The new cloak doesn't bring any value to the game.

Jaimeh · September 24

The upcoming change to how shadowy disguise fundamentally works (10 years into the game, no less), doesn't bring anything of value into the NB toolkit, while removing one of the class' best defensive capabilities.

In order to use the new skill for extensive invisibility, you have to have a build geared heavily on magicka sustain (including replacing all damage enchantments for regen), while also slotting leeching strikes to counteract the drain (and leeching strikes costs health, which another issue, as I'll explain below). This means that a) your build won't be effective for anything else, b) you have to make space on your bar for leeching strikes.

However, we can already achieve near permanent invisibility in the game, using either a speedy build on a stage IV vampire, or a Darloc Bare/Torc of tonal constancy build (among others, but these are the two I have used), and for these we didn't have to slot any extra skill on the bar and sacrifice slots, not to mention they are available to all classes as well. With the new cloak you will need a specialized build and two skills for perma-invisibility, so it doesn't bring anything new to the table, and it's worse than what we already have.

Now for the things the new change removes: when you want to sneak to escape on a NB, you cloak and then you sneak (2 button pushes), now you will have to untoggle the skill, because the drain is insane (so 3 button pushes, and it's clanky, so the longer it goes on, the worse the drain). If you want to keep using cloak in a high pressure situation, you have to build heavily into mag sustain, like I said, and spam leeching strikes as well, thus burning your health, and risking being left with lowered health if/when you get revealed. You just won't be able to use the skill effectively, and the only other avenue is to re-morpth it, which means an entire different playstyle that a lot of people don't enjoy.

No one ever complained about needing more invisibility in the game, no one ever complained about having to recast cloak, and no one likes toggles in fast gameplay like PvPiing, so why is the skill changing? Just to remove NBs defensive abilities? The skill itself is not problematic, it's in combination with all the proc sets that make it dangerous. If you are set on nerfing it, then just ramp up the cost: this is will still limit the usage of the skill, but it won't make the actual use of the skill harder, which is the case with the toggle. @ZOS_BrianWheeler

Tommy_The_Gun · September 24

From what I have observed so far, most people who are happy about this nerf, don't even realize what this nerf does and they are just "happy" about class being nerfed. They just have heard about a nerf, but since they did not played class a lot, they don't understand it.

I mean, I am playing this game since it launched and I did experienced nerfs & I know what it means. So I tend to not blindly "call for nerfs" because I know how it ends. In the end it just sucks fun out of the game & games should be fun to play.

Anyway, I think that what ZOS is doing with cloak will actually bring opposite result. They want cloak to be easier to cast & use (hence the toggle), but whoops ! Duration is too short for vast majority of builds to be of any use. So you need to press other buttons. So instead of pressing 1 button every 3 seconds, you now press 1 button to turn the cloak on, and then other button every 2 seconds and then other button when you are low on health and then once you are done you turn the cloak off...

It is way harder and less accessible and their goal was to make it easier & more accessible. Not mentioning additional bar space you will need to slot at least siphoning.

What I am worried the most however is reliability. I know from my own experience how "amazingly well" toggle skills works when there is just tiny bit of lag. So Cloak with a toggle will be basically pure RNG if it works on not - especially in PvP.

The other issue is how it will affect NB's tool kit. I mean Shadow Barrier passive is crucial for every NB build. Since last patch, it is no longer possible to use Veiled Strike (spammable) to proc it. The other skill that most NB use often is cloak, but if it becomes a toggle, then it wont be "a cast every 3 seconds" so it also can not be used to proc Shadow Barrier. So again - find a bar space to use something else. And bar space is not made out of rubber.

I also do think that people who are happy about this nerf will have a nasty surprise once they realize that next patch most NB will move to either bombing or ranged gank - cuz those will be the most reasonable & possible to do. Melee ganking will still be possible, but if something goes wrong, cloak will be far too unreliable to be used as escape tool. Same for NB Brawlers, if they get overrun. So most will probably switch to different play-styles that will be more reasonable.

I also have hard time believing that "permanent cloak" was a big issue. Because realistically, who is using this ? Mostly PvE players who want to avoid PvP in a 1st place & go unseen.

The more I think about this whole situation, the more I think that this whole change (that is basically out on nowhere after 10 years) is just a distraction, so people will talk about it instead of other issue. For instance... how it is remotely possible that Ball Groups have not a single nerf for over 10 years ? Basically, never. Since the game has launched, this play style was always dominating, and yet never received a single nerf - only buffs... And now yet again ZOS is nerfing the only counter for ball groups...

Ball Groups are the reason why most people have quited PvP (and btw they are not going back to play BGs)... but sure NB is the problem lol. I mean ZOS started this narrative...

opethmaniac · September 24

This change will render all Oakensoul builds useless. You need Leeching Strikes and Rally (to heal while stealthed).
The remaining 3 slots are needed for Cloak, Merciless Resolve and Concealed Weapon.
No ranged attack, no burst heal... RIP Oakensoul. I'm over 50 and can't compete in PVP without Oakensoul.

That's it for me with ESO. I canceled my subscription and have actually been playing WOW again for a few days now after a break of several years.

TX12001rwb17_ESO · September 24

opethmaniac wrote: »

This change will render all Oakensoul builds useless. You need Leeching Strikes and Rally (to heal while stealthed).
The remaining 3 slots are needed for Cloak, Merciless Resolve and Concealed Weapon.
No ranged attack, no burst heal... RIP Oakensoul. I'm over 50 and can't compete in PVP without Oakensoul.

That's it for me with ESO. I canceled my subscription and have actually been playing WOW again for a few days now after a break of several years.

My PvP nightblade uses Oakensoul, this change does not effect them whatsoever.

BlueRaven · September 24

I just don’t understand the concept of nbs anymore, particularly in pve. It was one of the first classes I created, but overtime the class spells felt more and more pointless. Cloak is one of the last remnants of the nb tool kit I still use. And now it feels that is slipping away.

What are my nbs now? The class I play when I don’t want use any class skills?

Kaysha · September 24

opethmaniac wrote: »

This change will render all Oakensoul builds useless. You need Leeching Strikes and Rally (to heal while stealthed).
The remaining 3 slots are needed for Cloak, Merciless Resolve and Concealed Weapon.
No ranged attack, no burst heal... RIP Oakensoul. I'm over 50 and can't compete in PVP without Oakensoul.

That's it for me with ESO. I canceled my subscription and have actually been playing WOW again for a few days now after a break of several years.

hey, I´m back to WoW too for the same reasonm. Good decision!

Jaimeh · September 25

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Anyway, I think that what ZOS is doing with cloak will actually bring opposite result. They want cloak to be easier to cast & use (hence the toggle), but whoops ! Duration is too short for vast majority of builds to be of any use. So you need to press other buttons. So instead of pressing 1 button every 3 seconds, you now press 1 button to turn the cloak on, and then other button every 2 seconds and then other button when you are low on health and then once you are done you turn the cloak off...

It is way harder and less accessible and their goal was to make it easier & more accessible. Not mentioning additional bar space you will need to slot at least siphoning.

What I am worried the most however is reliability. I know from my own experience how "amazingly well" toggle skills works when there is just tiny bit of lag. So Cloak with a toggle will be basically pure RNG if it works on not - especially in PvP.

Exactly, it will be worse to play in general across the board, hence why I don't understand the change. We just went through the concealed weapon merry go around, now this. Why are they systematic destroying everything unique about this class? If they wanted to address ganking, they are going the wrong way about it. Cloak in itself, is not the issue. Other classes can gank very successfully as well. Cloak is only dangerous with a strong burst attack, which is in turn only made possible with the ridiculously strong proc sets that are going around. There isn't a single gank build that's not using them, and with good reason. Gutting our tool kit, hurting all types of playstyles, both pvp and pve, and changing how a core class skill works after 10 years, when there's so many more problematic issues in Cyrodiil (they haven't done a single thing for ball groups for instance--they are just getting stronger), it's honestly befuddling, and extremely disappointing.

Ezhh · September 25

If the change is an attempt to make cloak easier to use in PvE it misses the mark. I usually only use cloak for short durations to move past something instead of engage with it, and this would double the key presses I'd need for that.

In PvP I'd argue the increased damage coming out of stealth, and not stealth itself, is the problem (if there is any real problem at all).

StaticWave · September 25

Peak NB gameplay:

https://youtu.be/NO-sm3tK1Xk?si=7gCUjlQ_q4iXkLZ5

CameraBeardThePirate · September 25

Right, an ability that grants Major Prophecy/Savagery while slotted on either bar, guarantees a crit when cast, and can dodge incoming targeted attacks doesn't bring anything to the table. Might as well do nothing /s

mmtaniac · September 25

Radiant aura bring nothing but cloak is still strong not best like before but still are better.

Jaimeh · September 25

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Right, an ability that grants Major Prophecy/Savagery while slotted on either bar, guarantees a crit when cast, and can dodge incoming targeted attacks doesn't bring anything to the table. Might as well do nothing /s

But the skill already does all these. And as the skill is now, it's much easier to time, control and use it for the guaranteed crit (if you want to proc something that requires a crit hit for instance) than it will be with the toggle. Plus, all the other reasons outlined in the OP and in comments above, which will make the user experience much worse, both in terms of building and usage.

Sedare38 · September 25

StaticWave wrote: »

Peak NB gameplay:

https://youtu.be/NO-sm3tK1Xk?si=7gCUjlQ_q4iXkLZ5

how is this peak nb gameplay? please explain.

they clearly are squishy, but didn't have enough burst for your high health recovery, resist build using rallying cry--one of the most ridiculous and overtuned sets in the game. Yay you weren't shielding like mad, like most sorcs, so congrats there, but you lose points for obnoxiously hopping.

since they didn't have the damage to overcome whatever your build is running, they should have simply dipped out to find a non-sweat target to kill and leave you to it with the grout in the tower. glad you can insult an entire class and lump everyone who plays it in one jar. gg

CameraBeardThePirate · September 25

Jaimeh wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Right, an ability that grants Major Prophecy/Savagery while slotted on either bar, guarantees a crit when cast, and can dodge incoming targeted attacks doesn't bring anything to the table. Might as well do nothing /s

But the skill already does all these. And as the skill is now, it's much easier to time, control and use it for the guaranteed crit (if you want to proc something that requires a crit hit for instance) than it will be with the toggle. Plus, all the other reasons outlined in the OP and in comments above, which will make the user experience much worse, both in terms of building and usage.

It will be the exact same to guarantee a crit with the toggle. Press cloak -> press ability.

bladenick · September 26

I’m melee mag blade build , it totally unplayable in PTS, just create a new character Sorc first day when I saw the PTS 10.2.0 patch note. Now it LV50 with all PVP essential skill learned

Jaimeh · September 26

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Jaimeh wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Right, an ability that grants Major Prophecy/Savagery while slotted on either bar, guarantees a crit when cast, and can dodge incoming targeted attacks doesn't bring anything to the table. Might as well do nothing /s

But the skill already does all these. And as the skill is now, it's much easier to time, control and use it for the guaranteed crit (if you want to proc something that requires a crit hit for instance) than it will be with the toggle. Plus, all the other reasons outlined in the OP and in comments above, which will make the user experience much worse, both in terms of building and usage.

It will be the exact same to guarantee a crit with the toggle. Press cloak -> press ability.

But after the burst when you go back to invisibility it's an extra button to untoggle, or a spam of leeching strikes to keep being invisible while you presumably are repositioning (meaning an additional slot in your bar, and the health drain as well). It's not how the cloak works in theory, but in practice; the way you usually use it will be much worse if the change goes live.

Jaimeh · September 26

bladenick wrote: »

I’m melee mag blade build , it totally unplayable in PTS, just create a new character Sorc first day when I saw the PTS 10.2.0 patch note. Now it LV50 with all PVP essential skill learned

This is out of topic, but I agree that there are so many more problematic specs in PvP, than NB gankers. People have been tunnel visioning on Nbs because they can sucker punch (and that was the design archetype of class: strike from shadows, leech life, escape fast) and it gives rise to an emotional reaction. Nevermind sorcs and DKs deleting everything left and right. But yes, it is unplayable and most players will simply opt with rolling other characters.