BG Leaderboard top players are all healers

IncultaWolf · October 29

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Good Morning, All. We are following up on the reports here of healers gaining the top spots on the Battlegrounds Leaderboards. We have identified this is not working as intended. We have also identified the bug causing this issue for healers scoring above and beyond intended. We are working toward a fix now for a future incremental.

Once this is resolved, we will reset the leaderboards.

@ZOS_Kevin And what about the issue that was brought up Week 1 of PTS, where Necromancers and Shielders are not climbing leaderboards very much at all due to Pet Damage, Pet Healing, and Shielding done not counting for anything? The issues go hand in hand with the healer crit heal medals. If you fix one but not the other, the leaderboards are still meaningless because they'll still be skewed towards some builds.

Agreed. The medal system needs a few additions to count for shielding and pet damage/heals. I really want to play my necromancer, but I know I won't get far up on the leaderboard because of those issues.

@ZOS_Kevin

Einar_Hrafnarsson · October 29

Why not just turn PvP into a DPS mode only like Final Fantasy 14 Did? If you all hate support Roles so much just remove them.

Aldoss · October 29

@ZOS_Kevin, I'm currently maining a necro support healer.

It's really frustrating to end a match and see that my healing is on par with a warden DD, but when I look at my cmx stats post match, my mender is always my top heal, doing 20+% of my total healing. There are some matches where I'm losing out on 500-750k healing numbers just from mender.

Additionally, it's frustrating that I'll lose out on credit for anywhere between 500-1.5M of blastbones dmg.

This makes necro seem weak or non-contributory to the team's overall success to people who are not aware of the unique way that this game calculates and grants points to players.

This isn't a new thing. We've been talking about this for years. Why is this never addressed? To my knowledge, no one from ZOS has ever even acknowledged it, let alone provide an explanation as to why the game doesn't credit the caster for these stats.

Please don't just "correct" the "bug" by lowering the critical heal medal. The medal scoring system needs to be accessible to all players, necros and shielders included.

SkaraMinoc · October 29

Highest medal score 24200 on a Bird Sorc. They had 2 deaths so they could've scored higher.

ruskiii · October 29

Major_Mangle wrote: »

What´s even more scuffed is the fact that there is only one leaderboard. If you gonna have separate "competitive" queues for solo and group you should also have separate leaderboards.

Don't forget that's one leaderboard for solo, group and under 50s! Why bother being competitive at all when you can farm under 50s, like we know there are people who live down there and they get rewarded with leaderboard positions. Makes the entire competitive leaderboard pointless.

gariondavey · October 29

For a company that values diversity, equity and inclusion, it is surprising that the medal system really punishes the marginalized groups.

Estin · October 30

I am of the opinion that group healing needs to be cut by at least 90% in BGs. Currently, if 1 team has a healer, it's an instant win. Nobody can die and it leaves people free to spam their attacks without fear of death. If both teams have a healer, it comes down to which team has more, or else it's a stalemate.

Ren_TheRedFox · October 30

@Estin sry to say this but that sounds insane ... you can't get rid of healing in BGs no matter what. If anything reduce the crosshealing or get rid of all the heals that scale of max hp so you don't have high hp warden healers all over the place. If a team has a healer you can still burst them down with proper dps.

Estin · October 30

Ren_TheRedFox wrote: »

@Estin sry to say this but that sounds insane ... you can't get rid of healing in BGs no matter what. If anything reduce the crosshealing or get rid of all the heals that scale of max hp so you don't have high hp warden healers all over the place. If a team has a healer you can still burst them down with proper dps.

Reducing group healing is the same as reducing crosshealing, unless you meant healstacking which is another problem entirely. It's the act of being able to heal yourself and friendly players at the same time for the full tooltip amount. Either way, something needs to be done with how strong healing is. I'm not suggesting for group healing to be completely removed, only heavily reduced so it's not the deciding factor for a win. The way it is now, just 1 healer is enough to keep a full team of 8 alive, doubly so if those members do use their own self heals. I don't ever recall BGs feeling this awful when it came to healing, whether it's your team or the other's. The two team setup really exacerbated the problem.

Einar_Hrafnarsson · October 30

Estin wrote: »

I am of the opinion that group healing needs to be cut by at least 90% in BGs. Currently, if 1 team has a healer, it's an instant win. Nobody can die and it leaves people free to spam their attacks without fear of death. If both teams have a healer, it comes down to which team has more, or else it's a stalemate.

That is what a healer is FOR duh... to keep people alive. But usually no one wants to play Healer anymore because they already get nerfed frequently. One of the Reasons i barely play anymore and quit my ESO plus.

When you are done being selfish, you could try playing a healer yourself!

Estin · October 30

Einar_Hrafnarsson wrote: »

Estin wrote: »

I am of the opinion that group healing needs to be cut by at least 90% in BGs. Currently, if 1 team has a healer, it's an instant win. Nobody can die and it leaves people free to spam their attacks without fear of death. If both teams have a healer, it comes down to which team has more, or else it's a stalemate.

That is what a healer is FOR duh... to keep people alive. But usually no one wants to play Healer anymore because they already get nerfed frequently. One of the Reasons i barely play anymore and quit my ESO plus.

When you are done being selfish, you could try playing a healer yourself!

That should be the case if they're balanced, but they're not. Self healing is already strong, but a dedicated healer can make your team immortal in the new BGs. They're far too overtuned. If your team doesn't have a healer and the other team does, you've already lost the match before it begins. Even just having 1 templar with cleansing ritual is enough to give your team a huge advantage because the heal over time is strong.

Ren_TheRedFox · October 30

@Estin, to be fair ... it's the current meta's fault ... a healer should buff party members and focus on keeping those buffs and HP bars up naturally. Unfortunately, most healers in the current meta only wear selfish sets and selfish skills that focus on raw healing instead of utility.
But I agree that we need a healing debuff in the game, at least in PvP ... I made a post a long time ago about healing received where I said that for every 5k HP you get a 2% healing debuff, so characters like a 40k warden would get a 16% additional healing debuff on top of the 55% from Battle Spirit to make them less tanky. This would also fix the cross healing issue because you get less healing this way and you don't have to worry about reworking all the skills again.

xylena_lazarow · October 30

Give everyone in BGs the Pale Order Ring effect.

Joy_Division · October 30

Estin wrote: »

I am of the opinion that group healing needs to be cut by at least 90% in BGs. Currently, if 1 team has a healer, it's an instant win. Nobody can die and it leaves people free to spam their attacks without fear of death. If both teams have a healer, it comes down to which team has more, or else it's a stalemate.

Just delete a whole playstyle?

The reason healers and healing are so strong is twofold:

1 - ESO's current design of play how you want makes it so healers are also incredibly tanky
2 - After a decade of PvPers complaining to ZOS to nerf whatever kills them, now we are all stuck with ineffective skills that are incapable of doing enough damage to offset all the powerful healing

Stalemates are incredibly boring and the combat in this game is incredibly frustrating no matter where you go. In Cyrodiil, tower humpers and ball groups don't die either. The solution to this issue is not to remove a playstyle that many people enjoy playing, but to ensure the other playstyles people enjoy (i.e., damage) can compete and properly counter that.

Necrotech_Master · October 30

Ren_TheRedFox wrote: »

Estin, to be fair ... it's the current meta's fault ... a healer should buff party members and focus on keeping those buffs and HP bars up naturally. Unfortunately, most healers in the current meta only wear selfish sets and selfish skills that focus on raw healing instead of utility.
But I agree that we need a healing debuff in the game, at least in PvP ... I made a post a long time ago about healing received where I said that for every 5k HP you get a 2% healing debuff, so characters like a 40k warden would get a 16% additional healing debuff on top of the 55% from Battle Spirit to make them less tanky. This would also fix the cross healing issue because you get less healing this way and you don't have to worry about reworking all the skills again.

major defile already does -16% healing and dmg shield size lol, just applying major and minor defile is -24% healing and dmg shield size, on top of the battle spirit debuffs

even that hardly dents healing though mostly because of cross healing just stacking so much

12x 2000 heal per sec (after battle spirit) is already 24,000 heal per second equivalent, if you get defiles on you thats -24% of the 2000 per heal, which is -480 per heal stack

12*1520 heal per sec is still 18,240 heal per second equivalent

applying an additional healing penalty for how much hp you have i dont think would really matter, even if that stacks with defiles that would be (using your example) -40% combined healing after battle spirit, which for an organized group would still be over 10,000 heal per second assuming they dont cleanse defiles

the healing wouldnt be quite that high in BGs due to less people and less organization, but at this point might as well bring back cp1.0 node that buffed defiles, un-nerf defile, and un-nerf sets like fasallas guile for true anti-healing instead of applying a per person scaling debuff

Aldoss · October 30

Einar_Hrafnarsson wrote: »

Estin wrote: »

I am of the opinion that group healing needs to be cut by at least 90% in BGs. Currently, if 1 team has a healer, it's an instant win. Nobody can die and it leaves people free to spam their attacks without fear of death. If both teams have a healer, it comes down to which team has more, or else it's a stalemate.

That is what a healer is FOR duh... to keep people alive. But usually no one wants to play Healer anymore because they already get nerfed frequently. One of the Reasons i barely play anymore and quit my ESO plus.

When you are done being selfish, you could try playing a healer yourself!

I've been a BG PvP healer for the last two patches. I think healing needs some serious tuning.

The cross healing capability is just way too strong. A warden running nothing but polar wind and leeching vines can finish a BG with 500-700k in cross healing as a DD.

It's not about removing the playstyle of a healer. It's about limiting the total amount of cross heals that create this stalemate meta. If I start to get focused, my magden DD wife can spam polar and get 14k crit heals on me. That's absurd. Why should a DD be able to save me like that?

Ren_TheRedFox · October 30

They have to get rid of the second target burst heals in general after this patch ... no need to have a bird healing 2 targets neither a polar wind nor a necro doing the same thing ... just get rid of it

CameraBeardThePirate · October 30

Ren_TheRedFox wrote: »

They have to get rid of the second target burst heals in general after this patch ... no need to have a bird healing 2 targets neither a polar wind nor a necro doing the same thing ... just get rid of it

To be fair basically no one uses the Blood Sacrifice morph of the Necro burst heal lol

Ren_TheRedFox · October 30

@CameraBeardThePirate hehe I know but just in general get rid of 2 targets for a burst heal ... there's no reason to have it

Aldoss · October 30

Ren_TheRedFox wrote: »

They have to get rid of the second target burst heals in general after this patch ... no need to have a bird healing 2 targets neither a polar wind nor a necro doing the same thing ... just get rid of it

Generally I agree, but I think that there's a time and a place for mechs like healing multiple targets to come into play for the sake of skill and fun.

Since you mentioned Necro, Blood Sacrifice is actually really interesting to play with specifically because of how the heal works with the corpse mechanic. That obviously falls short when you realize that a sorcs bird heal costs less (marginally), covers an area 633% larger, can heal teammates behind walls, and doesn't require a non-moving object to gain the ability to heal a second target. Bird needs to be double barred, so maybe that helps, but really, it's such a powerful heal in BGs.

There really should be a lot less burst heals that don't need to be aimed.

Ren_TheRedFox · October 30

@Aldoss even in the old 4v4v4s the double target burst heals were too strong ... yes the bird has to be double slotted but it's worth it cause it's a guaranteed heal for 2 targets with a great range. In the 4v4s now u really don't wanna have the two target burst heals cause they just close a burst dps window for 2 targets. They just have to get rid of the two target skills.

Estin · October 30

Joy_Division wrote: »

Estin wrote: »

I am of the opinion that group healing needs to be cut by at least 90% in BGs. Currently, if 1 team has a healer, it's an instant win. Nobody can die and it leaves people free to spam their attacks without fear of death. If both teams have a healer, it comes down to which team has more, or else it's a stalemate.

Just delete a whole playstyle?

The reason healers and healing are so strong is twofold:

1 - ESO's current design of play how you want makes it so healers are also incredibly tanky
2 - After a decade of PvPers complaining to ZOS to nerf whatever kills them, now we are all stuck with ineffective skills that are incapable of doing enough damage to offset all the powerful healing

Stalemates are incredibly boring and the combat in this game is incredibly frustrating no matter where you go. In Cyrodiil, tower humpers and ball groups don't die either. The solution to this issue is not to remove a playstyle that many people enjoy playing, but to ensure the other playstyles people enjoy (i.e., damage) can compete and properly counter that.

Again, I never suggested for group healing to be removed. It just needs to be heavily nerfed. A healer should be there help keep the group alive, not immortal. On my stamplar with only 4000 w/s damage on my defensive backbar, I am able to heal people for over 10k with honor the dead. Cleansing ritual is healing around 2000 or so, wasn't really keeping an eye on that one. I'm able to keep myself alive against an entire team of 8 for good amount of time if I can get every buff up. Already that is absurd amount of healing. Now factor in somebody who's an actual healer and I would be immortal because their heals are going to be 100% of their tooltip.

Something has to be done about group/cross healing. Somebody already did the math to show that defile is hardly going to put a dent into healing done. This could be as simple as "While under the effects of battlespirit in BGs, reduce healing done to allies by an additional 50%+", though I still think 90% is ideal since dedicated heals are absurdly strong. Something to be enough to help your group, but not automatically guarantee victory from the start. It's up for debate whether it should be the same in cyrodiil/IC. The issue there is healstacking which also needs to be addressed.

Having more numbers on your side is usually a way to have an advantage over a team with a healer, but in BGs, you have equal numbers, so the only way you can push past teams with a healer is if they start scattering which only happens if that team has inexperienced players.

Einar_Hrafnarsson · October 31

I do not understand why people do not get it. Not the Actual Healers are the problem. The problem is that DPS can heal themselves way to much. One of the Flaws of "play however you want" but who gets punished? Who gets nerfed all the time? The Healers.

Major_Mangle · October 31

Einar_Hrafnarsson wrote: »

I do not understand why people do not get it. Not the Actual Healers are the problem. The problem is that DPS can heal themselves way to much. One of the Flaws of "play however you want" but who gets punished? Who gets nerfed all the time? The Healers.

Pure healers are definitely a problem in the new format (still was in the old format). The problem with eso healing is that it has some of the lowest skill checks in the game (take that from someone who mained a healer in pve and pvp for years). Even an extremely mediocre/in-experienced healer have a disproportionately big impact on the outcome of a fight.

It's not a problem that people play healers, the problem is the sheer powercreep the game has received ever since Blackwood (around the time of hybridization) that allows for certain roles to overperform to levels that are unhealthy for the game.

Einar_Hrafnarsson · October 31

Major_Mangle wrote: »

Einar_Hrafnarsson wrote: »

I do not understand why people do not get it. Not the Actual Healers are the problem. The problem is that DPS can heal themselves way to much. One of the Flaws of "play however you want" but who gets punished? Who gets nerfed all the time? The Healers.

The problem with eso healing is that it has some of the lowest skill checks in the game (take that from someone who mained a healer in pve and pvp for years).

I respectfully disagree. Try to heal your entire Team when there is 2 or more even remotely decent DPS on your Tail harrassing/killing you. Inexperienced Healers just die instantly and experienced Healers will attempt to hug walls/pillars for as long as they can while their Team ignores them.

Several people that claimed that "Healing is oh so easy" had a bad wake up call when i told them to go try it themselves then.
Sure if you have a Team or group that actually helps or assists you, it is a whole lot easier but most people that complain about Healers, are usually the ones ignoring them and if you ignore the enemy Healer he can focus on his Team and, you guessed it, Heal.

CameraBeardThePirate · October 31

Einar_Hrafnarsson wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

Einar_Hrafnarsson wrote: »

I do not understand why people do not get it. Not the Actual Healers are the problem. The problem is that DPS can heal themselves way to much. One of the Flaws of "play however you want" but who gets punished? Who gets nerfed all the time? The Healers.

The problem with eso healing is that it has some of the lowest skill checks in the game (take that from someone who mained a healer in pve and pvp for years).

I respectfully disagree. Try to heal your entire Team when there is 2 or more even remotely decent DPS on your Tail harrassing/killing you. Inexperienced Healers just die instantly and experienced Healers will attempt to hug walls/pillars for as long as they can while their Team ignores them.

Several people that claimed that "Healing is oh so easy" had a bad wake up call when i told them to go try it themselves then.
Sure if you have a Team or group that actually helps or assists you, it is a whole lot easier.

If your team isn't protecting the healer, they're a bad team. Healers are generally the tankiest players on the team, and if you aren't the tankiest player on the team as a healer, you're building it wrong. A good healer is almost useless to focus because they're nigh immortal.

I'm also not sure why you're saying Healers have received a lot of nerfs recently, because they've received nothing but buffs for a couple years now.

Besides, the point of this post isn't even about nerfing Healers; it's about how the scoreboard/leaderboard system is broken and poorly designed.

xylena_lazarow · October 31

Einar_Hrafnarsson wrote: »

I do not understand why people do not get it.

You can be extremely effective as a PvP healer with less restriction on minmax, apm, reaction time, positioning, etc compared to DD players. Wear tanky high sustain gear, set a couple hots, slam the burst heal a dozen times, drop heal ult, rinse and repeat. Yeah skilled healers do better than this, but this much is generally enough to be effective, especially in stacks, where the sheer volume of healing throughput overpowers an absurd amount of incoming damage.

Meanwhile if a DD makes a mistake they miss the kill. Sure the heal stack keeps them alive, but they've failed at their job. The window for a kill is narrow, the margin of error is narrow, even with automation from RoA. Healing mistakes are frequently forgiven by the sheer volume of sticky passive healing effects.

manukartofanu · October 31

Einar_Hrafnarsson wrote: »

Why not just turn PvP into a DPS mode only like Final Fantasy 14 Did? If you all hate support Roles so much just remove them.

Nobody hate healers, but right now it is ridiculous. I just had a match with 2 flags, enemy team got 2 or 3 kills and all the other time they tried to heal each other and respawned (we had 10+ kills in the end). They've all got 1000+ medals, we had less than 750, despite the fact that they couldn't even score 50 points on the flag, so basically the game was one sided, and we won with a huge gap.