Time to discuss the elephant in the room. Broken 40k shield ball groups that take 0 dam

weights44
weights44
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I recently started going back into cyro since the new bgs are still broken and que's are taking forever for a game that will just timeout. But that's an entirely different conversation that needs to be had if anyone cares to listen. Currently I am watching a 30 man AD ball group attacking Glade. I won't mention the other 20 EP that are only attacking DC as the approach the outside postern doors trying to come into the keep. That again is another discussion that needs to be had (why is one faction assisting another faction without fight each other for hours on end).

This 30 man AD ball group seems to have a downtime of about 5 seconds on 40k health shields. Not to mention the infinite amount of cross healing that is allowing them to literally take "0000" damage from the 10 or so oils directly above them and the roughly dozen lancers raining down on their heads. Yet still they take "0000" damage. The entire group has cc immunity while having unlimited full health shield stacks and they move faster than any mount I have ever ridden in this game. Wait for it...they literally run around targeting 1 opposition player at a time. This seems to be the "new" pvp in cyro lately. Massive zerg ball groups that run around targeting solo players non stop and they rarely ever die. Roughly 95% of the time the only way to take back a keep they are in is after they get bored doing the exact same thing for however long they are in the keep. Only after they leave do things appear to return back to normal in cyro.

Now I understand this topic has been complained about before. And I am primarily a small scale or solo player in cyro. But...correct me if I'm wrong here. Was this game not designed to "play how you want to play" some time ago? There is literally no possible way to defend against this even on a small scale. I have witnessed an entire DC faction stack at glade recently just to literally do nothing against these ball groups. Imagine 60 or so players with 20 of the most powerful siege/oils firing non stop at this type of group just for the group to stand there and out heal this damage while keeping 40k health shields up. Then they hop around and run over every other player they come across because we cant possible obtain the amount of cross healing and shield stacking that takes place in ball groups. If we want to be mildly successful we must adopt this one type of playstyle or else.

Where is the fun in being forced to only play one way in cyro in order to "win" or stay alive. I'm not complaining that I die. It happens to us all. But the level of balance in this game is beyond laughable when it comes to ball groups now. The one chance we had to wipe them was 1 set that recently was gutted and now they just heal through it like it's a dot from a dk or a basic lancer.

I'm not trying to stir the pot. But we need to really address this. The balance with this is so far off. And I know I'm not the only one thinking this way since it is discussed on an hourly basis in zone chats in both GH and BR. I want this to be constructive to help return a healthy balance to pvp. No ball group should be able to withstand 20/20 siege, 50-60 players, have 40k health shields non stop, have complete cc immunity, and take next to no damage. Please look into this.
  • gronoxvx
    gronoxvx
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    Sounds like a zerg more than a ballgroup tbh. Especially if its more than 12.

    Hope they do more to stop zerging
    Edited by gronoxvx on 13 November 2024 02:56
  • KromedeTheCorrupt
    KromedeTheCorrupt
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    ZOS tends to nerf every counter to ball groups “Azureblight” being one of the best chances to kill them is now worthless and not even worth using in pve. It’s very situational now where there is a lot of adds. I’m just going to assume people over at zos play in ball groups at this point. 10 years of people complaining about ball groups it’s time to let it it go and just face the facts. Nothing is going to change this discussion has been on the forums countless times and all are ignored just like PvP was when they were banning people in live streams who even asked about an PvP update.
  • BlueRaven
    BlueRaven
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    Oh? Is that the problem in PvP?

    I thought it was;

    -Snipe
    -Cloak
    -Sorc pets
    -Arcanists
    -Tanks
    -Heals
    -Heavy Attack builds
    -Warden Ults
    -Oak ring builds
    -DKs


    But the real problem is ball groups? Well, I guess it’s time for another round of pve nerfs, I guess.
  • JanTanhide
    JanTanhide
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    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Oh? Is that the problem in PvP?

    I thought it was;

    -Snipe
    -Cloak
    -Sorc pets
    -Arcanists
    -Tanks
    -Heals
    -Heavy Attack builds
    -Warden Ults
    -Oak ring builds
    -DKs


    But the real problem is ball groups? Well, I guess it’s time for another round of pve nerfs, I guess.

    Yep. It never ends. The PVP crowd constantly wants nerfs. Sigh.
  • Gabriel_H
    Gabriel_H
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    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Oh? Is that the problem in PvP?

    I thought it was;

    -Snipe
    -Cloak
    -Sorc pets
    -Arcanists
    -Tanks
    -Heals
    -Heavy Attack builds
    -Warden Ults
    -Oak ring builds
    -DKs


    But the real problem is ball groups? Well, I guess it’s time for another round of pve nerfs, I guess.

    Naked PvP slap fights are clearly the only answer!
  • Soraka
    Soraka
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    Pillow fight mode please
  • weights44
    weights44
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    I would totally be down for a bare knuckle skill tree.
  • Four_Fingers
    Four_Fingers
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    Yeah, it is rough squeezing 30 into a 12 man group! :D
  • CrazyKitty
    CrazyKitty
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    gronoxvx wrote: »
    Sounds like a zerg more than a ballgroup tbh. Especially if its more than 12.

    Hope they do more to stop zerging

    It's a ball group of more than 12 players. This is easy enough to do with discord coms. And it's the same 3 or so guild leads engaging in the toxic behavior on a daily basis. They know exactly what they're doing.
    Yeah, it is rough squeezing 30 into a 12 man group! :D

    Edited by CrazyKitty on 13 November 2024 21:56
  • Jaraal
    Jaraal
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    With current faction pop caps in the 60-80 player range, the best strategy when '30 man ball groups' are terrorizing you is to start lighting and taking their back keeps, while they are running around farming you in your own unlit keep. Zone chat really starts to light up when you're losing all your keeps because half of your population is farming in an enemy controlled keep. ;)
    RIP Bosmer Nation. 4/4/14 - 2/25/19.
  • Gabriel_H
    Gabriel_H
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    Jaraal wrote: »
    With current faction pop caps in the 60-80 player range, the best strategy when '30 man ball groups' are terrorizing you is to start lighting and taking their back keeps, while they are running around farming you in your own unlit keep. Zone chat really starts to light up when you're losing all your keeps because half of your population is farming in an enemy controlled keep. ;)

    Collective IQ drops by 50% in a mob mentality.
  • Taril
    Taril
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    I think the issue is... What do you even do about this?

    Realistically, the problem of ball groups is systematic of the game mode itself.

    Like you could nerf crosshealing and shields to be literally worthless... But that won't make ball groups any less effective, all it would do is push people towards stacking classes that have strong self heals/shields like Sorc, DK and Warden.

    You buff up siege so it's way more devastating... Then you NEED a ball group to do anything because anything less would get omegadestroyed by the same siege.

    You could buff smaller groups so they get Volundrung levels of power to contest ball groups... But then you'd just get ball groups of unteamed people being co-ordinated much the same as these 12+ player ball groups, only now even more powerful (Unless you can somehow figure out how to accurately scale the power based on nearby allies)

    It's almost like there's a reason why literally every PvP game revolves around fixed team sizes (Even large scale ones like Battlefield, Planetside, Verdun etc).

    This style of open world PvP with dynamic team sizes simply lends itself to ball group metas. Having numbers advantages is just the best strategy, even more so if they're even slightly co-ordinated.
  • gronoxvx
    gronoxvx
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    Taril wrote: »
    I think the issue is... What do you even do about this?

    Realistically, the problem of ball groups is systematic of the game mode itself.

    Like you could nerf crosshealing and shields to be literally worthless... But that won't make ball groups any less effective, all it would do is push people towards stacking classes that have strong self heals/shields like Sorc, DK and Warden.

    You buff up siege so it's way more devastating... Then you NEED a ball group to do anything because anything less would get omegadestroyed by the same siege.

    You could buff smaller groups so they get Volundrung levels of power to contest ball groups... But then you'd just get ball groups of unteamed people being co-ordinated much the same as these 12+ player ball groups, only now even more powerful (Unless you can somehow figure out how to accurately scale the power based on nearby allies)

    It's almost like there's a reason why literally every PvP game revolves around fixed team sizes (Even large scale ones like Battlefield, Planetside, Verdun etc).

    This style of open world PvP with dynamic team sizes simply lends itself to ball group metas. Having numbers advantages is just the best strategy, even more so if they're even slightly co-ordinated.

    Plus any nerf to what people deem as "ball groups" actively effects any kind of grouping. Even small scaling (except for maybe a duo), so once the ball groups are gone the next thing people will cry about is any sort of grouping in general as they will become the new "ball group".
  • Gabriel_H
    Gabriel_H
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    Taril wrote: »
    I think the issue is... What do you even do about this?

    It's a huge map. Be where they aren't. Hit and run guerrilla warfare.

  • gronoxvx
    gronoxvx
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    Gabriel_H wrote: »
    Taril wrote: »
    I think the issue is... What do you even do about this?

    It's a huge map. Be where they aren't. Hit and run guerrilla warfare.

    Shhhhh. We want people to continue believing theres no counter play to ball groups 😂
  • Deimus
    Deimus
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    We've been discussing them for years now.

    It's time for ZOS to make a clear statement addressing if ballgroups fit their vision of Cyrodiil or not. If not they need to communicate their intentions to correct this exploitative gameplay, and if ballgroups fit their vision then players can choose where to spend their free time in a more informed manner.
  • spartaxoxo
    spartaxoxo
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    They aren't going to tell people not to group up in Cyrodiil. Fundamentally, you can't punish people for grouping up and coordinating in a game mode that allows grouping. And having a numbers advantage is always going to be inherently better than not having one.
  • SalamanNZ
    SalamanNZ
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    Why have I never seen 2 ball groups come across each other in Cyrodill? I assume it does happen though??
  • darvaria
    darvaria
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    ZOS will never fix this. I would take care in even bringing this topic up. You are opening yourself up to harassment and it will do no good. There are "reasons" I've been informed that ZOS won't do anything to weaken ball groups. Best advice is just stay clear of them and do BG's until they leave Cyrodiil. I barely go to Cyrodiil anymore ... this is NEVER getting fixed. The only "fix" would be for all of EP to either transfer or just not go to Cyrodiil.

    Check the ball group schedules and if you are a solo player or small man guild, transfer to either AD or DC.
    Edited by darvaria on 14 November 2024 04:11
  • TX12001rwb17_ESO
    TX12001rwb17_ESO
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    Simple solution, make Seige weapons deal more damage for each enemy hit within it's radius.
  • Vulkunne
    Vulkunne
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    OP, thank you for sharing your experiences, unfortunately it's been a shared experience for me as well, others too out there who have also said similar.

    I've been a regular PvPer in Cyrodiil up until recent years. More and more over time I've distanced myself from Cyrodiil PvP for similar reasons and for other reasons too. At this point, coming from a very mature and unbiased mindset when regarding the problems facing Cyrodiil PvP in this game, I am not seeing a light at the end of the tunnel. This isn't a 'goodbye' post but there are some facts we need to face. Now I used to play New World for a while, but the PvP environment there is even worse and add to that it very quickly became very very top-heavy. So if you don't know anyone or you're not with a PvP Company/Guild then you're wasting your time PvPing. I mention this because I've noticed Cyrodiil PvP is moving from protecting or fighting for the faction and becoming all about the PvP Guild(s) and especially the ball groups.

    It's time to face facts and not really just giving up to the things we don't like but understanding what PvP Guilds and other players have done themselves to make the game what it is. In short, Cyrodiil PvP is all about them. I am not afraid to face anyone's criticism or harassment for saying that. But its true, you all know its true. If you're not part of the Guild or Ball Group, you're just 'there'. No one wants you around and they will tell you that. There is no fix for this and in fairness, it would be probably hard for ZOS to fix something players have done and will keep doing. Ball Groups are a way to troll others, its great for folks who want attention, its something exclusive and a reminder that you and I are not one of 'them'. They care very little for actual PvP goals and abuse things like the scrolls and so forth which makes it hard for the 'faction' to accomplish its goals because these guys are always in the way. Most of the time.

    This is why ESO PvP is dying, but it won't die out completely. It will linger on in a manner same as New World. Now that the Ball Groups and the PvP Guilds (who maintain them) are taking complete ownership of all the power in PvP, the gameplay is now almost completely centered around them. And this is what happens when there is no longer healthy competition or checks and balances in place. And those that have this power don't want to give it up. They like looking down on everyone else. They love it and the one thing they don't love is you or me or the faction itself. The spirit of Cyrodiil PvP and what it once was is pretty much gone. Now its just like New World Companies fighting for points or bragging rights now or so they can sit around and talk about how they're 'better' than or maybe just a 'cut above' the rest of us.

    Solos with valuable builds, knowledge and experience aren't valued, often in zone we're told we don't belong and are not welcome with the faction. A Guild Officer from an AD PvP Guild on Blackreach (name starts with a 'W') said basically as much in zone chat a couple weeks ago. Guess I can't name the guild completely but they're not very nice and PvPing anymore in Cyrodiil is futile unless you're in an organized group but that's not my thing and I'm not going to play their game. Groups for the sake of groups don't always work out and sometimes being in a group doesn't help in fact sometimes playing solo can accomplish more than waiting on a group to decide to do things when all they want is a quick siege and half the group doesn't really care. They just along for the ride and I don't have time to make up everyone's mind for them.
    Edited by Vulkunne on 15 November 2024 13:48
    A sword-day, a red day, ere the sun rises!!!
  • Turtle_Bot
    Turtle_Bot
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    Vulkunne wrote: »
    Solos with valuable builds, knowledge and experience aren't valued, often in zone we're told we don't belong and are not welcome with the faction.

    This is putting it extremely nicely.
  • heaven13
    heaven13
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    Vulkunne wrote: »
    This is why ESO PvP is dying, but it won't die out completely. It will linger on in a manner same as New World. Now that the Ball Groups and the PvP Guilds (who maintain them) are taking complete ownership of all the power in PvP, the gameplay is now almost completely centered around them. And this is what happens when there is no longer healthy competition or checks and balances in place. And those that have this power don't want to give it up. They like looking down on everyone else. They love it and the one thing they don't love is you or me or the faction itself. The spirit of Cyrodiil PvP and what it once was is pretty much gone. Now its just like New World Companies fighting for points or bragging rights now or so they can sit around and talk about how they're 'better' than or maybe just a 'cut above' the rest of us.
    Snipped for brevity

    I have to say I am not a fan of ball groups, however, your experience hasn't been the same as mine. I never group in PvP (unless briefly for scroll quests or something). I go help where I can so it's not like I'm riding around picking wildflowers and ignoring the actual PvP but I'm definitely not joining groups and certainly not in any guilds. I've never been told off for it, I've never had my faction group around me and literally do nothing because I wasn't part of their group. I'm often rezzed by people in keep fights that I don't even know. I get "thanks" or nice whisper/says when I do the same.

    I was told off, once, for using someone's siege but that was one of my very first times in Cyrodiil - I had just done the tutorial where siege is already placed and did not realize that siege after that was bought/placed by players. Since then, I've gone by the "don't touch unless you're invited to" mentality; if I put out more siege than I control, I say in chat for people to use because I operate the same way. It's the etiquette I learned at the beginning and it's still the etiquette I follow.

    But otherwise, I have not experienced the toxic mentality you have. No, ball groups are not fun to deal with (and, to be honest, I don't really get the appeal of playing in them either) but it's not for the reasons you stated.
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  • Valentyne
    Valentyne
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    Ballgroups aren't the issue. On Ps5 NA server there is MAYBE 4 actual ballgroups and they barely even play outside of prime time. The issue is the game is old and everyone is playing tank builds because they are now scared to die in a PvP mode. Ballgroups coordinate sets and are 100% killable at any given time. The problem is 99% of Cyrodil is either playing tanks or tarnished nightblades that have 0 chance at killing anyone unless they are zerging.

    Play Negates, play supports, get off the awful youtube builds.

    Thanks for coming to my ted talk.
    SIR BUNS OF THE EP FIREFIGHTERS
    PS5 - NA SERVER - GREYHOST
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  • sbialkow
    sbialkow
    Yah the AD ball groups are hard. You just have to pick off the stragglers one at a time, assuming the camps have been found and burned. It takes a while and there will be plenty of losses. Just keep the camps up and res your fellow soldiers!
    Light armored MagBlade, Mag Templar (healer), MagSorc, Hybrid DK, MagDen, and MagCro.
  • Jabbs_Giggity
    Jabbs_Giggity
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    JanTanhide wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Oh? Is that the problem in PvP?

    I thought it was;

    -Snipe
    -Cloak
    -Sorc pets
    -Arcanists
    -Tanks
    -Heals
    -Heavy Attack builds
    -Warden Ults
    -Oak ring builds
    -DKs


    But the real problem is ball groups? Well, I guess it’s time for another round of pve nerfs, I guess.

    Yep. It never ends. The PVP crowd constantly wants nerfs. Sigh.

    Honestly, I don't think it's so much about nerfs as it is adjustments needed for a playstyle that has no counter. All known counters have been nerfed, further buffing this playstyle.

    Maybe these sets and skills that all BG's use, such as Snowtreaders, Echoing Vigot, etc. need the Rallying Cry treatment where the more people in your group the less effective they are.
    Moderate it through Battle Spirit, as many others have mentioned. Go a step further as one post suggested and use Roles to effectively balance PVP.
    Healers get full access to healing (AOE) and Shields (AOE), at reduced damage with a health cap and resistance cap.
    DPS'ers get full access to damage, at reduced healing (AOE) and Shields (AOE) with a health cap and resistance cap.
    TAnks get full access to building into health and resistance, but have reduced damage and healing (AOE) and Shields (AOE), but get a recovery bonus.

    The biggest issue with PVP is that there is no defined role and/or build style. Wardens can effectively make 40K+ HP with 39K+ Resistance builds that still outperform other classes in ST or AOE healing, while STILL outperforming in DPS.

    Sets like Nibanay Bay is one of the newest attractions to BG's that have nerfed counterplay with pull skills they have ramped up in recent patches.

    Until ZOS, at the very least, publicly address the concerns people are coming to the forums about the SAME issue...PVP will continue to dwindle and pop caps will never reach healthy levels, regardless of server fixes or not. Aside from server performance, BG's is the #1 deterrent to AVA PVP. Next is attainable builds that do not sacrifice 1:1:1 being DPS:Healing:Tankiness.
  • Four_Fingers
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    More like the SAME people than the SAME issue.
    Edited by Four_Fingers on 17 November 2024 15:24
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