“Balance”

KromedeTheCorrupt · October 26

So is the only form of balance in eso just to nerf whatever set is popular at the moment until every new meta set is nerfed into the ground ?

Elsonso · October 26

KromedeTheCorrupt wrote: »

So is the only form of balance in eso just to nerf whatever set is popular at the moment until every new meta set is nerfed into the ground ?

Yes. Where "popular" equals "over performing" when compared to the rest.

If they buff everything to match the over performing stuff, then there is a power creep that has to be addressed at some point in the future.

That said, they should also be buffing under performing sets to bring them closer to the middle.

KromedeTheCorrupt · October 26

Elsonso wrote: »

KromedeTheCorrupt wrote: »

So is the only form of balance in eso just to nerf whatever set is popular at the moment until every new meta set is nerfed into the ground ?

Yes. Where "popular" equals "over performing" when compared to the rest.

If they buff everything to match the over performing stuff, then there is a power creep that has to be addressed at some point in the future.

That said, they should also be buffing under performing sets to bring them closer to the middle.

That’s the thing though nothing in this game gets buffs it’s all just nerfs. You say these sets are over performing and that just isn’t the case not for even a large majority of the sets that get nerfed. But that’s neither here nor there.

But you aren’t grasping the road their heading down. In their head whatever the next “Meta” set is it’s always going to be nerfed because their data tells them X set is being used by X amount of players. This isn’t going to stop until every set in the game is nerfed. Even sets that aren’t over performing it’s just the next bis even if it’s only by a couple thousand dmg.

This isn’t balance and serval MMOs has used this approach in the past and drove players away due to an constant fight between power and balance because the game developers don’t even understand their game since they don’t play it.

They read a chart and then make changes on the data they collected. That’s as far as it goes sadly.

Servadei · October 26

Yes. Put up with it or leave it. I chose the latter and maybe if enough people did then there might be change, but honestly why would ZOS change what they're doing if hordes of people still buy and chase the latest thing and it still rakes in the cash? It's a very good strategy for profit.

AcadianPaladin · October 26

Much the same can be said for skills.

I think a significant problem is the horrible insistence on trying to balance pvp and pve together instead of embracing that they are two different games.

Just one example area: As a PvE healer, I don't appreciate the nerfs to Earthgore or Winter's Respite so that instead of healing nearby allies, they only heal nearby group members. Much of my healing is done in large ungrouped gaggles such as dragon fights or dolmens and healing nearby allies is in no way 'overperforming' in PvE. All these nerfs did was discourage people from playing healers. I suspect the genesis for those nerfs came from PvP. I'm not trying to pick on PvP for I would feel equal sympathy for them eating nerfs focused on a PvE only problem.

The game has been trying to achieve 'balance' for how many years without separating PvE and PvP. How's that working out? Perhaps a different approach is worth considering?

sarahthes · October 26

Elsonso wrote: »

KromedeTheCorrupt wrote: »

So is the only form of balance in eso just to nerf whatever set is popular at the moment until every new meta set is nerfed into the ground ?

Yes. Where "popular" equals "over performing" when compared to the rest.

If they buff everything to match the over performing stuff, then there is a power creep that has to be addressed at some point in the future.

That said, they should also be buffing under performing sets to bring them closer to the middle.

If they want to stop power creep they need to stop adding more and more support sets each with a unique stacking or additive bonus. And things like banner, and the status effect and martial damage scribes.

Elsonso · October 26

sarahthes wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

KromedeTheCorrupt wrote: »

So is the only form of balance in eso just to nerf whatever set is popular at the moment until every new meta set is nerfed into the ground ?

Yes. Where "popular" equals "over performing" when compared to the rest.

If they buff everything to match the over performing stuff, then there is a power creep that has to be addressed at some point in the future.

That said, they should also be buffing under performing sets to bring them closer to the middle.

If they want to stop power creep they need to stop adding more and more support sets each with a unique stacking or additive bonus. And things like banner, and the status effect and martial damage scribes.

Oh, they can add all they want, but they should not enter the game being OP, especially if they end up nerfing them in a few patches. This presents the image that they are rolling out OPness to get sales, then rolling them back after they have everyone's money.

Hopefully, they are not doing that.

Nharimlur_Finor · October 26

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

Much the same can be said for skills.

I think a significant problem is the horrible insistence on trying to balance pvp and pve together instead of embracing that they are two different games.

Just one example area: As a PvE healer, I don't appreciate the nerfs to Earthgore or Winter's Respite so that instead of healing nearby allies, they only heal nearby group members. Much of my healing is done in large ungrouped gaggles such as dragon fights or dolmens and healing nearby allies is in no way 'overperforming' in PvE. All these nerfs did was discourage people from playing healers. I suspect the genesis for those nerfs came from PvP. I'm not trying to pick on PvP for I would feel equal sympathy for them eating nerfs focused on a PvE only problem.

The game has been trying to achieve 'balance' for how many years without separating PvE and PvP. How's that working out? Perhaps a different approach is worth considering?

Co-joined twins that need separating.
One will die in the process.

MidniteOwl1913 · October 26

Elsonso wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

KromedeTheCorrupt wrote: »

So is the only form of balance in eso just to nerf whatever set is popular at the moment until every new meta set is nerfed into the ground ?

Yes. Where "popular" equals "over performing" when compared to the rest.

If they buff everything to match the over performing stuff, then there is a power creep that has to be addressed at some point in the future.

That said, they should also be buffing under performing sets to bring them closer to the middle.

If they want to stop power creep they need to stop adding more and more support sets each with a unique stacking or additive bonus. And things like banner, and the status effect and martial damage scribes.

Oh, they can add all they want, but they should not enter the game being OP, especially if they end up nerfing them in a few patches. This presents the image that they are rolling out OPness to get sales, then rolling them back after they have everyone's money. Hopefully, they are not doing that.

I do think that that is what they are doing.

MidniteOwl1913 · October 26

KromedeTheCorrupt wrote: »

So is the only form of balance in eso just to nerf whatever set is popular at the moment until every new meta set is nerfed into the ground ?

There's a reason why every time the word "balance" passes ZOS's lips I cringe with dread. It *never* ends well.

sarahthes · October 27

Elsonso wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

KromedeTheCorrupt wrote: »

So is the only form of balance in eso just to nerf whatever set is popular at the moment until every new meta set is nerfed into the ground ?

Yes. Where "popular" equals "over performing" when compared to the rest.

If they buff everything to match the over performing stuff, then there is a power creep that has to be addressed at some point in the future.

That said, they should also be buffing under performing sets to bring them closer to the middle.

If they want to stop power creep they need to stop adding more and more support sets each with a unique stacking or additive bonus. And things like banner, and the status effect and martial damage scribes.

Oh, they can add all they want, but they should not enter the game being OP, especially if they end up nerfing them in a few patches. This presents the image that they are rolling out OPness to get sales, then rolling them back after they have everyone's money. Hopefully, they are not doing that.

If something adds damage for free, people will figure out a way to use it. All these buffs and things are way worse than proc sets for power creep.

o_Primate_o · October 27

ZOS' Formula
1. Introduce overpowered set - though not intended to be OP.
2. Players find a way to exploit it.
3. Players farm the heck out of it and its use is adopted widespread.
4. ZOS punishes players - not by balancing it, but by nerfing it to oblivion.

ChaoticWings3 · October 27

I don't think they intend to have sets be OP at the offset but the way it has been balanced thus far is not favorable to the community and it feels like it is attacking the fun in the game (which is a sentiment I see across the player base). If you haven't read this news article on the main home page of the ESO site I do recommend looking at it to understand the developer stance in balancing sets: https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/66841

I think they need to look at the other sets they have and see which sets could possibly offer alternatives to the set they plan to nerf and buff those sets to a degree that still maintains what they are trying to go for. I suggested in another post they should have at least 3 sets buff for every major nerf they do. Keep choices and build theories going instead of having everyone find a new cookie cutter build that will end up getting nerfed because of the overuse across the player base.

sayswhoto · October 27

There were dev interviews on this topic recently:

Can search for:
Developer Deep Dive—Item Sets Part 1
Developer Deep Dive—Item Sets Part 2

I don't think what's said in the interviews are the whole story, but it's at least what they can share.

DigiAngel · October 27

KromedeTheCorrupt wrote: »

So is the only form of balance in eso just to nerf whatever set is popular at the moment until every new meta set is nerfed into the ground ?

Yep! That's the cycle.....come out with new, paid, OP <insert class or set here>, then nerf it once ZoS comes out with the NEXT OP, paid new class/set....this continues to extract money from their players.

alpha_synuclein · October 27

Elsonso wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

KromedeTheCorrupt wrote: »

So is the only form of balance in eso just to nerf whatever set is popular at the moment until every new meta set is nerfed into the ground ?

Yes. Where "popular" equals "over performing" when compared to the rest.

If they buff everything to match the over performing stuff, then there is a power creep that has to be addressed at some point in the future.

That said, they should also be buffing under performing sets to bring them closer to the middle.

If they want to stop power creep they need to stop adding more and more support sets each with a unique stacking or additive bonus. And things like banner, and the status effect and martial damage scribes.

Oh, they can add all they want, but they should not enter the game being OP, especially if they end up nerfing them in a few patches. This presents the image that they are rolling out OPness to get sales, then rolling them back after they have everyone's money. Hopefully, they are not doing that.

They are doing exactly that. At least since the introduction of mythics.

carlos424 · October 27

Elsonso wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

KromedeTheCorrupt wrote: »

So is the only form of balance in eso just to nerf whatever set is popular at the moment until every new meta set is nerfed into the ground ?

Yes. Where "popular" equals "over performing" when compared to the rest.

If they buff everything to match the over performing stuff, then there is a power creep that has to be addressed at some point in the future.

That said, they should also be buffing under performing sets to bring them closer to the middle.

If they want to stop power creep they need to stop adding more and more support sets each with a unique stacking or additive bonus. And things like banner, and the status effect and martial damage scribes.

Oh, they can add all they want, but they should not enter the game being OP, especially if they end up nerfing them in a few patches. This presents the image that they are rolling out OPness to get sales, then rolling them back after they have everyone's money. Hopefully, they are not doing that.

Honestly, the short time that a particular set is slightly “overpowered,” is really when the game is at its most fun. What they can’t seem to understand (or maybe they do) is that no one, in the history of gaming, is happy to see their characters lose power. The whole point of playing role playing games is to see your characters progress.