The problem with Necromancer in 2024

The_Isatope8 · November 29

Necromancer and Templar are often said to be the worst classes in ESO and it's clear that their sibling classes are outperforming them in various ways. Necro has seen many changes since it's inception and unfortunately most of them have been for the worse. Necro needed to be changed of course, but too much was done to neuter the class over the years. I have played Necro for a while and really enjoy the class and what it's trying to bring to the table in terms of themes and utility. The problem is that it's just a little off from being great and feels clunky and ill conceived at times. This post is just to highlight some of the problems that I and many others have encountered with Necro and to bring attention to them in a concise way.

An experimental class
Necromancer has the unfortunate case of being the framework that arcanist would be built on with it's skills that can change when used in certain ways and abilities with multiple utilities built into them. The corpse mechanic crawled so that crux could run. Unfortunately, the corpse mechanic is still crawling and holding Necro back with it. In addition to the corpse mechanic, Necro is the only class that doesn't provide some kind of buff via their passives. They have access to every damage type as well, but it makes them feel disjointed to build around. Necro has a lot of interesting ideas mixed together that don't always work well together, making them feel a little unfinished.
Outdated passives
Necro and Templar share the burden of feeling old and outdated in the current meta. Templar is arguably worse off in the passive department, but Necro has some crappy ones too. A common issue is that many of them are uninspired, situational or restrictive, rather than being a core part of the class. 'Last Gasp' is a good example of the uninspired passives and is far outclassed wardens 'Maturation' passive, that increases the whole groups health. 'Curative Curse' is restrictive since it requires you to have a negative effect on you, I know that Necro can debuff themselves and that negative effects are abundant in PvP, but this direction isn't the way to make a useful healing passive. 'Near Death Experience' is situational and only makes the likelihood of healing more a little better, but this isn't actually as useful as it sounds in reality. Necro definitely feels like an experiment rather than a fully fleshed out class these days.
Sub-par sustain
Here we have yet another issue that Necro and Templar share. Necro has access to sustain passives and cost reductions via passives like 'reusable parts', 'undead confederate' and 'Death Gleaning' along with skills like 'Mortal Coil' and 'Mystic Siphon', but they pale in comparison to what other classes have in their kits. Necro also has a more complicated playstyle than other classes and requires much more timing, micro managing and dynamic rotation that makes them burn through resources quicker. Playing Necro and sustaining as a Dps or PvP build feels terrible to play since you're burning through resources and need to invest much more into sustain with enchants and sets that take away build variety.
clunky class fantasy
Necromancers in the elder scrolls aren't really normal necromancers to begin with. In the lore, a Necromancer has to bend the will of a soul that once inhabited the body they're trying to manipulate. This is why raising creatures like dragons is so rare, Necromancy is a battle of willpower as well as magic. Necromancy is also shown to have benevolent uses instead of just being straight up evil as with most other fantasy franchises. Zerith-Var encapsulates this alternative uses of necromancy perfectly when compared to a figure like Manimarco. Necromancy is supposed to be a very morally grey school of magic. The Necromancer we play as falls more in line with the evil necromancer schtick though, their skill descriptions and animations make that clear. A lot of their skills are just goofy too, instead of menacing like they should be. 'Flame Skull' and 'Boneyard' have some of the goofiest animations in the game and make necro seem like a joke. this, unfortunately, takes away from their class fantasy of being a powerful, dangerous individual. Necro also can't summon hordes of minions to do their bidding unlike their NPC counterparts, a class should always feel far above the common NPC's.
Buff cycling
Necro's timing and rotations feel clunky due to how short or long their durations are and this issue leads to them constantly having to reapply buffs to themselves to stay in a fight. This is especially noticeable in PvP where most of a Necro's time is spent buffing up before doing a burst rotation and then buffing up again. Necro should be intricate to play, but ends up feeling unpleasant. Important buffs are also on skills that aren't nearly as universally useful as the skills on the other classes and are only really useful in PvE. Their important class skills that provide their necessary combat buffs just aren't useful enough to outdo the competition so playing a Necro in PvP feels more like you're playing a collection of scribing/ guild skills rather than an actual Necromancer. This issue leads to a disjointed character that needs to put in more work for less payoff.
Jack of Some Trades, Master of None
Necromancer is the only class in game that has every normal damage type in their base kit, but this makes them feel disjointed rather than versatile. They make good tanks and decent healers, but their dps suffers in PvP and PvE. They need a lot more effort to pull off in addition to their other challenges. You need to work harder than other classes for the same results in many cases.
Corpse Gimmick
Corpses seem like a great mechanic for Necromancer, but the mechanic is also one of Necro's greatest weaknesses. I have previously stated that Necro the corpse mechanic was the framework for Arcanist's crux mechanic. The difference is that crux is well designed, predictable and intuitive to use while corpses are too random and infrequent. This issue isn't of much concern for tanks and healers, but dps and especially PvP Necro builds know the pain of having a lot of their power and survivability be locked behind something that doesn't work half the time.
Necro is a "Debuff" Class
Necro was originally pitched as a debuffer that specializes in weakening enemies rather than empowering allies. While they have access to some of the best debuffs in game with both variants of Vulnerability, the easiest access to off-balance and a variety of status effects, these things aren't as good as they once were and every class can now have relatively easy access to the same stuff. Necro is no longer as useful as they once were and other classes are more desireable because they can give these debuffs and buff the group simultaeniously, which Necro can't do very well. If the devs really want Necro to be the debuff class then Necro should have more unique debuffs built into their like DK's fire breath.

With the latest patch notes, it's clear that the devs are at least trying to work on the class, even if it is only a little bit for now. I hope that Necro will receive a rework some day to address its numerous issues. If I have missed anything, feel free to comment your gripes with Necro as I would like to hear what else needs to be addressed regarding Necromancer.

Taril · November 29

The_Isatope8 wrote: »

[*]clunky class fantasy
Necromancers in the elder scrolls aren't really normal necromancers to begin with. In the lore, a Necromancer has to bend the will of a soul that once inhabited the body they're trying to manipulate.

Not entirely. Things like Flesh Atronach's seemingly just require a mass of flesh to be held together by magic.

In addition, corpses of targets that have had their soul drained can still be raised in many TES games.

The_Isatope8 wrote: »

Zerith-Var encapsulates this alternative uses of necromancy perfectly when compared to a figure like Manimarco.

Honestly, what Zerith-var does is less Necromancy and more Soul Magic.

Given that his schtick is all about manipulating souls - Bringing them forward to speak to, or guiding them to Azura's realm.

Thus it's more in line with our own "Soul Magic" line, where we directly manipulate souls (Baseline we use it to set them on fire or succ them into a gem. But with Soul Burst and Wield Soul we can create beneficial effects from soul manipulation).

Rather than with "Necromancy" which has more to do with manipulating the corporeal aspects of things (Turning corpses into puppets, raising skeletons/zombies, creating bone/flesh monstrosities)

The_Isatope8 wrote: »

[*]Corpse Gimmick
Corpses seem like a great mechanic for Necromancer, but the mechanic is also one of Necro's greatest weaknesses. I have previously stated that Necro the corpse mechanic was the framework for Arcanist's crux mechanic. The difference is that crux is well designed, predictable and intuitive to use while corpses are too random and infrequent.

I'd argue against Crux being "Well designed".

It too, is a gimmick. One that makes the class overall worse.

Not only due to how their passives are designed (Unlike other classes, they're less general boosts and more focused on utilizing Crux - Which gimps the class when using non-class abilities, notably for things like Werewolves that cannot use non-Werewolf skills). An aspect that is shared with Necromancer too (With many of their passives focused around the Corpse mechanic)

But it also makes their Morphs janky and horrible, because instead of picking a morph you want you have to pick which one handles Crux the way you need (See: MagArc DPS not being a thing because Tentacular Dread consumes Crux).

The only benefit that Crux has over Corpses is that it's more consistently generated (Especially with Banner Bearer scribed skill) which doesn't make it "Well designed" it just means it's "Not as big of a dumpster fire design"

What Arcanist does well in its design, is its use of "Highest/Lowest max resource" costs to create more flexibility in builds (Undermined entirely by Abyssal Impact and its morphs lmao)

StarOfElyon · November 29

The_Isatope8 wrote: »

Necromancer and Templar are often said to be the worst classes in ESO and it's clear that their sibling classes are outperforming them in various ways. Necro has seen many changes since it's inception and unfortunately most of them have been for the worse. Necro needed to be changed of course, but too much was done to neuter the class over the years. I have played Necro for a while and really enjoy the class and what it's trying to bring to the table in terms of themes and utility. The problem is that it's just a little off from being great and feels clunky and ill conceived at times. This post is just to highlight some of the problems that I and many others have encountered with Necro and to bring attention to them in a concise way.
An experimental class
Necromancer has the unfortunate case of being the framework that arcanist would be built on with it's skills that can change when used in certain ways and abilities with multiple utilities built into them. The corpse mechanic crawled so that crux could run. Unfortunately, the corpse mechanic is still crawling and holding Necro back with it. In addition to the corpse mechanic, Necro is the only class that doesn't provide some kind of buff via their passives. They have access to every damage type as well, but it makes them feel disjointed to build around. Necro has a lot of interesting ideas mixed together that don't always work well together, making them feel a little unfinished.

Outdated passives
Necro and Templar share the burden of feeling old and outdated in the current meta. Templar is arguably worse off in the passive department, but Necro has some crappy ones too. A common issue is that many of them are uninspired, situational or restrictive, rather than being a core part of the class. 'Last Gasp' is a good example of the uninspired passives and is far outclassed wardens 'Maturation' passive, that increases the whole groups health. 'Curative Curse' is restrictive since it requires you to have a negative effect on you, I know that Necro can debuff themselves and that negative effects are abundant in PvP, but this direction isn't the way to make a useful healing passive. 'Near Death Experience' is situational and only makes the likelihood of healing more a little better, but this isn't actually as useful as it sounds in reality. Necro definitely feels like an experiment rather than a fully fleshed out class these days.

Sub-par sustain
Here we have yet another issue that Necro and Templar share. Necro has access to sustain passives and cost reductions via passives like 'reusable parts', 'undead confederate' and 'Death Gleaning' along with skills like 'Mortal Coil' and 'Mystic Siphon', but they pale in comparison to what other classes have in their kits. Necro also has a more complicated playstyle than other classes and requires much more timing, micro managing and dynamic rotation that makes them burn through resources quicker. Playing Necro and sustaining as a Dps or PvP build feels terrible to play since you're burning through resources and need to invest much more into sustain with enchants and sets that take away build variety.

clunky class fantasy
Necromancers in the elder scrolls aren't really normal necromancers to begin with. In the lore, a Necromancer has to bend the will of a soul that once inhabited the body they're trying to manipulate. This is why raising creatures like dragons is so rare, Necromancy is a battle of willpower as well as magic. Necromancy is also shown to have benevolent uses instead of just being straight up evil as with most other fantasy franchises. Zerith-Var encapsulates this alternative uses of necromancy perfectly when compared to a figure like Manimarco. Necromancy is supposed to be a very morally grey school of magic. The Necromancer we play as falls more in line with the evil necromancer schtick though, their skill descriptions and animations make that clear. A lot of their skills are just goofy too, instead of menacing like they should be. 'Flame Skull' and 'Boneyard' have some of the goofiest animations in the game and make necro seem like a joke. this, unfortunately, takes away from their class fantasy of being a powerful, dangerous individual. Necro also can't summon hordes of minions to do their bidding unlike their NPC counterparts, a class should always feel far above the common NPC's.

Buff cycling
Necro's timing and rotations feel clunky due to how short or long their durations are and this issue leads to them constantly having to reapply buffs to themselves to stay in a fight. This is especially noticeable in PvP where most of a Necro's time is spent buffing up before doing a burst rotation and then buffing up again. Necro should be intricate to play, but ends up feeling unpleasant. Important buffs are also on skills that aren't nearly as universally useful as the skills on the other classes and are only really useful in PvE. Their important class skills that provide their necessary combat buffs just aren't useful enough to outdo the competition so playing a Necro in PvP feels more like you're playing a collection of scribing/ guild skills rather than an actual Necromancer. This issue leads to a disjointed character that needs to put in more work for less payoff.

Jack of Some Trades, Master of None
Necromancer is the only class in game that has every normal damage type in their base kit, but this makes them feel disjointed rather than versatile. They make good tanks and decent healers, but their dps suffers in PvP and PvE. They need a lot more effort to pull off in addition to their other challenges. You need to work harder than other classes for the same results in many cases.

Corpse Gimmick
Corpses seem like a great mechanic for Necromancer, but the mechanic is also one of Necro's greatest weaknesses. I have previously stated that Necro the corpse mechanic was the framework for Arcanist's crux mechanic. The difference is that crux is well designed, predictable and intuitive to use while corpses are too random and infrequent. This issue isn't of much concern for tanks and healers, but dps and especially PvP Necro builds know the pain of having a lot of their power and survivability be locked behind something that doesn't work half the time.

Necro is a "Debuff" Class
Necro was originally pitched as a debuffer that specializes in weakening enemies rather than empowering allies. While they have access to some of the best debuffs in game with both variants of Vulnerability, the easiest access to off-balance and a variety of status effects, these things aren't as good as they once were and every class can now have relatively easy access to the same stuff. Necro is no longer as useful as they once were and other classes are more desireable because they can give these debuffs and buff the group simultaeniously, which Necro can't do very well. If the devs really want Necro to be the debuff class then Necro should have more unique debuffs built into their like DK's fire breath.

With the latest patch notes, it's clear that the devs are at least trying to work on the class, even if it is only a little bit for now. I hope that Necro will receive a rework some day to address its numerous issues. If I have missed anything, feel free to comment your gripes with Necro as I would like to hear what else needs to be addressed regarding Necromancer.

Yeah much of this has been said again and again but thanks for adding another voice to the choir.

StarOfElyon wrote: »

This is an updated version of my Necro ideas thread from 2023 (https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/633137/suggestions-for-necromancer-changes) with adjustments accounting for the Update 43 patch notes.

Death Scythe: (both morphs)
Deals more damage based on the enemy's missing health.
- Hungry Scythe: should also apply life steal to all enemies hit, in addition to healing the caster over time.

Shocking Siphon: The AOE should remain on the ground even if the tether breaks early. (Increase the radius size too)
- Mystic Siphon: the increased Health, Magicka, and Stamina Recovery persists even if the tether breaks early.

Flame Skull:
- Riccochet Skull/Venom Skull: applies burning/poisoned status effects. (Increase travel speed)

Bone Totem: summons an effigy of bones up to 28 meters away. After 1 second, the totem begins fearing nearby enemies every 2 seconds, causing them to cower in place for 4 seconds. (Changed to allow both morphs to be targeted)

Restoring Tether: the effects persist on the player character even if the tether breaks early.

Grave Grasp:
- Empowering Grasp: Summon three patches of skeletal claws from the ground in front of you dealing 898 frost damage. Enemies in the first area are stunned for 3 seconds, immobilized in the second area for 4 seconds, and snared in the final area by 50% for 5 seconds. Each patch applies Minor Maim to enemies hit for 10 seconds, reducing their damage done by 5%. Each area applies Minor Maim to enemies, Empower to your allies, and enhances the damage and healing of your summons by 1000. Each effect lasts 10 seconds.

- Ghostly Embrace: Summon three patches of skeletal claws from the ground in front of you, dealing 1742 Frost Damage and an additional 1635 Frost Damage over 5 seconds. The initial hit applies the Chilled status effect. The final area creates a corpse if at least one enemy was hit.

Expunge: reduces the cost of all your abilities by 3% while slotted on either bar.

Bitter Harvest: when slotted on either bar, reduces your damage taken by 3%.

Boneyard increase the radius to 8 meters.

PASSIVES:
Corpse Consumption: When you consume a corpse, you generate 10 Ultimate. This effect can occur once every 16 seconds. You also gain Major Savagery and Prophecy for 20 seconds, increasing your Weapon and Spell Critical rating by 2629.

Undead Confederate: While you have a Sacrificial Bones, Skeletal Mage, or Spirit Mender active, your Health, Magicka, and Stamina Recovery is increased by 200. You also gain Major Brutality and Sorcery for 20 seconds, increasing your Weapon and Spell Damage by 20%.

ULTIMATES:
Frozen Colossus: Unleash a decayed Flesh Colossus to pulverize enemies in the area. The Colossus smashes the ground three times over 3 seconds. Dealing damage applies Major Vulnerability to any enemy hit for 12 seconds.
- Glacial Colossus: does frost damage and stuns enemies on the second hit instead of the third.
- Pestilent Colossus: smashes the ground only once and does disease damage. Afflicts enemies with a pestilence that does damage over time.

Skoomah · November 29

I’m kicking ass with my necromancer all the time. I use the character as the best turtle buster in the game with colossus ultimate bombs and solid ranged pressure damage. Just learn to play the class and adjust to how it’s been updated over time. It has its niche just like every other class. Stop being lazy and theorycraft.

francesinhalover · November 29

"Necromancer and Templar are often said to be the worst classes in ESO"

Saying this doesn't really work that well....

They are the worse classes where? dps? pvp? healing? tanking? where exactly are they the worse?

like say...If you mean dps, warden has had some low numbers because in part it's a good class for pvp.

Do people mean that necromancer and templar just don't feel good to play or look that good? I would agree with that. I'm not a fan of templar jabs appearance. It's a nighthollow staff.
And while i do like most of the visuals on necromancer (the class could use some more purple here and there) i'm not a fan of how it feels to play or using blastbones every 2-3 skills. I like smooth rotations. Necromancer doesn't give me that.
Plus i like my dots to all be 20 secs. Boneyard being 10 honestly just makes everything harder for me.

Renato90085 · November 29

I think only dk and arc not have outdated passives...

LukosCreyden · December 1

Still waiting for them to turn the blastbones skill collection into something functional and fun.

Aldoss · December 1

Necro PvP main here. Here's my updated opinion on cro:

I'm content with it.

That doesn't mean that I don't think the class is finished. It's been hammered so hard over the last dozen updates that it really needs a stronger pass. However, it's definitely not the "worst", in my opinion, save for one caveat: Corpseburster.

Corpseburster single handedly saved cro for me, and while I'm appreciative that the devs thought of it and were able to get something in the game that could really benefit cro, I'm ultimately disappointed that I'm relying on a set to enjoy my cro again.

I'm still pissed about Stalking and I'm even more frustrated that they haven't touched GLS after openly admitting that it was a bad skill. Yet, the Intensive Mender change was a welcome adjustment as was the new Ghostly Embrace which I'm absolutely loving this patch.

I hate that cro has to rely on sets to really stay viable. DKs and Wardens with torc are still monsters at single target dmg and survivability, simply because they're tool kits are so robust.

Slight aside, I was gifted Gold Road for my birthday by a friend a few days ago (since I haven't given ZOS a dime since U35) and started leveling an Arc. I actually hate the crux mechanic and I think it's because I've actually come to love the corpse gen potential of the new U44 cro. I can run Mender over Guardian to help out my team more and profit from one of the best corpse gen tools in the kit. I can run skeletal arc to get my brutality buff and corpse gen. Obviously BB, but now also Ghostly Embrace which I've really fallen in love with. I can easily generate 5-6 corpses in a matter of seconds just rebuffing myself, whereas an arc can only hold onto 3. I'm only lvl 25, so maybe this will change, but I was just surprised at how much I didn't like cruxes and wanted my corpses back.

I'll reiterate that I hate that I feel like I have to rely on Dark Convergence and CorpseBurster to be relevant. CB gave me an out from the true one-trick-pony balorgh/DC/VD bomber build. CB is extremely reliable and constant. I honestly wish CB wasn't a thing and this was just somehow baked into detonating siphon. I also wish cro's aoe potential wasn't locked behind a pull set like DC, rush, or vate shield, but I guess that's just the nature of the beast right now.

Team vs Team plus everything I've mentioned here has made me love playing cro again. I'm sure this might be different in other situations, but for BGs, I'm really loving it (when the games actually happen... Which is still barely 50% of the time... )

Deimus · December 1

The_Isatope8 wrote: »

[*]Sub-par sustain
Here we have yet another issue that Necro and Templar share. Necro has access to sustain passives and cost reductions via passives like 'reusable parts', 'undead confederate' and 'Death Gleaning' along with skills like 'Mortal Coil' and 'Mystic Siphon', but they pale in comparison to what other classes have in their kits. Necro also has a more complicated playstyle than other classes and requires much more timing, micro managing and dynamic rotation that makes them burn through resources quicker. Playing Necro and sustaining as a Dps or PvP build feels terrible to play since you're burning through resources and need to invest much more into sustain with enchants and sets that take away build variety.

It'd be nice if they reworked Undead Confederate to give recovery for each minion you have active. Lower the value to 150 for each active minion so you could get a total of 450 recovery if you fully utilize the class kit. For Death Gleaning it's good when there are a lot of mobs, but for boss fights and pvp it's not very useful. It would be nice if you got a percentage of the resources for consuming a corpse they could add +222 mag/stam whenever you consume a corpse tying it to using the class mechanics. Consuming corpses by itself doesn't feel very impactful so adding recovery and 50 weapon and spell damage per corpse consumed for 5 seconds with a limit of 6 corpses or boosting the percent value of Rapid Rot by 2% per corpse with a limit of 5 corpses could be a way to replicate that powerful Necromancer feel via the class passives.

Last Gasp could use a value boost they could double it(would still be kinda meh), add a unique buff or debuff to it that is activated by playing into the class mechanic of corpses, or they can try and get creative with it and rework it completely.

The_Isatope8 wrote: »

[*]Jack of Some Trades, Master of None
Necromancer is the only class in game that has every normal damage type in their base kit, but this makes them feel disjointed rather than versatile. They make good tanks and decent healers, but their dps suffers in PvP and PvE. They need a lot more effort to pull off in addition to their other challenges. You need to work harder than other classes for the same results in many cases.

The dev comments on the new tutorial from the last patch and the damage type change to Ghostly Embrace might indicate that they are aiming to narrow the focus for the class damage types.

The_Isatope8 wrote: »

[*]Corpse Gimmick
Corpses seem like a great mechanic for Necromancer, but the mechanic is also one of Necro's greatest weaknesses. I have previously stated that Necro the corpse mechanic was the framework for Arcanist's crux mechanic. The difference is that crux is well designed, predictable and intuitive to use while corpses are too random and infrequent. This issue isn't of much concern for tanks and healers, but dps and especially PvP Necro builds know the pain of having a lot of their power and survivability be locked behind something that doesn't work half the time.

The corpse mechanic should be more rewarding and after trying the Arcanist class it does feels like the trial run for the crux system. The crux system is much more streamlined which isn't necessary a good thing or makes it better, but the power behind it feels much more impactful. Each Arcanist tree has a passive that utilizes the generation and usage of crux while Necro only has 1 passive that interacts with corpse system which is on a 16 second cooldown.

Before U43 any build on a nonsupport Necro felt best using mainly generic skills and avoiding the corpse system leading to no class identity outside of Stalking Blastbones which was taken away. They've made it clear they don't want to go the traditional necromancer route with a horde of minions so they should lean into their mechanic and mimic the powerful feeling a master of an army of the dead would have with the corpse system. Our version of a necromancer craves souls and the essence of death so consuming more corpses should mean you hit harder and fight longer. If the minion master has to do most of the work they should feel strong.

That's also why the class sets are used so often because they make the corpse mechanic actually feel like a benefit instead of a hindrance. Corpseburster brings the damage which could've already been baked into the class. Imagine if a passive effect of consuming corpses dealt slight damage and inflicted a unique debuff DoT to all targets hit. While Nobility in Decay addresses the issues with the tethers and makes them viable in PvP. Using the sets doesn't just feel like a flavor enhancement to the class as it should be, but like an attempt to fill in an incomplete product. That's not a slight on the sets either, they truly make the class feel so much better that those flaws become more glaring when not using them.

The class is in a much better place now than earlier this year, I actually think the ability timers are in a good place just wish we got the "on either bar" treatment. The fact that it still isn't up to par after U43 shows just how far behind and neglected the class was. The next update should hopefully come with more good changes and maybe a new rework of GLS. Threads like these should keep them on the right path *fingers crossed*

SPlDER5 · December 12

I just want someone from the combat team to tell us what their "class vision" is for necro.

StarOfElyon · December 13

Aldoss wrote: »

...
I'll reiterate that I hate that I feel like I have to rely on Dark Convergence and CorpseBurster to be relevant. CB gave me an out from the true one-trick-pony balorgh/DC/VD bomber build. CB is extremely reliable and constant. I honestly wish CB wasn't a thing and this was just somehow baked into detonating siphon. I also wish cro's aoe potential wasn't locked behind a pull set like DC, rush, or vate shield, but I guess that's just the nature of the beast right now...

It should have been. Imagine if it was just part of the skill instead of being a set bonus. That almost seems like it makes too much sense.