[BG] Suggestions for 3 queues

SkaraMinoc · November 14

Nevermind. There's a few issues with the suggested 3 queues. So I think this idea will have to be shelved for now.

3 queues only. See comment explaining why.

Standard Battleground 8v8 (Solo, Duo, Trio) - This should be the default queue.
Competitive Battleground 4v4 (Solo, Duo)
Competitive Deathmatch 4v4 - Requires group of 4 players to queue.

Delete the Standard Group 8v8. It's not needed.

bladenick · November 14

The duo queue shall only get start if each side get duo team join

4v4 is too tight, a well organized duo + 2 solo team vs 4 solo will complete lopsided

SkaraMinoc · November 14

bladenick wrote: »

The duo queue shall only get start if each side get duo team join

4v4 is too tight, a well organized duo + 2 solo team vs 4 solo will complete lopsided

That's not always the case. Especially if the duo team has no healer and the other team has a full healer.

Not every duo is comprised of sweaty players.

There is a worse scenario right now where duos must face premade 4v4 groups on comms. They have no chance.

Amottica · November 14

So two duo teams against four solo players?

Also, a separate deathmatch queue is fine if it does not draw from the other 4v4 queue. Previously, it drew from the random queue as there was insufficient interest in DM. I do not care if they have long queues, but it should be on its own if it exists.

I think separate solo and group queues for 8v8 are best. 4v4 can be grouped only if the goal is to have only three queues.

RomanRex · November 14

Hard no from me on the 4 vs 4 cue getting divided or changed to duo’s in the solo cue.

Best as it is.

Aggrovious · November 14

Amottica wrote: »

So two duo teams against four solo players?

Also, a separate deathmatch queue is fine if it does not draw from the other 4v4 queue. Previously, it drew from the random queue as there was insufficient interest in DM. I do not care if they have long queues, but it should be on its own if it exists.

I think separate solo and group queues for 8v8 are best. 4v4 can be grouped only if the goal is to have only three queues.

Doesn't matter if solo 8v8 queues can still get the same players in the match if they queue at the same time. My friend and I get put on the same team most of the time doing this. In normal games, solo vs group just meant you are solo or group queued. You still get in matches with grouped players.

SkaraMinoc · November 14

The problem is the Group 4v4 is a complete mess with premade 4v4 groups dominating the queue for hours at a time. Duos and trios have no chance. They get spawn camped.

A single 4v4 queue for Solo and Duo fixes the issue while introducing very little power difference. A battleground full of equally skilled players is only at a slight disadvantage if one of the teams has a duo. Even a team of two duos isn't much different since there are no voice comms between duos.

The Solo 4v4 battlegrounds matchmaking isn't accurate enough to make it worth trying to keep the queue as solo-only. There are too many combat variables for matchmaking to be truly accurate and balanced. That's why you see so many players complaining about lopsided matches. Adding duos to the Solo 4v4 queue won't make much of a difference.

2 players on comms is not that much power uplift. 3 players is where it starts to show.

Major_Mangle · November 14

And that 4v4 for 4-man only would never start. We don´t need super specific queues when the PvP community is as tiny as it is. If we had 10x the population or more then sure, but as it is right now we need less restrictions and categories not more.

xylena_lazarow · November 14

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Standard Battleground 8v8 (Solo, Duo, Trio)

No. This mode only works because it's solo queue. Any premade will turn it into pug stomping.

SkaraMinoc · November 14

Major_Mangle wrote: »

And that 4v4 for 4-man only would never start. We don´t need super specific queues when the PvP community is as tiny as it is. If we had 10x the population or more then sure, but as it is right now we need less restrictions and categories not more.

Sure it would but mostly during prime time. There are always a few 4v4 premades queue'ing up every day on PC NA. That's the problem and that's why they need their own queue.

SkaraMinoc · November 14

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Standard Battleground 8v8 (Solo, Duo, Trio)

No. This mode only works because it's solo queue. Any premade will turn it into pug stomping.

Solo 8v8 already has pug stomping. A premade group of 2 or 3 can have a coordinated uplift, but they aren't unstoppable. Also, most groups aren't sweaty to begin with.

SkaraMinoc · November 14

Competitive Deathmatch 4v4 - Requires group of 4 players to queue.

^ this could potentially be "Requires group of 3 or 4 players to queue" in case a trio wants to fight a group of 4

SkaraMinoc · November 14

Major_Mangle wrote: »

And that 4v4 for 4-man only would never start. We don´t need super specific queues when the PvP community is as tiny as it is. If we had 10x the population or more then sure, but as it is right now we need less restrictions and categories not more.

Actually there's an issue with the above suggested 3 queues where groups of 4 casual players that want to play together will never have the opportunity to do so.

SkaraMinoc · November 14

We can shelve this idea for now. I updated the original post above.

I do empathize with the small groups that are forced to play against 4v4 premades in the competitive queue.

I wish there was a better solution for them.

darvaria · November 14

Even a really good duo or trio can stomp pugs. Just let them group queue. Leave solo as solo please.

Amottica · November 15

Aggrovious wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

So two duo teams against four solo players?

Also, a separate deathmatch queue is fine if it does not draw from the other 4v4 queue. Previously, it drew from the random queue as there was insufficient interest in DM. I do not care if they have long queues, but it should be on its own if it exists.

I think separate solo and group queues for 8v8 are best. 4v4 can be grouped only if the goal is to have only three queues.

Doesn't matter if solo 8v8 queues can still get the same players in the match if they queue at the same time. My friend and I get put on the same team most of the time doing this. In normal games, solo vs group just meant you are solo or group queued. You still get in matches with grouped players.

But it is not guaranteed. If the queue ever gets busy, it will become less guaranteed. Granted, that requires PvP in ESO to become popular.

Normal games? If a game has a solo queue and a group queue, then those who queue solo would not be mixed with those who queue for the grouped matches. Well, unless it is extremely poorly designed, giving the option of choosing one or the other should actually mean something.

Regardless, that is not what my post was about. Someone noted that 2 duo teams against 4 solo players would be lopsided. They were suggesting that was a flaw of a 4v4 design when it is not. Hence the question mark.

Aldoss · November 15

The group queue is 99% supported by casual duos, not sweaty try hards.

8v8 needs to be solos or duos only. Leave the 4v4 to solo only and group (2,3, or 4). Comped 4-stacks in the 8v8 ruined the chance for a healthy environment.

Most of the duos my wife and I meet in BGs communicate to each other through group chat, meaning, they're not in comms. They're just two people that are sharing an experience together. Many have less than 25k hp. Many don't know what a self-heal is.

8v8 needs to be combined and capped at duos.

xylena_lazarow · November 15

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Solo 8v8 already has pug stomping. A premade group of 2 or 3 can have a coordinated uplift, but they aren't unstoppable. Also, most groups aren't sweaty to begin with.

There's no pug stomping when everyone is pugging, if something goes lopsided it was just bad luck, but you've seen what even just a sweaty duo can do in Cyro, it stacks the deck against the solos that are the lifeblood of the mode.

Aggrovious · November 15

Amottica wrote: »

Normal games? If a game has a solo queue and a group queue, then those who queue solo would not be mixed with those who queue for the grouped matches. Well, unless it is extremely poorly designed, giving the option of choosing one or the other should actually mean something.

Regardless, that is not what my post was about. Someone noted that 2 duo teams against 4 solo players would be lopsided. They were suggesting that was a flaw of a 4v4 design when it is not. Hence the question mark.

Yes, most games allow you to queue solo or group. You will still be put in lobbies with grouped players because queue times are everything. The choice allows you to not be in a group to play, that is it.

This is my reasoning why I think two queues for 8v8 is bad. I am saying to eliminate a redundant option which will lower queue times. Most games also will throw players together due to queue. Matches will always feel lopsided, that is how alot of gaming is.

Aldoss · November 15

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Solo 8v8 already has pug stomping. A premade group of 2 or 3 can have a coordinated uplift, but they aren't unstoppable. Also, most groups aren't sweaty to begin with.

There's no pug stomping when everyone is pugging, if something goes lopsided it was just bad luck, but you've seen what even just a sweaty duo can do in Cyro, it stacks the deck against the solos that are the lifeblood of the mode.

Sweaty duos in Cyro have full access to their CP, whereas they don't in the BG environment. You can feel the shift from the CP environment to the non-CP.

I think it's disingenuous to say there's no pug stomping in the solo environment. There is absolutely pug stomping in BGs. BGers know who other BGers are. We all do it. We all look at the lobby and see what names get placed where. You can easily tell when you're about to rocked because the almighty robot controlling the lobby places 6 of 8 insane players on the same team compared to you and 1 other.

BGers that know each other will almost always stick together. They think the same way and share the same situational awareness most times. It's impressive how frequently double and triple ults happen in the solo lobbies. It's the nature of this game, once you learn to be aware of the scenarios.

Amottica · November 18

Aggrovious wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Normal games? If a game has a solo queue and a group queue, then those who queue solo would not be mixed with those who queue for the grouped matches. Well, unless it is extremely poorly designed, giving the option of choosing one or the other should actually mean something.

Regardless, that is not what my post was about. Someone noted that 2 duo teams against 4 solo players would be lopsided. They were suggesting that was a flaw of a 4v4 design when it is not. Hence the question mark.

Yes, most games allow you to queue solo or group. You will still be put in lobbies with grouped players because queue times are everything. The choice allows you to not be in a group to play, that is it.

This is my reasoning why I think two queues for 8v8 is bad. I am saying to eliminate a redundant option which will lower queue times. Most games also will throw players together due to queue. Matches will always feel lopsided, that is how alot of gaming is.

Most games have a much larger PvP player base. I have seen many, but I have not seen it as a commonly available choice. My guess is that low-quality games may have such a choice.

So, I doubt "most" games have a design where someone can queue for matches with all solo players or for matches that permit everyone to queue with others.

Stafford197 · November 18

Console player here. I am ALREADY experiencing long queues as a solo player, despite being queued for both 8v8 solo and 8v8 group queues (for the sake of trying to speed up queue times).

I’d also say at least 50% of my matches are now beginning with less than 16 players and take a few minutes to fill. There are even many times now where even after an additional 5 minutes of searching, the lobby deleted itself because it can’t find 1 player. This is even happening after having searched for a BG match for 10-20min.

The reason I say this is because it might not even matter what our queue options are at this point. Either there is a queueing bug, or the new BG patch spike in BG population is ending far sooner than I thought. Please work on medal scoring and combat balance asap.