Sometimes you do need to block for an extended period of time, like when a boss does a channeled attack on you, unless you use the sword and shield ultimate, I suppose. Nothing really forces you to roll dodge or streak repeatedly.

Blocking prevents stamina regeneration, so there is that.
Have you ever tanked a trial?
I don't think the game needs any more things to make people like tanking less.

If there was blocking fatigue, we would have to get rid of the stamina cut. Skills like defensive posture would probably become a fatique purge where you trade mag or stam regen to turn off fatigue.

With no stamina cut people will still find ways to permablock or atleast for a really long time. With power creep inevitably this really long time will get longer and longer to the point where people could block for 1min.......2min......5min.....10min

---

Other ways would be to change up block cost structure. Tick cost per hit? per 1/4sec blocking after hit? per 1/8sec blocking after hit?

I havent checked how it calculates block cost in like 7+ years. I remember it used to hit you once every 1/8s if you received damage in that tick. However all attacks were blockable like dots, aoe dots, etc. People complained that these sources shouldnt be blockable because it makes no sense IRL...... Inevitably this started the perma block meta at the time because instead of hitting 8/8 ticks and gas them out you could only hit 2/8 ticks. The tank would just face tank a few dots passing block while mitigating all the burst.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

If there was blocking fatigue, we would have to get rid of the stamina cut. Skills like defensive posture would probably become a fatique purge where you trade mag or stam regen to turn off fatigue.

With no stamina cut people will still find ways to permablock or atleast for a really long time. With power creep inevitably this really long time will get longer and longer to the point where people could block for 1min.......2min......5min.....10min

---

Other ways would be to change up block cost structure. Tick cost per hit? per 1/4sec blocking after hit? per 1/8sec blocking after hit?

I havent checked how it calculates block cost in like 7+ years. I remember it used to hit you once every 1/8s if you received damage in that tick. However all attacks were blockable like dots, aoe dots, etc. People complained that these sources shouldnt be blockable because it makes no sense IRL...... Inevitably this started the perma block meta at the time because instead of hitting 8/8 ticks and gas them out you could only hit 2/8 ticks. The tank would just face tank a few dots passing block while mitigating all the burst.

You know, does blocking block ground-based sources of damage too?

Like Wall of Elements.

I'd want to say that no, it doesn't since it doesn't make sense that you're blocking something you're literally standing in. But I also can't recall that off the top of my head.

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

M0ntie wrote: »

Blocking prevents stamina regeneration, so there is that.
Have you ever tanked a trial?
I don't think the game needs any more things to make people like tanking less.

Yep.

Though that’s way back with craglorn release, was a Trials tank for Sanctum/Hel/Archive now and then when needed.

Lotta just holding block. (Aside from pulling stragglers).

And, respectfully, it shows.

Since you last tanked a trial:

- Blocking shut off stamina
- Sources of block cost reduce have been nerfed
- New mechanics require a duration of blocking against debilitating attacks for a set time period.
- Block cost was calculated to 1/.25 seconds, meaning you can be charged 4 times every second if you're being swarmed.

I have to ask, are you coming from a pvp perspective, or a pve perspective? I don't have much experience in pvp so I'm willing to take someone's word that block is an issue there. In pve, block has received nothing but nerfs from the "glory days" that you're remembering.

PvP predominately. (kinda why the recoup stamina suggestion is about landing a heavy attack, something that is much harder in PvP than in PvE, if your opponent is so inclined to avoid it)

Out of curiosity, those same mechanics that require a set duration of blocking, can you roll-dodge out of the range of those attacks? Or is it predominantly a gear-check on your block mitigation.

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Title, I guess. Roll-dodge fatigue serve to allow faster attrition against a defensive action.

But, why doesn't block have any fatigue/escalating cost to block as you block more in small timeframe?

It is. You run out of stamina and you can no longer block. And stamina doesn't regenerate while blocking. What more do you want?

For consecutive blocking without pause to escalate in costs to prohibit indefinite blocking against a damage source?

Perhaps some damage abilities to ignore block entirely? (Such as ground-targetted AoE)

Every consecutive dodge-roll within 4s adds 1.2K stamina to its cost (at least for me with no investment into dodge-roll, not sure if the added cost is flat or derived from base cost). Even if the cost gets lowered you can still get caught by roll-catches (Direct AoE) and immobilized which further adds to resource costs to break free.

But with block you can avoid a stark majority of disables and other effects that could otherwise have been used to further attrition warfare, and there are several more methods to lower block cost too. (I don't see any jewelry Glyphs that reduce roll-dodge cost).

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

M0ntie wrote: »

Blocking prevents stamina regeneration, so there is that.
Have you ever tanked a trial?
I don't think the game needs any more things to make people like tanking less.

Yep.

Though that’s way back with craglorn release, was a Trials tank for Sanctum/Hel/Archive now and then when needed.

Lotta just holding block. (Aside from pulling stragglers).

And, respectfully, it shows.

Since you last tanked a trial:

- Blocking shut off stamina
- Sources of block cost reduce have been nerfed
- New mechanics require a duration of blocking against debilitating attacks for a set time period.
- Block cost was calculated to 1/.25 seconds, meaning you can be charged 4 times every second if you're being swarmed.

I have to ask, are you coming from a pvp perspective, or a pve perspective? I don't have much experience in pvp so I'm willing to take someone's word that block is an issue there. In pve, block has received nothing but nerfs from the "glory days" that you're remembering.

PvP predominately. (kinda why the recoup stamina suggestion is about landing a heavy attack, something that is much harder in PvP than in PvE, if your opponent is so inclined to avoid it)

Fair enough. Like I said, I'm not a pvp player (and certainly not enough to weigh in on balance there).

Out of curiosity, those same mechanics that require a set duration of blocking, can you roll-dodge out of the range of those attacks? Or is it predominantly a gear-check on your block mitigation.

Yes*.

Some of those mechanics can be roll dodged, and indeed there are some mechanics where you must roll dodge and *not* block. Some of those, frustratingly, have the same cues as a heavy attack and kill you until you learn. Some, however, must be blocked for their duration or it will kill you or another player (Bal Sunnar and Bloodroot both come to mind here).

The secondary issue we're seeing with block/block mitigation is that the current concensus around tanking in endgame scenarios (predominantly score pushing) requires tanks to wear sets that do not assist the survival of the tank, but the damage of the dps. Without armor, and without set effects, a lot of high end tanking comes down to a very finely calibrated dance of "do I have the resources to survive long enough for the dps burn".

I am not exaggerating when I suggest the case for the top end of Trials tanks is so close that one missed block could cause a wipe, and ruin the entire run for all 12 people involved.

With this understanding, you might see why I'm hesitant to further disadvantage block for eve's side of things. We can have a lengthy discussion on using two support sets and nothing to help boost survivability until the cows come home (and I'd love to have that conversation in another thread), but PvP should not stifle the experience of PvE, and the other way around is true as well.

Maybe with the Cyrodiil experiments they're trying this year, block can be adjusted with battle spirit.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Sometimes you do need to block for an extended period of time, like when a boss does a channeled attack on you, unless you use the sword and shield ultimate, I suppose. Nothing really forces you to roll dodge or streak repeatedly.

Depending on the attack (technical implementation), I mean you could just spam roll-dodge like you’re in a sense literally dodging their attacks. Play as the taunting jester.

Or perhaps incorporate a kind of “second wind” minigame to blocking: performing a heavy attack after suffering Block Fatigue will restore some of the lost resources. (Amount restored depends on weapon type).

I was thinking about this question as a matter of how terrible that would be to sustain, but reading newer comments on this thread reminded me that there are bosses you cannot roll dodge or they enrage or do something else. I think this is to combat fake tanks just roll dodging heavy attacks or to force tanks to mitigate damage. Coral Aerie last boss throws everyone back if you roll dodge. First boss in Sanity's Edge enrages if you roll dodge, which is really bad because the entire group takes more damage during shrapnel. Same thing with Earthen Root Enclave first boss. Bedlam Veil first boss also enrages.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Sometimes you do need to block for an extended period of time, like when a boss does a channeled attack on you, unless you use the sword and shield ultimate, I suppose. Nothing really forces you to roll dodge or streak repeatedly.

Depending on the attack (technical implementation), I mean you could just spam roll-dodge like you’re in a sense literally dodging their attacks. Play as the taunting jester.

Or perhaps incorporate a kind of “second wind” minigame to blocking: performing a heavy attack after suffering Block Fatigue will restore some of the lost resources. (Amount restored depends on weapon type).

I was thinking about this question as a matter of how terrible that would be to sustain, but reading newer comments on this thread reminded me that there are bosses you cannot roll dodge or they enrage or do something else. I think this is to combat fake tanks just roll dodging heavy attacks or to force tanks to mitigate damage. Coral Aerie last boss throws everyone back if you roll dodge. First boss in Sanity's Edge enrages if you roll dodge, which is really bad because the entire group takes more damage during shrapnel. Same thing with Earthen Root Enclave first boss. Bedlam Veil first boss also enrages.

Though I haven't played those: Is it sensical that the bosses mechanics differ if you block or roll-dodge? Does it fit with the lore, the attack, its telegraph?

Dodging an attack in newer content doesn't give you a different mechanic, it punishes you and sometimes also punishes the group. Enraged enemies just do more damage, so if they have any AoE damage (like first boss sanity's edge and first boss earthen root enclave, for instance) you just make things harder if not nigh impossible for the healer(s). In Coral Aerie, I swear it used to 1-shot but now its more of a problem of getting thrown into the slaughterfish or thrown into a 1-shot. I'm sure there's more examples of boss enraging on roll dodge, especially in newer content, but those are the ones that come to mind.
Also, you can't continuously roll dodge around because then you're dragging the boss out of DPS aoes and making the DPS move out of healer aoes. So, even if you could roll dodge a boss you'd have to do it standing against a wall (if there are any) or by going forwards and backwards, maybe side to side.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

If there was blocking fatigue, we would have to get rid of the stamina cut. Skills like defensive posture would probably become a fatique purge where you trade mag or stam regen to turn off fatigue.

With no stamina cut people will still find ways to permablock or atleast for a really long time. With power creep inevitably this really long time will get longer and longer to the point where people could block for 1min.......2min......5min.....10min

---

Other ways would be to change up block cost structure. Tick cost per hit? per 1/4sec blocking after hit? per 1/8sec blocking after hit?

I havent checked how it calculates block cost in like 7+ years. I remember it used to hit you once every 1/8s if you received damage in that tick. However all attacks were blockable like dots, aoe dots, etc. People complained that these sources shouldnt be blockable because it makes no sense IRL...... Inevitably this started the perma block meta at the time because instead of hitting 8/8 ticks and gas them out you could only hit 2/8 ticks. The tank would just face tank a few dots passing block while mitigating all the burst.

You know, does blocking block ground-based sources of damage too?

Like Wall of Elements.

I'd want to say that no, it doesn't since it doesn't make sense that you're blocking something you're literally standing in. But I also can't recall that off the top of my head.

blocking does not work against DOTs, anything considered a dot ignores block

so wall of elements is in a sense unblockable, but the amount of dmg it does is so low it can be easily outhealed in pvp

arcanists beam is much stronger and better at putting pressure on block tanks (as the beam is not blockable due to being a dot, ticks 3 times a second and is stronger than most other dots)

dots are the ideal way to pressure a tank, but due to the state of the game now with weak dots its hard to pressure them

the ideal route to go would probably be oblivion dmg, theres a lot of oblivion dots you can stack now:

• sloads (3% per second)
• anchorites potency script on wield soul (1.5% per second)
• anchorites potency script on soul burst (3% per 2 seconds)

so thats effectively 6% hp per second unresistable dots

you could also add knight slayer on top of that for 8% hp dmg on a heavy attack and oblivion dmg enchant which is 4.75% hp dmg if you wanted to really lean into oblivion dmg