ZOS, enough with Stealth Nerfs.

CameraBeardThePirate · September 25

Edit: This is not discussing cloak, but rather nerfs that are never stated in the notes.

Nerfs will always upset people, even when justified.

However, stealth nerfs are simply unacceptable. There have been so many stealth nerfs over the years that completely gut certain abilities or sets.

Necro for example: In the DoT U35 nerfs, Arcanist and Archer received a 50% nerf despite being Direct Damage abilities - this was not stated in the patch notes and never addressed. More recently, you removed the ability to create corpses outside of combat. Unlisted in the patch notes was that you also removed the ability to consume corpses that were already created outside of combat. Another stealth nerf.

Those are just the stealth nerfs to my main class, but there are multiple stealth nerfs per year to various classes, gear sets, and effects.

The most recent example: Azureblight. Problems with the intended/stated nerf aside, it seems that you also stealth nerfed the user cooldown of the set by 100%.

@ZOS_Kevin Why are stealth nerfs so prevalent? It seems like every other patch something big is changed but never listed in the notes. Is it an error when creating the notes? Intentional by the dev team to prevent negative reactions?

Soarora · September 25

I feel like its just that they’re missed, but the amount of missed notes are concerning. I want to be able to know ALL the changes. I don’t know how patch notes get put together but I’d expect a company to make their employees organized with what changes they make.

SaffronCitrusflower · September 25

I consider lowering the population cap in Cyrodiil over and over and over and over again without saying anything to the player base counts as a massive nerf, and ZOS has never once told the player base when they did these nerfs.

OtarTheMad · September 25

Agreed.

It’s one thing to nerf something but to do it and not tell anyone is just very maddening.

I STILL am very frustrated over the nerf to Skeletal because even before that nerf Necro’s, myself included, thought that ability needed a damage buff but instead got the hammer.

Soarora · September 25

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

I consider lowering the population cap in Cyrodiil over and over and over and over again without saying anything to the player base counts as a massive nerf, and ZOS has never once told the player base when they did these nerfs.

I once said that this allegedly happened based on what I’ve heard on the forums here. It didn’t go well for me.

gariondavey · September 25

Agreed.

Pevey · September 25

Soarora wrote: »

I feel like its just that they’re missed, but the amount of missed notes are concerning. I want to be able to know ALL the changes. I don’t know how patch notes get put together but I’d expect a company to make their employees organized with what changes they make.

This is interesting. I can only guess that the info to compile the notes comes from whatever documentation and approval process for changes must exist. Surely, such a process exists, right? I can't imagine a single dev is allowed to make changes without looping someone in and documenting those changes. If that documentation is missing key changes, approvals are moot.

In the case of the AB nerf, the increase in the cooldown from 0.5 seconds to 1 second is a 50% nerf all on its own. And it wasn't even documented. Was it approved? Would the other changes have been approved if it was known they were over and above this undocumented nerf?

CameraBeardThePirate · September 25

Pevey wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

I feel like its just that they’re missed, but the amount of missed notes are concerning. I want to be able to know ALL the changes. I don’t know how patch notes get put together but I’d expect a company to make their employees organized with what changes they make.

This is interesting. I can only guess that the info to compile the notes comes from whatever documentation and approval process for changes must exist. Surely, such a process exists, right? I can't imagine a single dev is allowed to make changes without looping someone in and documenting those changes. If that documentation is missing key changes, approvals are moot.

In the case of the AB nerf, the increase in the cooldown from 0.5 seconds to 1 second is a 50% nerf all on its own. And it wasn't even documented. Was it approved? Would the other changes have been approved if it was known they were over and above this undocumented nerf?

It's a 100% nerf. The cooldown was increased by 100%.

Thumbless_Bot · September 25

Pevey wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

I feel like its just that they’re missed, but the amount of missed notes are concerning. I want to be able to know ALL the changes. I don’t know how patch notes get put together but I’d expect a company to make their employees organized with what changes they make.

This is interesting. I can only guess that the info to compile the notes comes from whatever documentation and approval process for changes must exist. Surely, such a process exists, right? I can't imagine a single dev is allowed to make changes without looping someone in and documenting those changes. If that documentation is missing key changes, approvals are moot.

In the case of the AB nerf, the increase in the cooldown from 0.5 seconds to 1 second is a 50% nerf all on its own. And it wasn't even documented. Was it approved? Would the other changes have been approved if it was known they were over and above this undocumented nerf?

Technology changes typically take place with a system similar to JIRA and nothing happens without it being REQUESTED, reviewed, approved, planned, implemented, tested and then closed.

Whatever system zos uses should have reporting functionality that would give a clear status of any and all proposed changes in their pipeline.

Not for nothing, but if anyone wonders why ANY change, whether it is to fix or roll something back, takes so long, it is because of this exact governance process. Long story short, give zos some slack when it comes to making changes.

MashmalloMan · September 25

Oof. They're hell bent on making Necromancer the clunkiest class in the game when they already won that race 5 years ago.

This "in combat" nonsense has ruined so many sets and skills all to attempt to stop less than 0.01% of the population that finds a way to abuse it. They should find different ways to handle this problem than killing everyones experience.

Still upset about BRP DW...

Pevey · September 25

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Pevey wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

I feel like its just that they’re missed, but the amount of missed notes are concerning. I want to be able to know ALL the changes. I don’t know how patch notes get put together but I’d expect a company to make their employees organized with what changes they make.

This is interesting. I can only guess that the info to compile the notes comes from whatever documentation and approval process for changes must exist. Surely, such a process exists, right? I can't imagine a single dev is allowed to make changes without looping someone in and documenting those changes. If that documentation is missing key changes, approvals are moot.

In the case of the AB nerf, the increase in the cooldown from 0.5 seconds to 1 second is a 50% nerf all on its own. And it wasn't even documented. Was it approved? Would the other changes have been approved if it was known they were over and above this undocumented nerf?

It's a 100% nerf. The cooldown was increased by 100%.

Good point, ty. The cooldown was increased by 100%, which I think would be a 50% damage nerf on it's own, but my caffeine level is insufficient atm.

Aldoss · September 25

I am also salty about the massive imbalances that were implemented with U35 and then NEVER addressed. We're almost 10 updates since then and the skeletal archer nerf is still the best example of a completely neglected skill, changed by the devs, and never explained.

The fact that they added Maj Brut/Sorc to the skill means they even looked at it, but still have never addressed the unjustifiable damage nerf that crippled the skill. Now necro is forced to use it if they want to source their buff from their own class kit.

As already explained, the skill is not damage over time. It's direct damage. I wouldn't be so puzzled if the skill simply had its duration increased to 20 seconds and then had its damage brought up to match. Instead, its damage was divided by the new larger number.

What is it? A dot or direct damage? If it's a dot, then why doesn't it get buffed by rapid rot? If it's direct damage, then why was it touched during the dot standardization?

This example is really great at showcasing that the game is too big for the current combat team and not enough resources are being to them to get the job done.

Honestly, the entire process of "we only attempt to fix things 4 times a year" that ZOS management insists on is, in my experience, the biggest driver of animosity and eventual separation from ZOS and its long term players. The job is too big. Things inevitably get left behind and pushed to future patches in order to make update goals, which clearly overwhelms the combat team because stuff keeps getting missed, neglected, or completely forgotten about.

This is a problem of their own creation and they have the power to change it. I get that packaging updates for consoles isn't as easy as pushing updates for the pc version, but the game isn't fun when it's imbalanced or when systems don't work.

My wife and I LOVE playing bgs, but the state of game this patch plus the low group bg population has had us play the least we've ever played in 5 years. My wallet has been closed since U35.

@ZOS_MattFiror, I think you've done an alright job with the direction of this game, but I hope the point I just shared will become your top priority if you want to see this game last another 10 years. I'm not alone with these sentiments. You need to put focus back into the core combat - the actual playing of this game - and fix the rollercoaster that every subsequent patch since U35 has followed.

All the rollercoaster is doing is proving your team's incompetence. I was SO EXCITED for this patch during the reveal. As of now, knowing how little effort was put into the MMR, and no faith from past experiences that you'll deliver next week (which is historically the last PTS week that ever sees any meaningful change) I'm looking at another 4 months where my wife and I sit down after a long day and choose to play something else instead of the game that we WANT to play and WANT to support with our dollars.

IncultaWolf · September 25

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Oof. They're hell bent on making Necromancer the clunkiest class in the game when they already won that race 5 years ago.

This "in combat" nonsense has ruined so many sets and skills all to attempt to stop less than 0.01% of the population that finds a way to abuse it. They should find different ways to handle this problem than killing everyones experience.

Still upset about BRP DW...

Yup, there's a reason why my main on my alt account is a sorcerer instead of necromancer. Feels so much more fluid to play and the class animations don't make your weapons disappear other than overload.

ioResult · September 25

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

I consider lowering the population cap in Cyrodiil over and over and over and over again without saying anything to the player base counts as a massive nerf, and ZOS has never once told the player base when they did these nerfs.

What's galling about this silent nerf especially is that the playstyle that inordinately causes the most stress on the server is ball groups.

Cyrodiil would be a much less laggy and more enjoyable experience for the vast majority of people who play in the open PvP zone if ZOS simply addressed this abusive playstyle that the vast majority of their customers hate.

Instead we get population caps which are put in place to accommodate this abusive playstyle, keeping other paying customers in a queue instead until others get tired of getting pulled in by Rush of Agony and "farmed" by the ball groups in question.

And ZOS wonders why their customer base is shrinking?

MashmalloMan · September 25

ioResult wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

I consider lowering the population cap in Cyrodiil over and over and over and over again without saying anything to the player base counts as a massive nerf, and ZOS has never once told the player base when they did these nerfs.

And ZOS wonders why their customer base is shrinking?

Besides the rest of your comment being true, where have they ever actually said this? Every single year I hear the same people say the game is dying, dead, shrinking, but never ZOS. Even if it was, they wouldn't publically say this. Steam charts as an idea for how the game is doing is just as good as it's ever been with a spike during covid.

If it wasn't profitable, it wouldn't have lasted 10 years. Period. MMO's actually die out all the time, this isn't one of them. At least so far..

Just my opinion, but the past 2 years of the direction for the game have been some of my favourite and I'm excited to see where it goes even if I don't agree with absolutely every decision they've made. Frankly their biggest issue is there just too slow to update combat balance, I'm actually surprised how fast they're continuously pumping out Scribing Focuses which require new VFX, SFX, and coding. Wish they'd apply that to other areas of the game like class balance and idenity.

kevkj · September 25

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Technology changes typically take place with a system similar to JIRA and nothing happens without it being REQUESTED, reviewed, approved, planned, implemented, tested and then closed.

Whatever system zos uses should have reporting functionality that would give a clear status of any and all proposed changes in their pipeline.

Not for nothing, but if anyone wonders why ANY change, whether it is to fix or roll something back, takes so long, it is because of this exact governance process. Long story short, give zos some slack when it comes to making changes.

The idea that ZOS uses tracker/management tools for its workflow is laughable given the kind of updates pushed out and the topic of this thread itself (undocumented changes). These undocumented changes aren't funny haha easter eggs either.

The actual workflow seems more like a committee of people working to implement whatever they feel like and no one tests and certifies the updates. The azureblight changes read like 3 different people attempt to tackle the "azureblight problem". Person A goes "Azureblight is OP in PVP sentiment is gaining a lot of traction, I'm going to take it out of PVP. Done and done". Person B goes "Azureblight is overperforming against low number of enemies, I'm going to change the scaling. Done and done". Person C goes "Azureblight is overperforming, the root cause is how fast the blight seeds stack. I'll change it just before the patch goes live and see what happens."

Frostmear · September 26

Stealth is one of the most powerful things to use in cyrodiil right now, if anything stealth needs more nerfs since Cyrodiil is full of stage 4 vamp gankers perma stealthing. It is way too easy to abuse stealth right now and there's absolutely no risk involved. stealth based game play needs risk and reward, right now it's all reward. Hence why Cloak got its well deserved nerf.

boi_anachronism_ · September 26

Frostmear wrote: »

Stealth is one of the most powerful things to use in cyrodiil right now, if anything stealth needs more nerfs since Cyrodiil is full of stage 4 vamp gankers perma stealthing. It is way too easy to abuse stealth right now and there's absolutely no risk involved. stealth based game play needs risk and reward, right now it's all reward. Hence why Cloak got its well deserved nerf.

Op isnt talking about the cloak nerf and says so at the very beginning lol. Op is talking about stealth nerf - typically combat changes that are done but not listed in the patch notes. This has zero to do with the cloak skill.