Why exactly is Damage and Healing Halved in PvP?

Avran_Sylt · November 26

Doesn't this indirectly cause all sources of additional health to double in Effective HP strength?

So all PvE health-based sets are now twice as effective (and they were designed around PvE damage to begin with?).

All foods/drinks without any HP are now heavily undervalued?

tsaescishoeshiner · November 26

On paper, it sort of doubles your EHP.

I say "sort of", because the incoming damage in PvP is so drastically different. All my tanky PvE builds wouldn't be as tanky in PvP. Time to kill from full health in PvP can be 2-3 seconds as it is even with damage halved. The debuffs make it more responsive.

PvE builds also don't use health sets, so that's a different balance issue. PvE tanks and healers use support sets, and DPS use personal damage sets. So health sets might be even more than twice as popular—or less, since they have so many other sets to compete with that are important for PvP.

In PvP, burst damage is huge, so Way of Fire is more than twice as great in PvP. It's not great in PvE, where for damage you want sustained damage over time, usually AoE, and personal buffs.

So those health sets, which might seem to technically give you twice as much value, maybe actually don't, because they're competing with so many potentially valuable sets that are better in PvP than in PvE.

Health food is definitely more important in PvP, and it's more common for players to put attribute points and enchantments into health, unlike for most DPS and healers, to your point.

If you want to prevent incoming damage in PvP, you need more than health. You need stuns, DoTs, burst damage, ult gain, damage shields, movement speed, mobility, armor beyond the armor cap, increased damage blocked, etc. And cross heals from other players.

Just my thoughts.

BXR_Lonestar · November 26

I think they're trying to increase time to kill for your average builds (excluding glass cannons) by decreasing damage, as some classes would annihilate people instantly if damage wasn't halved (nightblades, looking at you, but Sorcs also). And if people were accompanied by healers who had full strength heals, then other players would be nigh unkillable (I already hear people complain that healing is too strong in PVP!), so healing is also halved.

The bottom line is they're trying to reduce the amount of insta-kills to give players a chance to actually fight back in the engagement, and in the same breath, make sure that healing isn't so overpowering that a healer present on the battlefield is an automatic win for that squad.

Avran_Sylt · November 26

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

On paper, it sort of doubles your EHP.

I say "sort of", because the incoming damage in PvP is so drastically different. All my tanky PvE builds wouldn't be as tanky in PvP. Time to kill from full health in PvP can be 2-3 seconds as it is even with damage halved. The debuffs make it more responsive.

PvE builds also don't use health sets, so that's a different balance issue. PvE tanks and healers use support sets, and DPS use personal damage sets. So health sets might be even more than twice as popular—or less, since they have so many other sets to compete with that are important for PvP.

In PvP, burst damage is huge, so Way of Fire is more than twice as great in PvP. It's not great in PvE, where for damage you want sustained damage over time, usually AoE, and personal buffs.

So those health sets, which might seem to technically give you twice as much value, maybe actually don't, because they're competing with so many potentially valuable sets that are better in PvP than in PvE.

Health food is definitely more important in PvP, and it's more common for players to put attribute points and enchantments into health, unlike for most DPS and healers, to your point.

If you want to prevent incoming damage in PvP, you need more than health. You need stuns, DoTs, burst damage, ult gain, damage shields, movement speed, mobility, armor beyond the armor cap, increased damage blocked, etc. And cross heals from other players.

Just my thoughts.

I wouldn't say it's more responsive as a result of half damage, rather that it's more delayed, allowing users more time to make a response.

Burst damage in PvP is huge, yes, but only if the target player isn't blocking, or roll-dodging, casting heals or using shields (unless your target really is that squishy), which is why many wombo combos involve some form of initial CC to make sure those combos hit. Meaning having a greater health capacity is a near requirement as to not get womboed down in one combo, allowing you to recover health and resources while under the effects of CC immunity.

Just not sure if this means that Health stat amps are a clear winner in PvP over things like increased Stamina or Magicka, restricting build crafting to a degree.

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

I think they're trying to increase time to kill for your average builds (excluding glass cannons) by decreasing damage, as some classes would annihilate people instantly if damage wasn't halved (nightblades, looking at you, but Sorcs also). And if people were accompanied by healers who had full strength heals, then other players would be nigh unkillable (I already hear people complain that healing is too strong in PVP!), so healing is also halved.

The bottom line is they're trying to reduce the amount of insta-kills to give players a chance to actually fight back in the engagement, and in the same breath, make sure that healing isn't so overpowering that a healer present on the battlefield is an automatic win for that squad.

Well they're certainly failing in the cross healing regard (in groups). Resource efficiency only increases the more allies you can heal with a single ability, as there are no diminishing returns.

Avran_Sylt · November 26

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

On paper, it sort of doubles your EHP.

I say "sort of", because the incoming damage in PvP is so drastically different. All my tanky PvE builds wouldn't be as tanky in PvP. Time to kill from full health in PvP can be 2-3 seconds as it is even with damage halved. The debuffs make it more responsive.

PvE builds also don't use health sets, so that's a different balance issue. PvE tanks and healers use support sets, and DPS use personal damage sets. So health sets might be even more than twice as popular—or less, since they have so many other sets to compete with that are important for PvP.

In PvP, burst damage is huge, so Way of Fire is more than twice as great in PvP. It's not great in PvE, where for damage you want sustained damage over time, usually AoE, and personal buffs.

So those health sets, which might seem to technically give you twice as much value, maybe actually don't, because they're competing with so many potentially valuable sets that are better in PvP than in PvE.

Health food is definitely more important in PvP, and it's more common for players to put attribute points and enchantments into health, unlike for most DPS and healers, to your point.

If you want to prevent incoming damage in PvP, you need more than health. You need stuns, DoTs, burst damage, ult gain, damage shields, movement speed, mobility, armor beyond the armor cap, increased damage blocked, etc. And cross heals from other players.

Just my thoughts.

Out of curiosity, why Way of Fire over a set like Systers Scowl? It does need a bash, but then it triggers on every light attack. (Well, once per second).

CameraBeardThePirate · November 27

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

On paper, it sort of doubles your EHP.

I say "sort of", because the incoming damage in PvP is so drastically different. All my tanky PvE builds wouldn't be as tanky in PvP. Time to kill from full health in PvP can be 2-3 seconds as it is even with damage halved. The debuffs make it more responsive.

PvE builds also don't use health sets, so that's a different balance issue. PvE tanks and healers use support sets, and DPS use personal damage sets. So health sets might be even more than twice as popular—or less, since they have so many other sets to compete with that are important for PvP.

In PvP, burst damage is huge, so Way of Fire is more than twice as great in PvP. It's not great in PvE, where for damage you want sustained damage over time, usually AoE, and personal buffs.

So those health sets, which might seem to technically give you twice as much value, maybe actually don't, because they're competing with so many potentially valuable sets that are better in PvP than in PvE.

Health food is definitely more important in PvP, and it's more common for players to put attribute points and enchantments into health, unlike for most DPS and healers, to your point.

If you want to prevent incoming damage in PvP, you need more than health. You need stuns, DoTs, burst damage, ult gain, damage shields, movement speed, mobility, armor beyond the armor cap, increased damage blocked, etc. And cross heals from other players.

Just my thoughts.

Out of curiosity, why Way of Fire over a set like Systers Scowl? It does need a bash, but then it triggers on every light attack. (Well, once per second).

Because way of fire works on literally everything with no setup time required. Systres requires you to be in melee range to bash.

Way of Fire also works on Weapon Abilities, Weapon DoTs, heavy attacks, etc.

tsaescishoeshiner · November 27

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

On paper, it sort of doubles your EHP.

I say "sort of", because the incoming damage in PvP is so drastically different. All my tanky PvE builds wouldn't be as tanky in PvP. Time to kill from full health in PvP can be 2-3 seconds as it is even with damage halved. The debuffs make it more responsive.

PvE builds also don't use health sets, so that's a different balance issue. PvE tanks and healers use support sets, and DPS use personal damage sets. So health sets might be even more than twice as popular—or less, since they have so many other sets to compete with that are important for PvP.

In PvP, burst damage is huge, so Way of Fire is more than twice as great in PvP. It's not great in PvE, where for damage you want sustained damage over time, usually AoE, and personal buffs.

So those health sets, which might seem to technically give you twice as much value, maybe actually don't, because they're competing with so many potentially valuable sets that are better in PvP than in PvE.

Health food is definitely more important in PvP, and it's more common for players to put attribute points and enchantments into health, unlike for most DPS and healers, to your point.

If you want to prevent incoming damage in PvP, you need more than health. You need stuns, DoTs, burst damage, ult gain, damage shields, movement speed, mobility, armor beyond the armor cap, increased damage blocked, etc. And cross heals from other players.

Just my thoughts.

Out of curiosity, why Way of Fire over a set like Systers Scowl? It does need a bash, but then it triggers on every light attack. (Well, once per second).

I would say mainly because Way of Fire scales higher than Systres Scowl with your offensive stats, and you probably won't hit someone with a light attack once per second even in a duel. Way of Fire also procs off light attacks and (I think) DoTs.

Can always try it out! When it looks good on paper, just need to fold it up into an airplane and see if it flies.

Joy_Division · November 27

The 50% reduction to damage and 55% reduction to healing came about soon after the 1.6 update which removed soft caps , introduced the CP tree, and made "stamina" builds a thing. All of this soon resulted in unforeseen power creep which had players' health bars too quickly "ping ponging" - to use the term the devs used - between 0 and max health. To slow things down, ZOS cut PvP damage and healing in half. Obviously looking at current PvP, that makeshift solution did not work and just pushed things down the road.

Health is more efficient, though not because of battle spirit.

Magicka is only good on sorcs because, for some strange reason, the ZOS devs believe that class should be alone in having a stat be dedicated to offense and defense. With the increase in spell/weapon damage and how easy it is to raise that value, it is generally more efficient for non sorcerers to max that out and run with low resource pool + high regen. Especially since regeneration is also more efficient now than years ago.

Another way to look at is is while it is technically true that it takes twice as much damage to burn through people's health bars making a health set seem more efficient, people are potentially doing like ten times the damage now, so a health investment today is actually a less efficient years ago. By contrast, nothing is burning our magicka/stamina pools faster.

Avran_Sylt · November 27

Joy_Division wrote: »

The 50% reduction to damage and 55% reduction to healing came about soon after the 1.6 update which removed soft caps , introduced the CP tree, and made "stamina" builds a thing. All of this soon resulted in unforeseen power creep which had players' health bars too quickly "ping ponging" - to use the term the devs used - between 0 and max health. To slow things down, ZOS cut PvP damage and healing in half. Obviously looking at current PvP, that makeshift solution did not work and just pushed things down the road.

Health is more efficient, though not because of battle spirit.

Magicka is only good on sorcs because, for some strange reason, the ZOS devs believe that class should be alone in having a stat be dedicated to offense and defense. With the increase in spell/weapon damage and how easy it is to raise that value, it is generally more efficient for non sorcerers to max that out and run with low resource pool + high regen. Especially since regeneration is also more efficient now than years ago.

Another way to look at is is while it is technically true that it takes twice as much damage to burn through people's health bars making a health set seem more efficient, people are potentially doing like ten times the damage now, so a health investment today is actually a less efficient years ago. By contrast, nothing is burning our magicka/stamina pools faster.

People might be doing 10x the damage in perfect condition parses on PVE dummies where they don't get interrupted/stunned, have all the buffs (and enemy debuffs), their attacks are not dodged, their target isn't blocking, and none of their DoT abilities cleansed (and they have time to apply them all).

That's not the PvP environment. You have tools available to you to make that doubled EHP more pronounced.

And I'll be honest, ping-ponging is still here. Though that might be more a result of cross-healing as I'm noticing.

moosegod · November 29

Yes there was a time where battle spirit didn't half damage/healing. I could kill someone in a GCD on my NB. It was fun for me but probably not for the other players. ZOS added the battle spirit change to slow down the gameplay a bit so people can at least have a second to react lol.

They have continued with this philosophy throughout their PvP updates as lots of changes have been made to skills to add "time to react". Assassin's will received a travel time nerf so it doesn't hit you instantly at melee range (yet sorc frags still are instant...) and they added .5s cast times to powerful ultimates like dawnbreaker and incap. strike to give players a chance to react instead of knowing to predict an ult. They have consistently been raising the skill floor which I can appreciate since it may encourage more players to try PvP and have them stick around. However, sometimes I miss the way things used to be...

Avran_Sylt · November 29

moosegod wrote: »

Yes there was a time where battle spirit didn't half damage/healing. I could kill someone in a GCD on my NB. It was fun for me but probably not for the other players. ZOS added the battle spirit change to slow down the gameplay a bit so people can at least have a second to react lol.

They have continued with this philosophy throughout their PvP updates as lots of changes have been made to skills to add "time to react". Assassin's will received a travel time nerf so it doesn't hit you instantly at melee range (yet sorc frags still are instant...) and they added .5s cast times to powerful ultimates like dawnbreaker and incap. strike to give players a chance to react instead of knowing to predict an ult. They have consistently been raising the skill floor which I can appreciate since it may encourage more players to try PvP and have them stick around. However, sometimes I miss the way things used to be...

I understand that part (And agree to a point, though I don't like the cross-heal meta). And myself it does feel a little bad when you stomp on an undergeared player by bursting them in two GCD. (But hey they need to learn the meta of layered defenses).

But I think you have your definitions mixed up.

Raising the skill floor is actually a bad thing. It means there's a higher barrier to entry as you need to learn more about the game to actually play it.

The most common role played in the PvE game is DPS.

The squishiest and most easily killed players in PvP are DPS players that have few defenses or sustain, who now can't actually deal too much DPS given the opponent has enough time to react and squish them/burn out their resources through CC and win attrition. (with an optimized gearing setup).

In terms of onboarding more of the PvE crowd, then that misses the mark.

(Though this does play well for the duelist crowd).

moosegod · December 3

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Raising the skill floor is actually a bad thing. It means there's a higher barrier to entry as you need to learn more about the game to actually play it.

Ah yes, thank you for clearing that up, I had it backwards. I guess what I mean is in their attempts to lower the skill floor it has been vastly lowering the ceiling as well. They have been narrowing the gap between the bottom and the top level of skill is what I was trying to describe.

Avran_Sylt · December 4

moosegod wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Raising the skill floor is actually a bad thing. It means there's a higher barrier to entry as you need to learn more about the game to actually play it.

Ah yes, thank you for clearing that up, I had it backwards. I guess what I mean is in their attempts to lower the skill floor it has been vastly lowering the ceiling as well. They have been narrowing the gap between the bottom and the top level of skill is what I was trying to describe.

Adding more methods to be able to dodge highly damaging abilities if you have the knowledge of such an attack and the resources/build to be able to capitalize on taking on that defensive measure actually raises the skill ceiling and floor.

It adds a new skill in the identification and exploitation of such a defensive opportunity.

It also now raises the skill floor for new entries as they need to learn what attacks of theirs can be read and dodged, as they can no longer rely on them hitting consistently.

So far as I can tell they’ve been consistently making PvP more competitive.

Really the only things that I’ve seen to better onboard players is the whole battlegrounds idea itself serving as more frequent clashes (compared to cyrodiil), and the recent boons added to battlegrounds that function as a pickup/powerup that allows players to momentarily gain extensive power. (Kinda akin to picking up a shotgun/sniper/rocket launcher in Halo).

Everything else I’ve seen them change in PvP mostly serves the competitive duelist crowd.

Volendrung unfortunately seems to just end up in control of the resident ball group. And actually serve to make the gameplay experience even more newb unfriendly in Cyrodiil. (Think that’s why it’s mostly chucked into the water).