Can we just get a casual PvP queue for PvE players?

Scarefish · December 4

I feel like I have to queue for PvP for game completion even though I find it to be an imba mess with broken matchmaking and no class/scribing skill balance. Crowd Control builds and tank builds are unreachable without the occasional dragon leap ultimate, and tanks are untouchable if they've min-maxed their builds. People insist that Battlegrounds is beginner-friendly due to no CP, but that hardly matters when the matchmaking pits a bunch of healers against a well-rounded team with optimized builds. It seems like maybe a quarter of the players in solo queue, like me, are just PvE players that obviously are going to drag their teams down because they feel a need to do PvP for the exclusive items as well as getting daily XP or endeavours.

What I'd really like is a game mode where everything is set. Not just CP. You get assigned stats. No personalized sets. Just your skills and your weapon types. This could allow the game to be more heavily railroaded, like League of Legends, rather than it being a mess where some things are just "the meta" and everything else is completely steamrolled by "meta" builds and classes.

loosej · December 4

Interesting idea, but I don't think it would necessarily become the "casual" queue, it would still need proper matchmaking. Some sweaty players would prefer this game mode as well, since it would be a good way to measure a player's skill (and/or latency) compared to others, or to avoid annoyances like roa and the tank meta themselves.

Thumbless_Bot · December 4

8v8 is the casual queue, Or it is supposed to be at least.

Also, your mmr, or lack of mmr factors into your match making, or it is supposed to at least.

It doesn't appear that mmr is working in my experience. In 4v4 i get queued with a fellow sweaty or two and the rest are people who are less experienced. This adds to the imbalance that already is inherent in this two team format and isn't fun for anyone except those who enjoy repeatedly beating up on less experienced players, but don't hate those players, hate the game.

I recommend sticking with 8v8 solo until zos fixes mmr because you are slightly less likely to repeatedly get your face melted off there... slightly... and, who knows, you might even capture a relic or two and/or get a kill or two. Then you'll be hooked like the rest of us 😌

Cooperharley · December 4

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

8v8 is the casual queue, Or it is supposed to be at least.

Also, your mmr, or lack of mmr factors into your match making, or it is supposed to at least.

It doesn't appear that mmr is working in my experience. In 4v4 i get queued with a fellow sweaty or two and the rest are people who are less experienced. This adds to the imbalance that already is inherent in this two team format and isn't fun for anyone except those who enjoy repeatedly beating up on less experienced players, but don't hate those players, hate the game.

I recommend sticking with 8v8 solo until zos fixes mmr because you are slightly less likely to repeatedly get your face melted off there... slightly...

8v8 has tons of sweats

With the spawn issues in 4v4 more of my more serious buddies just place 8v8. More combat and more chaos lol. It’s not casual at all.

There’s also no real competitiveness in BGs anyways. There’s no seasonal rankings or anything that anyone takes seriously because there’s no rewards for being good.

valenwood_vegan · December 4

Yeah the idea that there were actually going to be "casual" BG's without more fundamental changes was always laughable.

The barriers to entry and skill gap are just way too high for many players at this point. A more casual mode as suggested by OP, where players can just quickly jump in and pvp without the whole theory-crafting, gear farming, constant meta-chasing element, might actually get some of these folks (like me) to spend some time trying pvp... some may actually grow to enjoy it and move on to more competitive modes.

Unfortunately, I don't think there's much interest in such a thing among the devs or the pvp community... which I do understand... resources are limited and many want long overdue updates for cyrodiil and many other fixes for the existing pvp systems. But without some more casual way for people to "easily" pvp just for fun, without being farmed by ballgroups and crushed by this week's meta builds to the point of rage quitting, it's going to continue to fail to attract many new players and remain a bit of a niche activity, imo.

Thumbless_Bot · December 4

Cooperharley wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

8v8 is the casual queue, Or it is supposed to be at least.

Also, your mmr, or lack of mmr factors into your match making, or it is supposed to at least.

It doesn't appear that mmr is working in my experience. In 4v4 i get queued with a fellow sweaty or two and the rest are people who are less experienced. This adds to the imbalance that already is inherent in this two team format and isn't fun for anyone except those who enjoy repeatedly beating up on less experienced players, but don't hate those players, hate the game.

I recommend sticking with 8v8 solo until zos fixes mmr because you are slightly less likely to repeatedly get your face melted off there... slightly...

8v8 has tons of sweats

With the spawn issues in 4v4 more of my more serious buddies just place 8v8. More combat and more chaos lol. It’s not casual at all.

There’s also no real competitiveness in BGs anyways. There’s no seasonal rankings or anything that anyone takes seriously because there’s no rewards for being good.

Agree with everything you said 130%. That's why I tried to emphasize slightly. There are enough threads on here about how cringe/terrible/unplayable bgs have become with this new format, so I was just trying to be helpful.

Also, it's not like bgs were perfect before. They had their issues, but everything that was wrong with them is so much clearer now in this new format, and there are a whole host of new problems NOT related to queueing/forfeiting/etc. That just can't be fixed.

bladenick · December 8

That what the previous 4v4v4 aim at.... it also lopsided. but we get 3 team whatever... there alway middle ground between lose and win.

For now 2 side PVP, the golden puisuit push the 18K hp PVEer in to Solo 4v4... it mess, the result is the team which get less PVEer will win. there no middle ground once lopsided.

INM · December 8

Because there won't be people who would use it for their benefit, like random normals? Right? Mind you, even with equalized builds, more skilled players would faceroll clueless players.

kiwi_tea · December 8

Scarefish wrote: »

I feel like I have to queue for PvP for game completion even though I find it to be an imba mess with broken matchmaking and no class/scribing skill balance. Crowd Control builds and tank builds are unreachable without the occasional dragon leap ultimate, and tanks are untouchable if they've min-maxed their builds. People insist that Battlegrounds is beginner-friendly due to no CP, but that hardly matters when the matchmaking pits a bunch of healers against a well-rounded team with optimized builds. It seems like maybe a quarter of the players in solo queue, like me, are just PvE players that obviously are going to drag their teams down because they feel a need to do PvP for the exclusive items as well as getting daily XP or endeavours.

What I'd really like is a game mode where everything is set. Not just CP. You get assigned stats. No personalized sets. Just your skills and your weapon types. This could allow the game to be more heavily railroaded, like League of Legends, rather than it being a mess where some things are just "the meta" and everything else is completely steamrolled by "meta" builds and classes.

It hurts the overall "feel" of PVP that so many PVE players are queuing, because you end up praying and hoping you'll get lucky and not have any - but there are just so many in the queues.

The problem with a separate casual queue is that some very... ...insecure... ...people in the PVP community would immediately begin abusing it.

The nasty part of PVP is that some players who can't quite cut it against good players end up deliberately seeking out and massacring non-PVPers and complete newbies solely so that they can feel like they're good at PVP. They will go out of their way to do so. They will re-roll and re-equip endless new underleveled toons to do so. A casual queue would, unfortunately, attract *exactly* the kinds of PVPers who are most destructive to new and learning players, and to the reputation of PVP gaming as a whole.

I think it would be even less fun for PVErs than the current situation.

I strongly encourage you - instead of queuing in and identifying as "I play PVE" - to learn to PVP, and to make a simple PVP build on Armory or Dressing Room. I can even help you do it if you'd like. You will have more fun in the longer run, and the PVPers you play with will have more fun too.

johnJrant · December 8

kiwi_tea wrote: »

I strongly encourage you - instead of queuing in and identifying as "I play PVE" - to learn to PVP, and to make a simple PVP build on Armory or Dressing Room. I can even help you do it if you'd like. You will have more fun in the longer run, and the PVPers you play with will have more fun too.

This is a great offer. and offer to help. I will also be happy to help if it improves the quality of pvp.

I admit that many pvp players are reluctant to share builds and experiences. But you all dress properly for pve content, so you can also for pvp.
I even agree that BG needs more rules than it has. But it won't make them more casual. you will face the same problems as now. The only way is to learn the basics and get dressed properly. creating a competitive build does not require a lot of gold or farming you can use craft and overland set. and one pvp bild does not take up so much space in the bag. start with more tank builds with less damage and in a few months you will be running confidently with 25-30K hp and big damage. And in the end it will be much more fun than pve experience. More then you all in gild with els pve dudes, so get in group and go toghether or go aloun in same time and see ech other on BG. I realy dont understand why you find pve more intresting.
But you come on BG with 17-20k hp, with damage from pve, in pve treits, run from battele and drop youre group or loose attak under coloses then tell how pvp badley. or even worse, you start complaining about harassment after told that you are doing complete crap and thus you will not win. Always, even in 4x4 battles, one of the players in your team will not be a beginner. Ask in the chat where you want to run and what to do. Identify the leader and don't scatter to different ends of the map. If you see a fight, join it. Don't stand on the spawn. Don't be afraid to die, it's going to happen anyway.
I understand that this contradicts the modern hysteria on comfort and safety. But this problem can only be solved if you step out of your comfort zone and try to dominate.

johnJrant · December 8

I have 6 sets now in my bag just for BG. [snip] and still it doesn't bother you in any way. Why PVE players cant carry one pvp kit in their bag? with the bunch of addons that are available, you can quickly change clothes right on the spawn. I sometimes change bild right during the match. It's absolutely not difficult.

[edited for bashing]

Soarora · December 8

If you have a good PvE build, you can just use it in PvP and do alright. People cringe at my lack of health on DPS but are also confused by my sheer damage. My tanks aren’t very tanky but have utility that helps us win. I updated my PvE builds based on what I was seeing members of my class do in PvP.

johnJrant · December 8

Soarora wrote: »

If you have a good PvE build, you can just use it in PvP and do alright. People cringe at my lack of health on DPS but are also confused by my sheer damage. My tanks aren’t very tanky but have utility that helps us win. I updated my PvE builds based on what I was seeing members of my class do in PvP.

Well, if it's not a secret, what kind of maximum damage did you inflict per CM on BG per spell and how much HP are we talking about?

ZOS_Hadeostry · December 8

Greetings,

After removing some unnecessary back and forth from this thread, we would like everyone to keep posts on the subject at hand, civil, and constructive.

If there may be any questions in regards to the rules, please feel free to review them here

Soarora · December 8

johnJrant wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

If you have a good PvE build, you can just use it in PvP and do alright. People cringe at my lack of health on DPS but are also confused by my sheer damage. My tanks aren’t very tanky but have utility that helps us win. I updated my PvE builds based on what I was seeing members of my class do in PvP.

Well, if it's not a secret, what kind of maximum damage did you inflict per CM on BG per spell and how much HP are we talking about?

I'm not sure how I would get you how much damage I do on players, I just know I'm able to burst down tanks and several people have commented on my damage. As for health, I don't have any attributes or glyphs or anything for health, just witchmother's brew. I'm certainly not invincible, but I'm a warden so things like crystalized slab and bird of prey help me a lot.

johnJrant · December 9

Soarora wrote: »

I'm not sure how I would get you how much damage I do on players, I just know I'm able to burst down tanks and several people have commented on my damage. As for health, I don't have any attributes or glyphs or anything for health, just witchmother's brew. I'm certainly not invincible, but I'm a warden so things like crystalized slab and bird of prey help me a lot.

Open Combatt Metrics and can look. the setting in the menu only needs to be done to work in PVP zones. According to the information about the absence of glyphs and the presence of the mother witch, it is difficult to determine exactly how much health you have, even after understanding the class) but let's assume that 20k. I absolutely believe that Sorka with 20k hp can show good results given skillful use.
But let's do the math. I will take damage indicators for the builds prepared for BG or the maximum damage that has ever flown into me.
So NB - Concealed Weapon/Rapid Strikes/scribing - 9k / Incapacitating Strike/Merciless Resolve - 12-15k
Sorc - cristal - 9k
DK - dont remember now
Necr (my bild) - Blighted Blastbones - 8-11k / scribing - 5-7k / colosus - 7-8k x 3 / all from time out damage 1-3k tik / set 3-4k

Let's imagine the situation that you were hit by a nunatak and a dark Convergence at the same time. since you're a sorc, you still have a chance to make a strik in time. But for the experiment, let's imagine that you are not a sorc and/or did not have time to make a strik. lets math: necr colosus one hit - 7k, necr scribing - 5k, necr set 3k, necr sceleton - 8k - heare you dead. and all that hapends in 3-4 sec. So you be killed by sup aoe and other group can focus damage on youre group. But if you had 5k HP more and resists, then you still can't survive this, but there will be more chances. In general, I mean that more durable builds do not lose so much damage that there would be at least some sense in walking thin. I doubt you can do much more damage. But we can find out more precisely if you look at your CM. Then it will be possible to say exactly how much it is advisable to walk so thin. it turns out that you need to compensate for the 2-3k burst of damage from the numbers that I wrote to compensate for the difference in protection.

MincMincMinc · December 10

Scarefish wrote: »

I feel like I have to queue for PvP for game completion even though I find it to be an imba mess with broken matchmaking and no class/scribing skill balance. Crowd Control builds and tank builds are unreachable without the occasional dragon leap ultimate, and tanks are untouchable if they've min-maxed their builds. People insist that Battlegrounds is beginner-friendly due to no CP, but that hardly matters when the matchmaking pits a bunch of healers against a well-rounded team with optimized builds. It seems like maybe a quarter of the players in solo queue, like me, are just PvE players that obviously are going to drag their teams down because they feel a need to do PvP for the exclusive items as well as getting daily XP or endeavours.

What I'd really like is a game mode where everything is set. Not just CP. You get assigned stats. No personalized sets. Just your skills and your weapon types. This could allow the game to be more heavily railroaded, like League of Legends, rather than it being a mess where some things are just "the meta" and everything else is completely steamrolled by "meta" builds and classes.

With the current mmr scheme, how it works is as you play, you climb the ladder. So on a toon's first 10 matches or so, you will be considered a new player by the system. Quarterly this has been restarted and after a patch, everyone gets reset again.

IMO the dailies should not be guaranteed for players not even attempting to be competitive. I'm sorry, but the participation trophy incentive does more harm than good. The only reason we probably got the BG update was because the daily bg matches bring in hundreds of pve farmers who afk during matches. (equivalent to me going into a dungeon and speed running it, pulling every mob.) I am certain that the board of directors asked for player numbers and it showed that bgs 10x cyrodil population solely because of its daily afk farm.

Your second paragraph about assigned stats is basically how the old game used to be. You would farm gear that gives stats which are balanced against each other. So inevitably everyone had the "same" stats. Your real issue is that ESO lost its balance of Gear = stats to boost your actions.......... and now it is Gear = effects that do actions for you. Crazy overdeveloped sets are inevitable in a game like eso where the sets are effectively a trading card game. Look at any game like Yugioh and compare the early day cards against modern day releases.

But really, just go craft some purple gear and gold weapons...... you can be competitive on any class by making clever alch + shattered fate5x + bloodspawn. You just wont have dlc proc sets playing the game for you. Instead you will learn how to actually play the game.

johnJrant · December 11

As a solution to this problem. Namely, the best adaptation of beginners and pve players to BG. I suggest that experienced players assemble competitive, but not difficult to farm assemblies for BG and publish them on Esohub, for example. under one name for example "BG esy in .... (Necr-M#)". Perhaps someone will create a thread on the forum for their discussion and edits. Well, beginners and pve players should watch them, choose which one they like and most importantly dress it on BG.

Here are the build criteria that I take for myself:
1. Accessibility (crafting and everything that can be bought in the store) can be original dungeons and popular myths with an alternative option.
2. Gameplay through active attack/defense.
3. Using the advantages of the class.
4. Only tenacious attacking builds.
5. Minimum of prog sets.
6. Everything seems to be fine, but maybe someone else will come up with something.

In such builds and desire, beginners will be able to learn all the basics of BG, adjust the build for themselves and after a while assemble their own which will destroy everyone and everything. Incinerate. To dominate and conquer.

I made some examples for Necromancer and varden. I'll do it on the NB a little later.
Accordingly, I invite experienced players to join and post their options, and newcomers to watch and dress up.

https://eso-hub.com/en/builds/jhon777doe/9db086cb-e58a-4be9-8218-18174fe5bb0a/bg-esy-in-necr-m1
https://eso-hub.com/en/builds/jhon777doe/9db0a6dd-9d43-49b6-b03e-0c34ad2f9b33/bg-esy-in-warden-m1

CrazyKitty · December 11

Scarefish wrote: »

I feel like I have to queue for PvP for game completion even though I find it to be an imba mess with broken matchmaking and no class/scribing skill balance. Crowd Control builds and tank builds are unreachable without the occasional dragon leap ultimate, and tanks are untouchable if they've min-maxed their builds. People insist that Battlegrounds is beginner-friendly due to no CP, but that hardly matters when the matchmaking pits a bunch of healers against a well-rounded team with optimized builds. It seems like maybe a quarter of the players in solo queue, like me, are just PvE players that obviously are going to drag their teams down because they feel a need to do PvP for the exclusive items as well as getting daily XP or endeavours.

What I'd really like is a game mode where everything is set. Not just CP. You get assigned stats. No personalized sets. Just your skills and your weapon types. This could allow the game to be more heavily railroaded, like League of Legends, rather than it being a mess where some things are just "the meta" and everything else is completely steamrolled by "meta" builds and classes.

There are still some beginner PvP guilds out there you could join. Or maybe find a casual guild that also does some PvP on a regular basis. It's getting a lot harder to find them to be sure, but they're still out there.