Revitalize IC by Reworking Tel Var Loss/Gain to Incentivize System Engagement

acastanza_ESO · November 25

The risk/reward system of Tel Var is a great idea for creating a high value currency, however, the current system simply isn't attractive enough for the current playerbase to engage with, partly due to the incentive structure offering significant rewards for simply not engaging with it in the intended way, not carrying any tel var of your own (eliminating your own risk), and instead "ganking" players who are trying to engage with the system.

To this end, I'd propose reworking the way your Tel Var earned from killing players is calculated to incentivize carrying more Tel Var, while simultaneously mitigating the losses for dying to players who aren't engaging with the system.

Currently, you gain (distributed amongst the players who contributed to the kill) half the the Tel Var a player is carrying, which is then affected by your multiplier. This multiplier is, in theory, supposed to provide the incentive for engaging with the system, but it simply isn't doing it's job.

I'd like to propose the following alternative structure (note that this isn't capped at the end of the table, it's just an example)

Earning Formula: MAX(DEFENDER TEL VAR*(ATTACKER TEL VAR/DEFENDER TEL VAR)*0.5, CURRENT LOSS CAP)

In this this table, yellow is the "break even" point with the current system. In the top table, you can see that in cases where you (or the group who made the kill on average) is carrying less tel var than the player who was killed, you would earn less and the person killed would lose less, these cells are shaded red. This provides the disincentive for avoiding the "risk" part of the "risk/reward" mechanic - if you aren't carrying Tel Var, your ability to earn Tel Var is significantly reduced. In the lower table, you can see how this provides protection to players who are engaging with the system (by earning and carrying tel var) from disproportionately high losses to players who aren't engaging - the green cells in the lower table reflect cases where you would loose less than you do currently).

This also provides increased incentives for earning Tel Var and actually engaging in PVP. If you're carrying a large amount of Tel Var, you simply earn more from killing players regardless of how much Tel Var they actually have on them, while still capping their losses to the current 50% maximum. For example in this new system, if you are carrying 20,000 Tel Var, and you kill a player, you would earn no less than 10,000 Tel Var for that kill. They wouldn't lose any more than they would now, but you would earn more as an incentive for both engaging in PVP and engaging in the Tel Var system

In this alternative system, you would never lose more Tel Var than the current 50% loss cap, however as long as you were carrying more tel var than the person you killed you would always earn more Tel Var. However, in order to prevent botting/kill farming this enhanced "bonus" amount for killing a player that's above their loss cap would have to have adjustments similar to how players who have died more recently are worth less AP.

This system rework would, I think, significantly improve the incentives for engaging with PVP in Imperial City for both hardcore and casual players.

moosegod · November 26

First off, the multiplier only effects your tel var stones earned from killing monsters, not players.

Second, the risk/reward is created through the multiplier. You earn 33% more stones when you're carrying 10k for the 4x multiplier vs. the 3x. You risk your stones for the reward of earning more from monsters. The system is working as intended:

Player(s) kill monsters/bosses, do quests, open chests and earn stones. The player's risk increases the more they collect but so does the reward. Plus you only lose half, when IC launched you lost 80%. If I die while risking 10k I still have 5k which is still significant and the player(s) who killed me got a nice reward.

Getting ganked is just the unfortunate nature of PvP. If you die to a ganker they deserve the stones they robbed from you. You have to remain vigilant in IC, that is part of the system working as intended.

Here are just a few issues that come to mind when looking at your system:

1. If I come into IC and I have no tel var, I need to farm tel var before engaging in PvP so I can have the potential to earn a fair share from killing a player with a lot of stones. This seems to defeat the purpose of your system encouraging PvP which I think is already highly encouraged in the current system.
2. This system would make the Imperial Physique set far less of a risk and if players need to carry 10k stones then everyone will run this set in IC if they can. Overall, carrying a lot of stones seems less risky in the proposed chart.
3. This system is too complicated for casual players (and even enfranchised players honestly). It's easy to understand you will lose half your stones when you die. This system would feel like losing an arbitrary amount.
4. Just by carrying a measly 2k I can earn 1k stones from killing a player with 100? This is a crazy reward and would be so easy to exploit. I know you mentioned this in your write-up but I could earn 250k in a second by gathering up 10 players. *** I could easily earn 50k everyday just by killing two of my friends. We all have alts, this would be so broken.

MincMincMinc · November 26

Sorry to just bypass your arguments, but the more fundamental problem isnt people deciding to engage in pvp or not when in IC. The problem is NOBODY goes into IC. For IC to function it needs a constant flow of people. Same issue with Cyrodil where the system was never designed to function with low population. Even during the PVP events recently IC has been dead.

Look at other games that have a lossful pvp area. Generally for these areas to be utilized the reward has to be ludicrous for the risk. Meaning they need to have a reward that directly has a function in late game content. For instance if we were to design eso from scratch, you would put something like tempers or a key potion material in the telvar store. These materials would have to be exponentially harder to get elsewhere in the game and be detrimental to late game content if not farmed. (systems like this also help against bot farming ruining late game economy)

Once you solve the issues of a declining playerbase, the next thing is how you need to give telvar weight before you soften the punishment system. You first have to remove the combat logging mechanics used through queing out and the imperial retreat sigils.

The system shouldn't use the attacker in any way. No real reason to overcomplicate things by 100x fold. A similar softening effect would be to have players lose 20% of their telvar, but that increases by 10% per multiplier threshold. So low telvar players aren't worth much of anything. (new players will still be brutalized since nobody knows how much telvar you are holding.)

React · November 26

Your telvar modifier does not affect the telvar you get from killing a player.

Disagree with changing the loss/gain system from how it is now. They simply need to rework IC, either mechanically or as a whole, and add a new reward structure of some sort to incentivize it.

Necrotech_Master · November 26

yeah this is absolutely not the way IC needs to be tweaked

the biggest issue i have with IC is that district control also controls respawn points - this itself is a big damper on pvp because if you die you cant just immediately hop back into the fight, which leads to people mostly just range camping from the safe areas if they dont control the flags

the only other possible issue ive seen some remark on is the 0 risk ganking, which is where you have 0 tel var and just gank and get tel var from people, suggestions ive seen for this is to just make it so you can only steal up to the maximum that you are carrying so you basically have equal risk to the opponent (if you fail your gank and die to said target they wouldnt have a 0 tel var reward either)

the 3rd thing that is also kind of an issue is the unsportsmanlike conduct by queuing out to cyro mid combat

tsaescishoeshiner · November 26

If they really want to boost engagement in IC, they would find a way to make it so any character can join any faction (but be stuck to that faction for the day). The "lore" explanation would be that you're choosing a faction to temporarily fight for in the City in exchange for using the base. (Same way you don't need a lore explanation to just help with any zone story quest.)

Cyrodiil is based on long-term campaign, so having Cyrodiil based on character faction makes sense. But in IC, it's just a short term farming and brawling activity where I frequently can't group up with people based on our character factions. So all we can do are BGs.

It might sound small, but they could also add Imperial City to the Party menu separate from the Cyrodiil one, with a bigger daily reward for your first daily quest completed. Like, transmutes, exp, big Tel Var bundle, some materials or something, style pages, companion gear, etc. It would encourage people to hop in, even as a less skilled PvPer.

Imperial Fragments could be made more desirable, since they're not lost on death.

Maybe Fragments could reward bound Imperial City-specific gear to help players get a start in PvP--having to save up Tel Var for gear has sort of the opposite effect where the players who need it most have it the roughest lol. While there are some good ways to cash Imperial Fragments out, it could be made more of a progression material like Archival Fortunes, where it grants upgrades or farming boosts.

gariondavey · November 29

React wrote: »

Your telvar modifier does not affect the telvar you get from killing a player.

Disagree with changing the loss/gain system from how it is now. They simply need to rework IC, either mechanically or as a whole, and add a new reward structure of some sort to incentivize it.

Can you link your thread you made here please @React
That proposal for reworked ic was thorough and very appealing.

React · November 29

gariondavey wrote: »

React wrote: »

Your telvar modifier does not affect the telvar you get from killing a player.

Disagree with changing the loss/gain system from how it is now. They simply need to rework IC, either mechanically or as a whole, and add a new reward structure of some sort to incentivize it.

Can you link your thread you made here please @React
That proposal for reworked ic was thorough and very appealing.

I can't seem to comment on it, I think they might have locked it. But here it is.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/620139/in-depth-imperial-city-rework-idea-the-pvp-content-eso-needs-in-2023/p1

loosej · November 29

The design of Imperial City, imo, is just fundamentally flawed.

People who engage in PvP generate new AP, with no risk of losing it.
People who engage in PvE generate new Tel Var, risking to lose it to a ganker or a ballgroup.

Make that make sense. Players who are running around capping flags are worth less than players who are minding their own business and killing monsters to get a daily done. How does a PvP zone get designed in a way that the questers are the high-value targets and the actual PvPers not?

No matter if the reason was design by committee or devs who thought this would actually be fun, this system is what makes most players avoid the zone as much as possible. No amount of new battle tokens, costumes or gear sets is ever going to change that. At best it will attract people just long enough to get the rewards, and then become empty again.

(Edit in order to try and help find solutions instead of just pointing out issues.)

I think one thing that could make IC more approachable content for everyone is a metric other than the amount of Tel Var you're carrying to determine how much Tel Var you can lose when killed. In theory the strong players should be the ones earning/stealing lots of Tel Var, and should therefore be the high-value targets. In practice this isn't the case with the ease of teleportation between IC and Cyro. So there should be a new metric that differentiates the sweaty players from the new/casual ones. This could just be CP to keep it simple. CP 200 player kills CP 1600? I'd say that's 50% well earned. CP 2400 kills a CP 160? Maybe get 5% of their Tel Var, enough to be annoying but not so much that it scares them out of the content forever.

warm_blanket · November 29

Straightforward IC improvements:

Allow respawning in any district, regardless of flag ownership
Porting out of IC counts as a death (-50% carried telvar)
Telvar gains are capped to carried telvar. Losses can stay by default at 50% per death, with any amount left over after the attackers capped claim refunded back to the dead player.

Needless to say having more valuable purchase options with telvar would also help, ie monster helms.