Skill Diffrentials

KaironBlackbard · December 3

https://sites.google.com/view/ideascompilationforeso/ideas-since-11012023/skill-alterations-or-alternate-uses

After playing Warframe, as Mag, I found something they do that could improve how we do some things. Mag (and some other characters) have a skill or skills that have a Tap cast and a Hold cast.
Then I think of what they did to Nightblade.
Nightblade used to have a burst cast, and they changed it to a toggle.
My brother still treats is as burst, he's not used to toggle yet.

So I was thinking, why not return the burst as a Tap cast, and Hold the skill button to cast the toggle cast?

Same could apply to other skills as well.
I layed out a possible framework in my google site. Half might be unused, particularly the targeting ones. Auras and Self targeting would probably be the only ones affected by this.
Yes I spent all day working on this, please don't smash it too much. Please don't be toxic against it. Took me soo many hours to make.

Avran_Sylt · December 4

I hope this won’t make rotations even more complex.

But the general concept of a hold vs tap cast could be interesting (though maybe problematic with ZoS networking?)

KaironBlackbard · December 4

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

I hope this won’t make rotations even more complex.

But the general concept of a hold vs tap cast could be interesting (though maybe problematic with ZoS networking?)

Some skills already have (or had) a similar concept or concepts, just in being overhauled instead of gaining this sort of capability. Namely Nightblade's Cloak.
They've made both versions, they just need to unify as one with the Tap vs Hold castings.
Making similar for other similar skills would be neat as well.

Direct combat skills is questionable though. I did make some ideas below the primary, but they aren't really what I'm going for. Just the buffs and potential auras as toggle cast versions within the skill via hold, tap being the durational burst.

Speaking of, at least of the primary section, which skills would you look forward to getting this sort of update/secondaryCasting?
Also what's you main class or weapons?

I like theorizing.

Avran_Sylt · December 4

KaironBlackbard wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

I hope this won’t make rotations even more complex.

But the general concept of a hold vs tap cast could be interesting (though maybe problematic with ZoS networking?)

Some skills already have (or had) a similar concept or concepts, just in being overhauled instead of gaining this sort of capability. Namely Nightblade's Cloak.
They've made both versions, they just need to unify as one with the Tap vs Hold castings.
Making similar for other similar skills would be neat as well.

Direct combat skills is questionable though. I did make some ideas below the primary, but they aren't really what I'm going for. Just the buffs and potential auras as toggle cast versions within the skill via hold, tap being the durational burst.

Speaking of, at least of the primary section, which skills would you look forward to getting this sort of update/secondaryCasting?
Also what's you main class or weapons?

I like theorizing.

I play Nightblade.

So let’s talk about the tap&hold for mag’s magnetize , and compare it to your proposed Cloak tap&hold.

For Mag’s magnetize, the tap is a single-target enemy lockdown and nuke ability that plays with other parts of her kit.

The hold is an entirely different defensive ability aiming to increase her Effective HP through damage reduction.

In essence, it’s providing distinct abilities between the tap and hold.

For Nightblades cloak, tap and hold seemingly do the same thing under your suggestion.

What does this provide to the player from a gameplay perspective? It seems like needless complexity just to address a learning curve for the new change of it being a toggle.

I can’t say any of the Nightblade toggle proposals look enticing to me. They mostly just come across as now needing to be mindful to turn them off after encounters, and typically not too useful in drawn out encounters either.

KaironBlackbard · December 4

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

KaironBlackbard wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

I hope this won’t make rotations even more complex.

But the general concept of a hold vs tap cast could be interesting (though maybe problematic with ZoS networking?)

Some skills already have (or had) a similar concept or concepts, just in being overhauled instead of gaining this sort of capability. Namely Nightblade's Cloak.
They've made both versions, they just need to unify as one with the Tap vs Hold castings.
Making similar for other similar skills would be neat as well.

Direct combat skills is questionable though. I did make some ideas below the primary, but they aren't really what I'm going for. Just the buffs and potential auras as toggle cast versions within the skill via hold, tap being the durational burst.

Speaking of, at least of the primary section, which skills would you look forward to getting this sort of update/secondaryCasting?
Also what's you main class or weapons?

I like theorizing.

I play Nightblade.

So let’s talk about the tap&hold for mag’s magnetize , and compare it to your proposed Cloak tap&hold.

For Mag’s magnetize, the tap is a single-target enemy lockdown and nuke ability that plays with other parts of her kit.

The hold is an entirely different defensive ability aiming to increase her Effective HP through damage reduction.

In essence, it’s providing distinct abilities between the tap and hold.

For Nightblades cloak, tap and hold seemingly do the same thing under your suggestion.

What does this provide to the player from a gameplay perspective? It seems like needless complexity just to address a learning curve for the new change of it being a toggle.

I can’t say any of the Nightblade toggle proposals look enticing to me. They mostly just come across as now needing to be mindful to turn them off after encounters, and typically not too useful in drawn out encounters either.

Not useful in drawn out? I'd think that would be where they'd be strongest.

Avran_Sylt · December 13

KaironBlackbard wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

KaironBlackbard wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

I hope this won’t make rotations even more complex.

But the general concept of a hold vs tap cast could be interesting (though maybe problematic with ZoS networking?)

Some skills already have (or had) a similar concept or concepts, just in being overhauled instead of gaining this sort of capability. Namely Nightblade's Cloak.
They've made both versions, they just need to unify as one with the Tap vs Hold castings.
Making similar for other similar skills would be neat as well.

Direct combat skills is questionable though. I did make some ideas below the primary, but they aren't really what I'm going for. Just the buffs and potential auras as toggle cast versions within the skill via hold, tap being the durational burst.

Speaking of, at least of the primary section, which skills would you look forward to getting this sort of update/secondaryCasting?
Also what's you main class or weapons?

I like theorizing.

I play Nightblade.

So let’s talk about the tap&hold for mag’s magnetize , and compare it to your proposed Cloak tap&hold.

For Mag’s magnetize, the tap is a single-target enemy lockdown and nuke ability that plays with other parts of her kit.

The hold is an entirely different defensive ability aiming to increase her Effective HP through damage reduction.

In essence, it’s providing distinct abilities between the tap and hold.

For Nightblades cloak, tap and hold seemingly do the same thing under your suggestion.

What does this provide to the player from a gameplay perspective? It seems like needless complexity just to address a learning curve for the new change of it being a toggle.

I can’t say any of the Nightblade toggle proposals look enticing to me. They mostly just come across as now needing to be mindful to turn them off after encounters, and typically not too useful in drawn out encounters either.

Not useful in drawn out? I'd think that would be where they'd be strongest.

Fair, after coming back to this post I see that it's more about reducing recast instances in drawn out DPS phases, simplification of rotation.

Instead of needing a rotation for DoTs/buffs, you apply all your DoTs/buffs at the start, then start to spam your spammable and heavy attack when necessary to recoup resources with the increased drain, never needing to reapply the DoTs unless they're somehow removed/the boss moves out of the area.

Probably would give rise to more heavy attack builds, as now all those GCD instances spent applying DoTs can be replaced with heavy attacks to recoup the resources being drained.

Would be nice QoL but would result in more powercreep.

GrimStyx · December 13

I can't wait until Zos finally converts mana nb into garuda from warframe

But seriously, the combat and its specifics are even similar to some extent, for example, in both eso and warframe they often use abilities that are needed not for the sake of building a complex combo, but simply for the sake of maintaining, self-buffing, group buffing, with a single combination to update them in time

I don’t deny that there are warframes that can be played through hard combos, for example Lavos, but the difference is that warframe is a pve-oriented game, and pvp is practically dead, and eso is trying to unify classes for the sake of balance, and because of certain problems inherent in the foundation the game itself, which no one wants to fix. No, it’s more likely not even that, the eso developers may be trying to get away from unification, but the foundation of the game does not allow it to go too global - major, minor buffs are the same for all classes, or at least alternating between them, weaving, no cooldowns, burst, spam, self-buffs, all this is the basis of the game, and is embedded in the classes themselves. Ok, the arcanist with his burst book has finally broken through the 4th wall and can attack non-target, but this is just a drop in the ocean

KaironBlackbard · December 13

The primary issue though, is if you get silenced, there goes all your magicka based buffs.
Still not certain if DoT would do anything, unless it's an aura around you. Then again that's more debuff than DoT in most cases. Like Blood Fount / Force Siphon. Potentially Weakness to Elements also. Most likely having reduced radius also.
Would be aura, not direct targeting, kind of like a cross between permafrost and Blood Fount.
Ultimates wouldn't really have this, unless they disable ult gen while toggled/active like magma shell and have a cost per second like overload, giving them their cost over their duration, or something. Still unsure, and it could make it op, so highly doubting it would effect ults.

MincMincMinc · December 13

So let me see if I understand. You want a given skill to have BOTH the ability to tap and toggle? So for cloak if you tap it will only be activated for 3.5s and run out. If you hold the key down for 0.1s it would stay toggled.

Interesting concept and somewhat doable. However you would need to restructure every skill activation and cost structure in the game. (Very unlikely to ever happen until they do another standardization in 5 years) Basically on key down you would activate the tap cast, but then on the toggle release itd have to delete the tap version and replace it with the toggle version.

Hold chargeup skills could be interesting, however I am not sure zos has the structure to do them. A skill like dizzy would be a good use. Imagine dizzy could be a tap simple spammable. However you could hold to charge it up and get the old knockup on enemy hit.