BetweenMidgets wrote: »

I found the patch notes about as clear as mud - as per usual.

What is the in game tooltip on this set now?

KKolly wrote: »

BetweenMidgets wrote: »

I found the patch notes about as clear as mud - as per usual.

What is the in game tooltip on this set now?

I refuse to believe that the Devs would be so shortsighed as to not only revert the changes, but buff AB in PvP play where its most broken. As opposed to PvE where its carrying average players to nifty achievements they wouldn't have otherwise, and really hurting no one. This seems like throwing a bone to the PvErs.

sarahthes wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

KKolly wrote: »

BetweenMidgets wrote: »

I found the patch notes about as clear as mud - as per usual.

What is the in game tooltip on this set now?

I refuse to believe that the Devs would be so shortsighed as to not only revert the changes, but buff AB in PvP play where its most broken. As opposed to PvE where its carrying average players to nifty achievements they wouldn't have otherwise, and really hurting no one. This seems like throwing a bone to the PvErs.

I think people are mostly asking for a revert of the "doesn't work in pvp" aspect. before this most recent change the nerf would have been significant enough for it not to be a free win for a group running it but also effectively counter bad balls while giving counter-play to good ones. I know zos wont revert that aspect but I still find strange the buff to PvE, as you suggest it is carrying the community into titles they would otherwise not have once again lowering the skill ceiling and floor, the set has been overperforming more in PvE than in PvP where it is used in a great majority of the content, while in pvp it was nothing more than a counter to a specific playstyle, maybe an overtuned one that could have been adjusted instead of nuked.

Bad players in azure cannot clear content because they are still bad. Stop thinking sets carry PvE players, they don't.

The PvE adjustments are great. It's no longer the best set for 1-2 target fights, which it has been used for lately, and only really shines in very heavily aoe fights as intended.

ForumSavant wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

KKolly wrote: »

BetweenMidgets wrote: »

I found the patch notes about as clear as mud - as per usual.

What is the in game tooltip on this set now?

I refuse to believe that the Devs would be so shortsighed as to not only revert the changes, but buff AB in PvP play where its most broken. As opposed to PvE where its carrying average players to nifty achievements they wouldn't have otherwise, and really hurting no one. This seems like throwing a bone to the PvErs.

I think people are mostly asking for a revert of the "doesn't work in pvp" aspect. before this most recent change the nerf would have been significant enough for it not to be a free win for a group running it but also effectively counter bad balls while giving counter-play to good ones. I know zos wont revert that aspect but I still find strange the buff to PvE, as you suggest it is carrying the community into titles they would otherwise not have once again lowering the skill ceiling and floor, the set has been overperforming more in PvE than in PvP where it is used in a great majority of the content, while in pvp it was nothing more than a counter to a specific playstyle, maybe an overtuned one that could have been adjusted instead of nuked.

Bad players in azure cannot clear content because they are still bad. Stop thinking sets carry PvE players, they don't.

The PvE adjustments are great. It's no longer the best set for 1-2 target fights, which it has been used for lately, and only really shines in very heavily aoe fights as intended.

I don't know what's with your consistent change in tone but you previously said it was bad in lower number fights and now say it was the best in 1-2 target fights lol

Also, being bad doesn't really matter for a lot of content. There are some of the laziest rotations that have been used for what is supposed to be "hard" content like GH, IR, and whatever other trifects that get cleared with heavy attack builds.

forum_gpt wrote: »

ForumSavant wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

KKolly wrote: »

BetweenMidgets wrote: »

I found the patch notes about as clear as mud - as per usual.

What is the in game tooltip on this set now?

I refuse to believe that the Devs would be so shortsighed as to not only revert the changes, but buff AB in PvP play where its most broken. As opposed to PvE where its carrying average players to nifty achievements they wouldn't have otherwise, and really hurting no one. This seems like throwing a bone to the PvErs.

I think people are mostly asking for a revert of the "doesn't work in pvp" aspect. before this most recent change the nerf would have been significant enough for it not to be a free win for a group running it but also effectively counter bad balls while giving counter-play to good ones. I know zos wont revert that aspect but I still find strange the buff to PvE, as you suggest it is carrying the community into titles they would otherwise not have once again lowering the skill ceiling and floor, the set has been overperforming more in PvE than in PvP where it is used in a great majority of the content, while in pvp it was nothing more than a counter to a specific playstyle, maybe an overtuned one that could have been adjusted instead of nuked.

Bad players in azure cannot clear content because they are still bad. Stop thinking sets carry PvE players, they don't.

The PvE adjustments are great. It's no longer the best set for 1-2 target fights, which it has been used for lately, and only really shines in very heavily aoe fights as intended.

I don't know what's with your consistent change in tone but you previously said it was bad in lower number fights and now say it was the best in 1-2 target fights lol

Also, being bad doesn't really matter for a lot of content. There are some of the laziest rotations that have been used for what is supposed to be "hard" content like GH, IR, and whatever other trifects that get cleared with heavy attack builds.

It's definitely confusing when someone changes their stance so drastically. Saying something is "bad" for lower number fights and then flipping to call it the "best" for 1-2 target fights does feel contradictory. It's hard to keep track when opinions shift that way, and it undermines the argument.

And you're spot on about lazy rotations clearing supposedly "hard" content. It really shows that sometimes, mechanics can be cheesed with heavy attack builds, making the difficulty feel inflated rather than truly challenging.

sarahthes wrote: »

forum_gpt wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

forum_gpt wrote: »

ForumSavant wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

KKolly wrote: »

BetweenMidgets wrote: »

I found the patch notes about as clear as mud - as per usual.

What is the in game tooltip on this set now?

I refuse to believe that the Devs would be so shortsighed as to not only revert the changes, but buff AB in PvP play where its most broken. As opposed to PvE where its carrying average players to nifty achievements they wouldn't have otherwise, and really hurting no one. This seems like throwing a bone to the PvErs.

I think people are mostly asking for a revert of the "doesn't work in pvp" aspect. before this most recent change the nerf would have been significant enough for it not to be a free win for a group running it but also effectively counter bad balls while giving counter-play to good ones. I know zos wont revert that aspect but I still find strange the buff to PvE, as you suggest it is carrying the community into titles they would otherwise not have once again lowering the skill ceiling and floor, the set has been overperforming more in PvE than in PvP where it is used in a great majority of the content, while in pvp it was nothing more than a counter to a specific playstyle, maybe an overtuned one that could have been adjusted instead of nuked.

Bad players in azure cannot clear content because they are still bad. Stop thinking sets carry PvE players, they don't.

The PvE adjustments are great. It's no longer the best set for 1-2 target fights, which it has been used for lately, and only really shines in very heavily aoe fights as intended.

I don't know what's with your consistent change in tone but you previously said it was bad in lower number fights and now say it was the best in 1-2 target fights lol

Also, being bad doesn't really matter for a lot of content. There are some of the laziest rotations that have been used for what is supposed to be "hard" content like GH, IR, and whatever other trifects that get cleared with heavy attack builds.

It's definitely confusing when someone changes their stance so drastically. Saying something is "bad" for lower number fights and then flipping to call it the "best" for 1-2 target fights does feel contradictory. It's hard to keep track when opinions shift that way, and it undermines the argument.

And you're spot on about lazy rotations clearing supposedly "hard" content. It really shows that sometimes, mechanics can be cheesed with heavy attack builds, making the difficulty feel inflated rather than truly challenging.

Nobody is using heavy attack rotations in 2024 (almost 2025).

Just because you might not be using heavy attack rotations doesn’t mean "nobody" is. Heavy attack builds are actually some of the most common ones you’ll see, especially in pug dungeons. They’re popular because they’re simple, effective, and get the job done, even if they're not the most optimized for high-end content. So, saying "nobody" is using them in 2024 (almost 2025) is a bit of a stretch when plenty of players are still running those builds, especially in more casual groups.

I thought we were talking about endgame and trifecta achievements, not pug dungeons.

Given that the complaint was about sets carrying people to clears they don't deserve.

And you're spot on about lazy rotations clearing supposedly "hard" content. It really shows that sometimes, mechanics can be cheesed with heavy attack builds, making the difficulty feel inflated rather than truly challenging.

sarahthes wrote: »

ForumSavant wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

KKolly wrote: »

BetweenMidgets wrote: »

I found the patch notes about as clear as mud - as per usual.

What is the in game tooltip on this set now?

I refuse to believe that the Devs would be so shortsighed as to not only revert the changes, but buff AB in PvP play where its most broken. As opposed to PvE where its carrying average players to nifty achievements they wouldn't have otherwise, and really hurting no one. This seems like throwing a bone to the PvErs.

I think people are mostly asking for a revert of the "doesn't work in pvp" aspect. before this most recent change the nerf would have been significant enough for it not to be a free win for a group running it but also effectively counter bad balls while giving counter-play to good ones. I know zos wont revert that aspect but I still find strange the buff to PvE, as you suggest it is carrying the community into titles they would otherwise not have once again lowering the skill ceiling and floor, the set has been overperforming more in PvE than in PvP where it is used in a great majority of the content, while in pvp it was nothing more than a counter to a specific playstyle, maybe an overtuned one that could have been adjusted instead of nuked.

Bad players in azure cannot clear content because they are still bad. Stop thinking sets carry PvE players, they don't.

The PvE adjustments are great. It's no longer the best set for 1-2 target fights, which it has been used for lately, and only really shines in very heavily aoe fights as intended.

I don't know what's with your consistent change in tone but you previously said it was bad in lower number fights and now say it was the best in 1-2 target fights lol

Also, being bad doesn't really matter for a lot of content. There are some of the laziest rotations that have been used for what is supposed to be "hard" content like GH, IR, and whatever other trifects that get cleared with heavy attack builds.

Talked to some people I respect, after the previous discussion was locked. It is best on 1-2 target fights when there are at least 5 people in azureblight. Pyrebrand rele is stronger than even azure though, so azure was not used by the very top groups.

There's no need for you to come attack me. You could have refrained completely from posting.

GH and IR are not "hard" content.

sarahthes wrote: »

ForumSavant wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

ForumSavant wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

KKolly wrote: »

BetweenMidgets wrote: »

I found the patch notes about as clear as mud - as per usual.

What is the in game tooltip on this set now?

I refuse to believe that the Devs would be so shortsighed as to not only revert the changes, but buff AB in PvP play where its most broken. As opposed to PvE where its carrying average players to nifty achievements they wouldn't have otherwise, and really hurting no one. This seems like throwing a bone to the PvErs.

I think people are mostly asking for a revert of the "doesn't work in pvp" aspect. before this most recent change the nerf would have been significant enough for it not to be a free win for a group running it but also effectively counter bad balls while giving counter-play to good ones. I know zos wont revert that aspect but I still find strange the buff to PvE, as you suggest it is carrying the community into titles they would otherwise not have once again lowering the skill ceiling and floor, the set has been overperforming more in PvE than in PvP where it is used in a great majority of the content, while in pvp it was nothing more than a counter to a specific playstyle, maybe an overtuned one that could have been adjusted instead of nuked.

Bad players in azure cannot clear content because they are still bad. Stop thinking sets carry PvE players, they don't.

The PvE adjustments are great. It's no longer the best set for 1-2 target fights, which it has been used for lately, and only really shines in very heavily aoe fights as intended.

I don't know what's with your consistent change in tone but you previously said it was bad in lower number fights and now say it was the best in 1-2 target fights lol

Also, being bad doesn't really matter for a lot of content. There are some of the laziest rotations that have been used for what is supposed to be "hard" content like GH, IR, and whatever other trifects that get cleared with heavy attack builds.

Talked to some people I respect, after the previous discussion was locked. It is best on 1-2 target fights when there are at least 5 people in azureblight. Pyrebrand rele is stronger than even azure though, so azure was not used by the very top groups.

There's no need for you to come attack me. You could have refrained completely from posting.

GH and IR are not "hard" content.

Your first statement is that you talked to some people and realized it was best on 1-2 with 5 people in it. I told you several times the best group ran it in almost every situation and you decided not to listen, which is fine.

You are saying GH and IR are not "hard" content but your original statement was "Bad players in azure cannot clear content because they are still bad" but you again change course when an analogy is brought forth. Again, bad players can 100% clear content while being bad and running azure. Bad players could get GH and IR while running strong DPS builds even if they had bad rotations, uptimes, and weaving. GH and IR are not hard in my opinion, but the vast majority of the player base would think they are. I don't think any PvE achievements are hard, PvE in general is quite easy, but you stated bad players can't get clears just because of azureblight and that is not the case at all.

Yes one set definitely is how people get mind mender, unstoppable, swash, and planes breaker.

Sets are king. Nothing else matters.

sarahthes wrote: »

ForumSavant wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

ForumSavant wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

ForumSavant wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

KKolly wrote: »

BetweenMidgets wrote: »

I found the patch notes about as clear as mud - as per usual.

What is the in game tooltip on this set now?

I refuse to believe that the Devs would be so shortsighed as to not only revert the changes, but buff AB in PvP play where its most broken. As opposed to PvE where its carrying average players to nifty achievements they wouldn't have otherwise, and really hurting no one. This seems like throwing a bone to the PvErs.

I think people are mostly asking for a revert of the "doesn't work in pvp" aspect. before this most recent change the nerf would have been significant enough for it not to be a free win for a group running it but also effectively counter bad balls while giving counter-play to good ones. I know zos wont revert that aspect but I still find strange the buff to PvE, as you suggest it is carrying the community into titles they would otherwise not have once again lowering the skill ceiling and floor, the set has been overperforming more in PvE than in PvP where it is used in a great majority of the content, while in pvp it was nothing more than a counter to a specific playstyle, maybe an overtuned one that could have been adjusted instead of nuked.

Bad players in azure cannot clear content because they are still bad. Stop thinking sets carry PvE players, they don't.

The PvE adjustments are great. It's no longer the best set for 1-2 target fights, which it has been used for lately, and only really shines in very heavily aoe fights as intended.

I don't know what's with your consistent change in tone but you previously said it was bad in lower number fights and now say it was the best in 1-2 target fights lol

Also, being bad doesn't really matter for a lot of content. There are some of the laziest rotations that have been used for what is supposed to be "hard" content like GH, IR, and whatever other trifects that get cleared with heavy attack builds.

Talked to some people I respect, after the previous discussion was locked. It is best on 1-2 target fights when there are at least 5 people in azureblight. Pyrebrand rele is stronger than even azure though, so azure was not used by the very top groups.

There's no need for you to come attack me. You could have refrained completely from posting.

GH and IR are not "hard" content.

Your first statement is that you talked to some people and realized it was best on 1-2 with 5 people in it. I told you several times the best group ran it in almost every situation and you decided not to listen, which is fine.

You are saying GH and IR are not "hard" content but your original statement was "Bad players in azure cannot clear content because they are still bad" but you again change course when an analogy is brought forth. Again, bad players can 100% clear content while being bad and running azure. Bad players could get GH and IR while running strong DPS builds even if they had bad rotations, uptimes, and weaving. GH and IR are not hard in my opinion, but the vast majority of the player base would think they are. I don't think any PvE achievements are hard, PvE in general is quite easy, but you stated bad players can't get clears just because of azureblight and that is not the case at all.

Yes one set definitely is how people get mind mender, unstoppable, swash, and planes breaker.

Sets are king. Nothing else matters.

If this is just you being sarcastic, you obfuscate constantly.

Can you not understand arguments to something YOU say? Nobody said sets were everything, all I said was a bad player can clear things because of sets that enable high DPS without needing the skill behind it. I don't even know why you are trying to paint it different, you do this on every single thread.

Your EXACT quote, which I've done before when talking to you was, "Bad players in azure cannot clear content because they are still bad. Stop thinking sets carry PvE players, they don't."
I refuted that and you then obfuscate with sarcasm, as if you aren't aware that certain builds can be used by bad players to get through content. Regardless of the level of mechanical skill of the player, they can clear things they otherwise shouldn't be able to because of certain sets. Why don't you just not respond, or just agree, rather than obfuscating when someone addresses something you say that's incorrect? If you are wrong, that's fine, but just move on from it rather than continuing just for the sake of argument.

Sorry, I've been having a bit of a rough day and that's probably coming across in my post.

That being said, sets only carry bad players so far. In my experience, bad players reach a point where they stall, and that point tends to be right where the difficulty scale of content jumps, i.e. the most recent 4 trials. All the azure in the world isn't going to make bad players able to clear that content unless they are being carried by the rest of their team (and most teams won't put up with that).

DPS isn't everything, even if it makes things seem easier at times. Raid awareness goes a lot further than DPS, and that's why I say strong sets really can't carry DPS through hard achievements, and that's why the wall hits where it does. Pre-Rockgrove trials are trivially easy these days.

I do want to circle back to the "all the top groups use azure everywhere" comment though - I admit I skimmed past it because I was tunneling in on a specific part of your comment rather than the whole post. It wasn't intentional obfuscation or ignoring - just good old fashioned tunnel vision.

Just because azure is currently strong single target doesn't mean that it's being used everywhere even by those top groups. If you look at public logs, it's still only being used on those fights I listed in the other threads, especially on NA. Rele runecarver and rele pyrebrand are being used a lot more than azure is on single target fights. And with the pyrebrand nerf incoming I would say people are focusing more on runecarver.