glavius wrote: »

How does that work with new cloak toggle?
1: No projectile negation?
2: Negate 3 projectiles on toggle?
3: Negate 3 projectiles per magicka consumption?
4: Something else?

Another reason why stealth is completely broken. They get a free dodge roll basically whenever they stealth for no reason. All channeled abilities are broken all projectiles miss. God mode stealth invincibility must end.

On live, it is kinda hard to call it "negation".

The basic rule is that when it comes to DMG, only Direct DMG AOE breaks invisibility. Shooting bow LA at some one who is using cloak will for the most part (in a lag free environment) not connect with the target, and attacker will see "miss" over where the target was last seen.

Now the reason why I have said it is not a "negation" per say is that you can not aim a single target skill at an invisible target. That is why if you attacked the target before it went invisible - you were able to do that. But, since projectiles in ESO have travel time in an event of a target becoming invisible, projectile will "lose" the target (if it did not worked that way then 1 player could basically "stun lock" a NB, shutting down invisibility entirely with just LA Spam).

In Laggy environment, what can often happen is that projectiles can sometime work in an "unintended" way due to lag and server delays. What basically happens is that sometimes, server won't register NB's cloak animation to finish in time and on server side, NB is not invisible, while on client side it is for a 2 or 3 seconds (or more) already. So, if some one launched projectile at a NB that was invisible, but server did not register that yet, that Bow LA can break invisibility. That is why you often see NBs "spamming" cloak 2 or 3 times initially, to kinda "force" server to register their status as invisible and decreasing the likely-hood of invisibility bugging out.

Now, I am not sure how the Toggle Cloak will work exactly once on live server. I have tested it on PTS, but I have not PvP-ed there. But if experience is a teacher, then my guess is:
- Toggle skills tend to be very unreliable & clunky in lag. "Mend Wounds" skill is a toggle, so you may try & see how it behaves on live in a laggy Cyro. You will know what I mean.
- With cloak becoming toggle, it will be kinda impossible to do the trick with initial "spam cast" to decreasing the likely-hood of invisibility bugging out - Meaning that Cloak will be even more unreliable.
- From what I have tested, "transitioning" to crouch stealth from cloak is much harder on PTS vs Live. What I mean is that you have to "guess" if the crouching animation is finished and the "eye" is closed as same indicator is used for both invisibility & stealth. On live it is much easier since if you press crouch & then cast cloak it is basically done. On PTS, you will have to count to 3 & hope animation is finished. Also, as I mentioned before, toggle is way more clunky to use.
- With the Veiled Strike being an Assainaton skill, it can not be used to proc Shadow Barrier - a buff that is crucial for NBs. With cloak becoming a toggle, it will be also impossible to proc it since Cloak won't be casted every 3 seconds, but only once.

TLDR: Cloak will most likely still "negate" incoming projectiles, (or rather projectiles will lose you) but it will be way more unreliable than what we have now (so basically random). It just will be way more susceptible to lag. At least this is what I am thinking based on my experience.

Nathanbreakfast wrote: »

glavius wrote: »

How does that work with new cloak toggle?
1: No projectile negation?
2: Negate 3 projectiles on toggle?
3: Negate 3 projectiles per magicka consumption?
4: Something else?

Another reason why stealth is completely broken. They get a free dodge roll basically whenever they stealth for no reason. All channeled abilities are broken all projectiles miss. God mode stealth invincibility must end.

It's... Not free... It literally costs like 3k mag lol. It's basically a more powerful version of dodge when you aren't considering the invisible part.

Which is frankly how I tend to use cloak but I'm not a ganker.

For every "non ganker" NB, there's 10 perma-cloakers that solely play the class in stealth. It's an abused skill that's been in need of a change for years now. It's delusional to sit here and act like cloak isn't a problem in PVP.

Detect pots aren't sufficient when they have a cool down and NBs have access to so much healing and speed. This change brings much needed balance to a class that has been abused by beginner/intermediate players for years now. The class has more than enough utility to still perform at a high level with the change to Shadowy Disguise.

KingLewie_III wrote: »

For every "non ganker" NB, there's 10 perma-cloakers that solely play the class in stealth. It's an abused skill that's been in need of a change for years now. It's delusional to sit here and act like cloak isn't a problem in PVP.

Detect pots aren't sufficient when they have a cool down and NBs have access to so much healing and speed. This change brings much needed balance to a class that has been abused by beginner/intermediate players for years now. The class has more than enough utility to still perform at a high level with the change to Shadowy Disguise.

For now, everything is designed as perm claok exist, even the NB skill, the clumsy 0.6 sec incap, the only way land it is relied on re-position by cloak, on PTS, it almost useless

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

KingLewie_III wrote: »

For every "non ganker" NB, there's 10 perma-cloakers that solely play the class in stealth. It's an abused skill that's been in need of a change for years now. It's delusional to sit here and act like cloak isn't a problem in PVP.

Detect pots aren't sufficient when they have a cool down and NBs have access to so much healing and speed. This change brings much needed balance to a class that has been abused by beginner/intermediate players for years now. The class has more than enough utility to still perform at a high level with the change to Shadowy Disguise.

They have the same access to speed and healing as everyone else.

Let me ask you a couple questions.

What is perma cloak?

And what is stealth?

I'll await your answers.

This is simply not true. They are the only class that can acquire both Major and Minor Expedition from their class abilities on the same build (Sorc needs to pick between the two).

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

KingLewie_III wrote: »

For every "non ganker" NB, there's 10 perma-cloakers that solely play the class in stealth. It's an abused skill that's been in need of a change for years now. It's delusional to sit here and act like cloak isn't a problem in PVP.

Detect pots aren't sufficient when they have a cool down and NBs have access to so much healing and speed. This change brings much needed balance to a class that has been abused by beginner/intermediate players for years now. The class has more than enough utility to still perform at a high level with the change to Shadowy Disguise.

They have the same access to speed and healing as everyone else.

Let me ask you a couple questions.

What is perma cloak?

And what is stealth?

I'll await your answers.

This is simply not true. They are the only class that can acquire both Major and Minor Expedition from their class abilities on the same build (Sorc needs to pick between the two).

Every class can access major expedition one way or another. I use channeled acceleration. The only NBs who are running Path are likely not running channeled/race, which means they aren't getting the other benefits. It doesn't seem like most NBs run Path anyway.

That's a poor argument.

As far as minor expedition, it doesn't work the way you think it does. You don't become X% faster when you go on that bar in the way you think. It is hardly visually noticeable, if at all, that you are going faster. Don't believe me? Here you go.

No equipment on. No swift. No major expedition. Just CP. Flipping back and forth without sprinting.

https://youtu.be/eYrSMdqTVkc

StaticWave wrote: »

I wouldn't mind keeping old Cloak if skills like Camo Hunter or Inner Light weren't so useless. Apart from classes lacking a built-in source of Minor Berserk, Major Prophecy/Savagery, or specific builds like max mag stacking, I don't see any reason slotting them tbh. Imagine wasting a precious slot to counter 1 specific class.

Camo Hunter and Inner Light should do something more meaningful when activated along with revealing cloaked users. Take a look at Crit Rush/Ambush/Leash for example. These 3 skills are almost hard counters to Streaking, and apart from gap closing they also do extra damage on top, which can be useful vs non Streaking classes.

So instead of the current version, Camo Hunter/Inner Light could apply an AoE DoT that also reveals stealthing and cloaking players and preventing them from entering stealth for X seconds. The reveal mechanic activates whenever the DoT ticks, so there will be a 2 second window for NBs to leave its range. This makes the skill actually worth slotting imo.

Problem is that with camo and light if you tie any effect to the active portion of the skill, it would just turn into a normal buff skill. So everyone would be detecting off cooldown. Like if it grants a hot, I would just have it on constantly. You could tie a snare/root immunity to it without it being abused. However it would remove the counterplay options NBs have once they get uncloaked.

The only simple option is to add in more passive buffs to the skills.

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

KingLewie_III wrote: »

For every "non ganker" NB, there's 10 perma-cloakers that solely play the class in stealth. It's an abused skill that's been in need of a change for years now. It's delusional to sit here and act like cloak isn't a problem in PVP.

Detect pots aren't sufficient when they have a cool down and NBs have access to so much healing and speed. This change brings much needed balance to a class that has been abused by beginner/intermediate players for years now. The class has more than enough utility to still perform at a high level with the change to Shadowy Disguise.

They have the same access to speed and healing as everyone else.

Let me ask you a couple questions.

What is perma cloak?

And what is stealth?

I'll await your answers.

This is simply not true. They are the only class that can acquire both Major and Minor Expedition from their class abilities on the same build (Sorc needs to pick between the two).

Every class can access major expedition one way or another. I use channeled acceleration. The only NBs who are running Path are likely not running channeled/race, which means they aren't getting the other benefits. It doesn't seem like most NBs run Path anyway.

That's a poor argument.

As far as minor expedition, it doesn't work the way you think it does. You don't become X% faster when you go on that bar in the way you think. It is hardly visually noticeable, if at all, that you are going faster. Don't believe me? Here you go.

No equipment on. No swift. No major expedition. Just CP. Flipping back and forth without sprinting.

https://youtu.be/eYrSMdqTVkc

Gee it's almost like you didn't read my comment at all. Nightblade is the only class that can source both from class abilities.

Tons and tons of NBs run Path, especially if you're playing with other people, as it's one of the best HoTs in the game.

You're also completely wrong on the Minor expedition. No, you don't get faster when you flip to the bar with Concealed on it, because Concealed gives you Minor Expedition ON BOTH BARS.

Maybe try reading your tooltips and the comments that you reply to.

I'll happily take another video. I run surprise attack on my main character. The statement remains. You are simply trying to find something to go on about.

This what-a-boutism with some players is just sour grapes because their class isn't "overpowered" in their mind. Every class can be overpowered in their own way. You might not just like playing that specific set up.

But yes, let me hear again about the lie that is perma-cloak and how most people can't differentiate between stealth and invisibility.

You just want something to complain about. If you're running Path, you aren't running Channeled. If you aren't running Channeled, you don't get Force. So most NBs don't run Path, which puts them in the same position as Sorcs (since you brought them up). Run whatever you want. We can do a spreadsheet of what advantages each class has over other classes and you can act like those advantages are okay on those classes, but nightblades advantages are unfair.

ioResult wrote: »

KingLewie_III wrote: »

For every "non ganker" NB, there's 10 perma-cloakers that solely play the class in stealth. It's an abused skill that's been in need of a change for years now. It's delusional to sit here and act like cloak isn't a problem in PVP.

Detect pots aren't sufficient when they have a cool down and NBs have access to so much healing and speed. This change brings much needed balance to a class that has been abused by beginner/intermediate players for years now. The class has more than enough utility to still perform at a high level with the change to Shadowy Disguise.

You couldn't be more wrong. You people who have never played the class need to go learn how it works.

"Perma-cloakers" are literally just CROUCHING. They are not using ANY ability to do this. They LITERALLY just click the crouch button and stay crouched. This will not change one iota based on any changes to Nightblade's Shadowy Disguise ability.

Let me explain it to you:

To "cloak" a Nightblade hits Shadowy Disguise and THEN clicks the CROUCH button. They repeat this two button action each time they are pulled out of stealth.

When you see them "spamming" cloak, one of two different things is going on:

1) They are inexperienced at the class and the ability so much so that they think when they are revealed by a detect pot or other method of pulling them out of stealth (notice I didn't say "Cloak" there) that if they spam Shadowy Disguise over & over that they will become somehow invisible and get away. It literally doesn't work like that. Nowadays, unless you're really good at playing the class so as to make you slippery, you will die every single time as an inexperienced Nightblade.

2) They are a semi-experienced Nightblade who has never used an ability or Proc set that puts a DoT on the target but then they change their build to add a proc set or ability that puts a DoT on a target.

Now, this behavior applies to ANY PLAYER IN ANY CLASS nowadays since ZOS snuck this in without telling anyone realy about it.

But if you put a DoT on someone and tehn pop an invis pot, use Shadowy Disguise, crouch, whatever, to get into stealth, you WILL be pulled out of stealth EVERY TIME that DoT ticks on the target.

So you will see Nightblades trying to use Shadowy Disguise over & over because they cast it and crouch but all the sudden when the Shadowy Disguise ends, not only are they no longer in stealth but suddenly and unexpectedly they are also STANDING UP even though they were CROUCHING a second ago and didn't press the button to no longer be crouching. This was another unannounced nerf to stealth which ZOS didn't explain to anyone. And it applies to anyone in stealth for any reason, not just using Shadowy Disguise to crouch and sneak away.

So what's the point? Any player of any class can play stealthily once they learn how to CROUCH in the game. Bombers of all classes have done it for years. The yellow Emp of GH is a Sorc ganker who has mastered being stealthy, all the Heavy Attack DK Gankers that were running around before ZOS purposefully took away their playstyle had mastered being stealthy. They were "perma-cloaked" as you who are obviously unfamiliar with how to play stealthily love to say. But did they use the Nightblade ability to be able to safely crouch in combat and sneak around? NOPE

So, seriously, stop exaggerating the power of the Nightblade ability - which only shows you don't know how to play in stealth at all - just because you don't know the difference between crouching and casting an ability.

I've tried explaining this as well. People don't understand what stealth and invisibility are. They think you're just mashing cloak 24/7, as if anyone could sustain that (or it would be wise to do so).

there is so much confusion by non-NB players on how the class works and they get upset because of it. I understand how every class works (except arcanists because I don't have that) because I've played them all and that makes it easier to fight them. I know their weaknesses and strengths. The advantages they have over me and the disadvantages that I can expoit.

Bushido2513 wrote: »

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

ioResult wrote: »

KingLewie_III wrote: »

For every "non ganker" NB, there's 10 perma-cloakers that solely play the class in stealth. It's an abused skill that's been in need of a change for years now. It's delusional to sit here and act like cloak isn't a problem in PVP.

Detect pots aren't sufficient when they have a cool down and NBs have access to so much healing and speed. This change brings much needed balance to a class that has been abused by beginner/intermediate players for years now. The class has more than enough utility to still perform at a high level with the change to Shadowy Disguise.

You couldn't be more wrong. You people who have never played the class need to go learn how it works.

"Perma-cloakers" are literally just CROUCHING. They are not using ANY ability to do this. They LITERALLY just click the crouch button and stay crouched. This will not change one iota based on any changes to Nightblade's Shadowy Disguise ability.

Let me explain it to you:

To "cloak" a Nightblade hits Shadowy Disguise and THEN clicks the CROUCH button. They repeat this two button action each time they are pulled out of stealth.

When you see them "spamming" cloak, one of two different things is going on:

1) They are inexperienced at the class and the ability so much so that they think when they are revealed by a detect pot or other method of pulling them out of stealth (notice I didn't say "Cloak" there) that if they spam Shadowy Disguise over & over that they will become somehow invisible and get away. It literally doesn't work like that. Nowadays, unless you're really good at playing the class so as to make you slippery, you will die every single time as an inexperienced Nightblade.

2) They are a semi-experienced Nightblade who has never used an ability or Proc set that puts a DoT on the target but then they change their build to add a proc set or ability that puts a DoT on a target.

Now, this behavior applies to ANY PLAYER IN ANY CLASS nowadays since ZOS snuck this in without telling anyone realy about it.

But if you put a DoT on someone and tehn pop an invis pot, use Shadowy Disguise, crouch, whatever, to get into stealth, you WILL be pulled out of stealth EVERY TIME that DoT ticks on the target.

So you will see Nightblades trying to use Shadowy Disguise over & over because they cast it and crouch but all the sudden when the Shadowy Disguise ends, not only are they no longer in stealth but suddenly and unexpectedly they are also STANDING UP even though they were CROUCHING a second ago and didn't press the button to no longer be crouching. This was another unannounced nerf to stealth which ZOS didn't explain to anyone. And it applies to anyone in stealth for any reason, not just using Shadowy Disguise to crouch and sneak away.

So what's the point? Any player of any class can play stealthily once they learn how to CROUCH in the game. Bombers of all classes have done it for years. The yellow Emp of GH is a Sorc ganker who has mastered being stealthy, all the Heavy Attack DK Gankers that were running around before ZOS purposefully took away their playstyle had mastered being stealthy. They were "perma-cloaked" as you who are obviously unfamiliar with how to play stealthily love to say. But did they use the Nightblade ability to be able to safely crouch in combat and sneak around? NOPE

So, seriously, stop exaggerating the power of the Nightblade ability - which only shows you don't know how to play in stealth at all - just because you don't know the difference between crouching and casting an ability.

I've tried explaining this as well. People don't understand what stealth and invisibility are. They think you're just mashing cloak 24/7, as if anyone could sustain that (or it would be wise to do so).

there is so much confusion by non-NB players on how the class works and they get upset because of it. I understand how every class works (except arcanists because I don't have that) because I've played them all and that makes it easier to fight them. I know their weaknesses and strengths. The advantages they have over me and the disadvantages that I can expoit.

Well honestly I think neither of you are trying to understand the point of the person saying perma cloak but I believe it's more to talk about the heavy cloak usage in a combat scenario. It isn't that they can stay cloaked forever, it's that there's enough regen in the game to allow a NB to use cloak quite a few times while attacking and having enough movement speed to avoid damage and enough healing to resolve damage that does happen and it can be a bit much.

I personally usually only get killed by a NB when they catch me highly off guard, I'm out of resources, or they are just amazing with their damage window. It's not really a big deal but I've also faced a lot that can't kill me and who I can't kill because they are able to get a lot of mileage out of the things mentioned above even though I'm using detect pots and a reveal on the bar.

I still argue that's counters can work but the problem is they mostly only work on the worst nbs and not the ones that understand how to chain the things above to get away

It's a subject with many sides but there's certainly an argument for scenarios where cloak and the overall NB kit can have more than average levels of expected class skill synergy.

Everything you described is how it should be.

I can't kill some players and those players build for tankiness so they can't do enough damage to me. Fair trade.

You can't get killed by someone but you can't kill them. Fair trade. Get more damage.

"Heavy cloak usage" in combat scenario is expected, because you have to attack within 3 seconds to get the most out of it. So if I hit cloak and start an attack, and you move, I have to hit it again to make sure I get my attack off in time.

Counters are more effective against less experienced nightblades. That's exactly how it should be.

I am not a fan of "what-about-isms" so I'm not going to go down the laundry list of examples of where classes have much more extreme examples of synergy and how much harder to kill they are while outputting similar damage. Anyone who actively PVPs knows what I am talking about. Unlike some players, I don't care. I don't let it influence me or drive me to complain about it. Or worse: try to influence the devs to alter a class so that I have an easier time dealing with it.

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Well honestly I think neither of you are trying to understand the point of the person saying perma cloak but I believe it's more to talk about the heavy cloak usage in a combat scenario. It isn't that they can stay cloaked forever, it's that there's enough regen in the game to allow a NB to use cloak quite a few times while attacking and having enough movement speed to avoid damage and enough healing to resolve damage that does happen and it can be a bit much.

No, we're saying that in the example you give above there are a literal PLETHORA of ways to make the Nightblade unable to recloak while you fight them. Pop a detect. Throw a flare. Put a DoT on them. And others. These will all render their cloak ineffective and if you don't know how to do such things or refuse to do such things when fighting a Nightblade, THAT'S NOT OUR PROBLEM.

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I personally usually only get killed by a NB when they catch me highly off guard, I'm out of resources, or they are just amazing with their damage window. It's not really a big deal but I've also faced a lot that can't kill me and who I can't kill because they are able to get a lot of mileage out of the things mentioned above even though I'm using detect pots and a reveal on the bar.

And that's evidently according to ZOS how things are supposed to be - or they wouldn't nerf everything that gankers use to get initial burst when you're unawares.

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I still argue that's counters can work but the problem is they mostly only work on the worst nbs and not the ones that understand how to chain the things above to get away

And we argue that's also how its supposed to be. Especially now when everyone and their brother is stacking 2 or more Scribing abilities to give them ridiculous amounts of shields and then pop an instant heal. Everyone any good at any other class is doing this. Our counter is to be able to get away using stealth when you do that. That's the balance that they are whacking out of balance here with this no Magicka Regen nonsense.

Bushido2513 wrote: »

It's a subject with many sides but there's certainly an argument for scenarios where cloak and the overall NB kit can have more than average levels of expected class skill synergy.

If they want to make it easier for new Nightblades - great - but nerfing it into the ground for experienced Nightblades is not an option. We will just quit the game or turn off ESO Plus. Those aren't threats, just facts. We get to chose what we spend our hard earned money on and how we play a game. If the game no longer meets our expectations then we are perfectly free to stop paying and telling ZOS that is what will be the consequence of such a substantial change to the class mechanics.