the most common necro heals.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom, you've been asking for more input as to what we want to see from a Q & A. This is a great way to kick start a big discussion on the current state of combat balance. It's imbalances like this that fueled the outburst from the BG Brawl livestream. The numbers I just outlined are pathetically imbalanced and they've been this way for years.

The best time to talk to us about this was 3 years ago. The next best time to talk to us about this is right now. Don't put it off. Do something in January. It cannot wait anymore.

Less nerfing and more buffing is the way to go. Necro burst heal is a dumpster fire for two reasons. It might heal you or someone else and it gives minor defile. There's something wrong with that

IncultaWolf · December 21

Let warden keep the damage, but polar wind was a mistake. It should never heal allies for as much as it does. It's a tank ability

Taril · December 22

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Were damage to scale harder with resources than WD/SD It’d also need a rebalance of many resource stacking sets like Dragur Hulk, Necropotence, Crafty Alfiq.

Of course. Given the systematic nature of the issue, the resolution would involve a large rebalance. Not only of resource stacking sets, but also all the W/S Damage sets.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

And also bring to question WD/SD’s role in the game. (If damage just now shifts to resources).

One potential avenue would be to separate W/S Damage and Healing increases. There's plenty of discussion about how DD's can heal too much or Healers do too much damage because both just stack W/S Damage which improves both damage and healing (Outside of the "Tank" heals that scale instead on Health)

Meaning that a DD would need to obtain W/S Damage and their Max Resource and a Healer would need to get Healing Increase and their Max Resource. While Tanks will stack Health and Armour like they currently do.

Thereby limiting the overall nature for cross-role bleeding to occur. (I.e. "Tank" survivability skills would only be useful for Tanks. Healing skills are only strong for Healers. DD's are the only ones that deal significant damage)

Of course, we'd also need to look into rebalancing abilities too. So that DD's can still have some self sustain.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Maybe Battle-spirit should reduce max health?

The issue with that is it has plenty of ways to not work. Such as by making Health Stacking mandatory because otherwise you have too little health to survive (Simply amplifying this whole problem of Health stacked DD's/Healers). It can also make Tanks useless because it just shuts down the literal only thing they provide which is high survivability (Which is already limited in use to sitting on objectives in BG's).

ESO_Nightingale · December 22

Joy_Division wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

To this day, I still cannot fathom how the Arctic Blast rework could have been allowed to go through all the checks and quality control processes involved in software development and end up like it did, not to mention being left in that state for multiple patches now despite massive feedback about that change...

ZOS PTS cycle does not have checks and quality controls processes.

Facts. We would have stopped that change from going through if anyone was listening.

Aldoss · December 22

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Aldoss wrote: »

I'm gonna be honest, I don't think I really have that much of a problem with anything in this post other than polar wind and cross healing in general.

Acuity is fine and northern is fine. The charm is fine, too, generally speaking. It would all be okay if their HPS were to not suddenly be 3k HPS because of 2 skills, one of which they use selfishly, which allows them to become a class that simply vomits cross heals just by existing and using skills they would use anyway.

I have 3 healing spells too: resistant flesh, vigor, and mender. Let's play this out:

- resistant flesh - heals 1 player in a linear direction for 3600 base and gives me minor defile and gives the player half of the amount healed as armor
- intensive mender - heals up to 3x players for a base of 1439 every 2 sec for 8 seconds
- vigor - selfish stamina hot

The wardens all had:

- polar wind - heals the caster and one other player in the radius for 4958 base, gives both of the players a hot that heals 1229 base every 2sec for 10 sec, and gives both players minor toughness (10% hp boost) for 20 sec. The heal scales off the caster's hp
- leeching vines - heals 718 base every time they take dmg, up to once per second, for 10 seconds and afflicts the opponent with minor lifesteal which heals anyone hitting that player by 600 base, up to once per second
- vigor - selfish stamina hot

1 cast of each class skill has the potential to heal:

Necro:
3600 resistant flesh
+ ((1439 x 3) x 4) = 17268 intensive mender
= 20,868 healing from 2 skills

Warden:
(4952 x 2) + ((1226 x 2) x 5) = 22,176 polar wind
+ 7180 + ((600 x 4) x 10) = 31,180 leeching vines
= 53,356 healing from 2 skills

Can we all just take a moment to admire how juiced polar wind is when compared against necro? Polar wind heals for more, heals two players, doesn't need to be aimed, scales off an easy to source defensive stat, and gives a hot that almost matches an entire other skill on my bar. It's actually wild! They get the effect of two of my skills in one skill and its effects are compounding, meaning the more wardens you have, the more effective the crosshealing. All they have to do is stay next to each other and they have one of the biggest burst and hot heals in the game while being DDs.

That's not even getting into the nuance of the fact that their heal gives them a beneficial minor buff that also boosts the scaling of this juiced skill while my pitiful class heal actively debuffs me every time I use it.

For funsies, let's compare it to another cro heal that I think represents an actually balanced skill - renewing undeath:

(2399 x 4) x 2 (for when a corpse is available) = 19,192 healing when it hits a group of 4.

Polar wind even beats this skill. Sure, renewing undeath is also amazing because of the aoe cleanse, but that can actually destroy you if there's someone running plague against you, so you can't fully replace resistant flesh with this skill. And again, the double healing hot mechanic can only happen when there's a corpse available.

This is a situation where, as much as I hate to say it, other classes should not be buffed to be brought in line with the cross healing power of polar wind. It's simply too strong and perpetuates the boring tank DD meta, where nothing happens outside of pulls and ult dumps.

And again, it's not just polar wind at play here. It's just too much cross healing possibility from a couple key skills. Vines, when it can be maxed out and all 4 group mates are able to capitalize on the life steal 100%, outperforms intensive mender by nearly 100%. That's absurd.

We jab at ZOS all the time for their spreadsheet balancing. Well I'm looking at this and I'm just really at a loss for what spreadsheet they're looking at. The numbers are right there. 2 of the most common warden skills can more than double the healing of 2 of the most common necro heals.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom, you've been asking for more input as to what we want to see from a Q & A. This is a great way to kick start a big discussion on the current state of combat balance. It's imbalances like this that fueled the outburst from the BG Brawl livestream. The numbers I just outlined are pathetically imbalanced and they've been this way for years.

The best time to talk to us about this was 3 years ago. The next best time to talk to us about this is right now. Don't put it off. Do something in January. It cannot wait anymore.

Less nerfing and more buffing is the way to go. Necro burst heal is a dumpster fire for two reasons. It might heal you or someone else and it gives minor defile. There's something wrong with that

I hear you, and I'm generally with you with most things... But not this.

Can you imagine every class having a skill that has the raw healing power as Polar Wind?

Let's not forget, warden already has a burst heal in their actual healing tree, Fungal Growth, and no one uses it. It's directional (conal), heals for less than polar and resistant (2700 base), but always heals the caster and any number of allies in the cone. It's an okay heal, but the existence of polar makes it look awful.

As I said before, the problem in this post is not the damage of acuity or northern storm. If 4x magdens want to go all in on 4x acuity northern storms, then I'm for all it! I should always die to 4x players coordinating their ults like that.

What I have a problem with is the fact that, when outside of those 8 seconds, they are nigh unkillable. That's a balance issue. Again, they out healed 3M damage this match while I kept major and minor defile on them for 90+%.

If polar needs to exist for warden tanks, it needs to stop being the primary support heal of the entire class. Tanks use it. Healers use it. DDs use it. No one uses the skill that was originally intended to be the class burst skill because of how amazing polar is.

It either needs to become a selfish heal, or cross healing as a whole needs a major adjustment (it does), or it needs to have its cost drastically increased to match the overwhelming power that its been granted.

Turtle_Bot · December 22

Joy_Division wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

To this day, I still cannot fathom how the Arctic Blast rework could have been allowed to go through all the checks and quality control processes involved in software development and end up like it did, not to mention being left in that state for multiple patches now despite massive feedback about that change...

ZOS PTS cycle does not have checks and quality controls processes.

It certainly seems that way based on many things like this occurring over numerous patches over the past couple of years (Arctic blast, Jabs, Monolith of Storms, GLS, etc.)

dark_hunterxmg · December 23

Aldoss wrote: »

It either needs to become a selfish heal, or cross healing as a whole needs a major adjustment (it does), or it needs to have its cost drastically increased to match the overwhelming power that its been granted.

The amount of utility that this skill provides for the cost is incredible. What does it cost to cast? 4000-4300? I see that and then look at the cost of Hircine's Fortitude at 5700mag for a single burst heal (on a stamina character) and I see a huge problem.