Shocker: ZOS Devs nerf set that I can be actually effective against ball groups

ioResult · September 23

Azureblight Reaper: Reduced the base damage of this set by ~60%.

Oh shock of shocks. Tell us ZOS devs can't actually PvP without telling us ZOS devs can't actually PvP.

The one new build that is effective against ball groups gets a massive nerf so that ball groups can continue to run the map whenever they decide to go into Cyrodiil.

But yeah, right...Cloak is the problem.

Major_Mangle · September 23

The problem isn't the reduced base damage or the scaling (those changes are fine), but making the scaling not work against players is completely ridiculous.

CameraBeardThePirate · September 23

Major_Mangle wrote: »

The problem isn't the reduced base damage or the scaling (those changes are fine), but making the scaling not work against players is completely ridiculous.

The scaling and damage changes would have been exactly what the set needed in PvP - reduced effectiveness against smaller groups with strength against larger groups.

Tommy_The_Gun · September 23

Call me crazy, but I think that they are changing cloak, quite literally out of nowhere with no good reason after over 10 years, so that we wouldn't talk about the real issue - Ball Groups, but focus on other changes (cloak is a scapegoat & cloak changes are basically a distraction).

The thing that bugs me is... why for ever 10 years, Ball Groups actually never received a single nerf. Even a small one. Nada. Zero. Nothing. Only indirect & sometimes direct buffs. They are basically god mode. Even if you are a totally noob, you can be pretty much unkillable even vs good players. Why ? How did it happened ? Ball Groups are the very reason why people are quitting PvP.

ioResult · September 23

Major_Mangle wrote: »

The problem isn't the reduced base damage or the scaling (those changes are fine), but making the scaling not work against players is completely ridiculous.

Completely agree, I was just posting the set name really, directly from the patch notes.

My THEORY?

What ZOS evidently wants is to turn Cyrodiil into ball groups running around taking the map combined with tower sweaties who will have no one left to Xv1 Ulti-dump down.

The result? The ball groups go back to doing trials (where they belong anyway) and the Xv1ers just go into the new BGs because those will never lag. Open world PvP just dies in ESO.

Why?

Because ZOS won't do what is necessary to decrease the server lag in open world when ball groups and megazergs run around.

Why?

Because that's the only type of open world PvP that a small minority of ZOS Devs currently employed by the company actually do. The vast majority never set foot in PvP of any kind.

So ZOS is now steering ESO PvP towards BGs where the current server code can handle 16 people in an instance (as opposed to 100+ people in Cyrodiil).

The devs don't do open world PvP (except maybe ball groups) and anyone who could fix open world PvP of 100+ players in proximity because they designed the original combat engine no longer works for ZOS so the current engineering staff can't fix it because they don't know how to fix it.

That's my theory anyway. Maybe someone at ZOS could tell me I'm wrong. But I won't hold my breath.

But yeah...Cloak is the problem.

Twohothardware · September 23

It's because none of the devs play PvP. They read complaints here on the forum about how OP a handful of people think Azureblght was in PvP and they nerf it.

acastanza_ESO · September 23

Twohothardware wrote: »

It's because none of the devs play PvP. They read complaints here on the forum about how OP a handful of people think Azureblght was in PvP and they nerf it.

The really funny part is in that extremely long "nerf azureblight" thread, only a tiny minority of the posts were actually defending the OP's pro-nerf position, and all of them from known ballgroup players. Every other post, the vast, vast majority of them, were defending the set as doing the job it was intended to do. And yet that tiny minority of players who play in the most abusive groups imaginable are who are listened to.

kyle.wilson · September 23

ioResult wrote: »

Azureblight Reaper: Reduced the base damage of this set by ~60%.

Oh shock of shocks. Tell us ZOS devs can't actually PvP without telling us ZOS devs can't actually PvP.

The one new build that is effective against ball groups gets a massive nerf so that ball groups can continue to run the map whenever they decide to go into Cyrodiil.

But yeah, right...Cloak is the problem.

I don't think many of the devs play the game outside their pts sandbox separate from us normies.
The one's that do play must be inside these ball groups, because it's the only playstyle in the game that never sees legit counterplay implemented.
They did just make a bunch of sets that make it easier to 12v1 someone though.
@ZOS_BrianWheeler

Turtle_Bot · September 24

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_BrianWheeler

When you have NB mains and Sorc mains actually agreeing on something (in this case, it's ball groups being an abusive, toxic playstyle that is killing the unique open world PvP in this game that makes PvP in this game even worth playing at all), then it is blatantly obvious that thing needs to be addressed immediately, not made worse.

NB and sorcs never agree on ANYTHING and always argue with each other, so if they ever agree on anything at all being an issue, take it extremely seriously, listen to the proposed solutions, and directly fix the issue without delay because it is clearly a massive game-breaking issue (borderline on par with something like a massive cheating scandal) if NB and sorcs are in agreement over it.

Pevey · September 24

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_BrianWheeler

When you have NB mains and Sorc mains actually agreeing on something (in this case, it's ball groups being an abusive, toxic playstyle that is killing the unique open world PvP in this game that makes PvP in this game even worth playing at all), then it is blatantly obvious that thing needs to be addressed immediately, not made worse.

NB and sorcs never agree on ANYTHING and always argue with each other, so if they ever agree on anything at all being an issue, take it extremely seriously, listen to the proposed solutions, and directly fix the issue without delay because it is clearly a massive game-breaking issue (borderline on par with something like a massive cheating scandal) if NB and sorcs are in agreement over it.

Could not agree more.

That azure thread was a legit propaganda campaign. “Think of the poor 4-man groups.” When it is just not that strong on those situations. Most groups of 4 are not going to be standing close enough to each other for AB to be effective, and if they were stacking for heals and shields, the scaling was not that bad for 4.

These few people who campaigned against azure were ball group runners.

I hope ZOS doesn’t always take what people say on the forums at face value. You always have to consider someone’s agenda.

katorga · September 24

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Call me crazy, but I think that they are changing cloak, quite literally out of nowhere with no good reason after over 10 years, so that we wouldn't talk about the real issue - Ball Groups, but focus on other changes (cloak is a scapegoat & cloak changes are basically a distraction).

The thing that bugs me is... why for ever 10 years, Ball Groups actually never received a single nerf. Even a small one. Nada. Zero. Nothing. Only indirect & sometimes direct buffs. They are basically god mode. Even if you are a totally noob, you can be pretty much unkillable even vs good players. Why ? How did it happened ? Ball Groups are the very reason why people are quitting PvP.

It is impossible to "nerf" ball groups. There is nothing in-game that enables a ball group. They are not dependent on specific sets, skills, or in game communications. They use whatever works best for the given patch, combined with coordination, and out of band communications.

If you took away all sets, all skills, all class skills, leaving nothing but light attacks...a coordinated ball group with out of band comms would still wreck pugs.

Pevey · September 24

katorga wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Call me crazy, but I think that they are changing cloak, quite literally out of nowhere with no good reason after over 10 years, so that we wouldn't talk about the real issue - Ball Groups, but focus on other changes (cloak is a scapegoat & cloak changes are basically a distraction).

The thing that bugs me is... why for ever 10 years, Ball Groups actually never received a single nerf. Even a small one. Nada. Zero. Nothing. Only indirect & sometimes direct buffs. They are basically god mode. Even if you are a totally noob, you can be pretty much unkillable even vs good players. Why ? How did it happened ? Ball Groups are the very reason why people are quitting PvP.

It is impossible to "nerf" ball groups. There is nothing in-game that enables a ball group. They are not dependent on specific sets, skills, or in game communications. They use whatever works best for the given patch, combined with coordination, and out of band communications.

If you took away all sets, all skills, all class skills, leaving nothing but light attacks...a coordinated ball group with out of band comms would still wreck pugs.

That's not true. Cross healing and shields and skills like rapids specifically enable this sort of play, and they can all be nerfed or deleted.

These are not simply skilled groups. They are not trying to fulfil some fantasy of a skilled, organized army. What army doesn't even want to fight the other army? Ball groups go out of their way to avoid other ball groups.

No, they are AP farm groups employing a very specific playstyle that exploits cross-healing and shields. To do this, they move around as one, in a tiny ball. Thus, ball groups. What army does this? This playstyle makes Cyrodiil completely unenjoyable for other people who do not want to be part of a ball group because they find it toxic. What kind of game is that? Spamming a specific rotation and playing Simon Says in voice chat?

Joy_Division · September 24

katorga wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Call me crazy, but I think that they are changing cloak, quite literally out of nowhere with no good reason after over 10 years, so that we wouldn't talk about the real issue - Ball Groups, but focus on other changes (cloak is a scapegoat & cloak changes are basically a distraction).

The thing that bugs me is... why for ever 10 years, Ball Groups actually never received a single nerf. Even a small one. Nada. Zero. Nothing. Only indirect & sometimes direct buffs. They are basically god mode. Even if you are a totally noob, you can be pretty much unkillable even vs good players. Why ? How did it happened ? Ball Groups are the very reason why people are quitting PvP.

It is impossible to "nerf" ball groups. There is nothing in-game that enables a ball group. They are not dependent on specific sets, skills, or in game communications. They use whatever works best for the given patch, combined with coordination, and out of band communications.

If you took away all sets, all skills, all class skills, leaving nothing but light attacks...a coordinated ball group with out of band comms would still wreck pugs.

If Rush of Agony set was nuked to Oblivion, organized groups would be far less effective than they are right now.

If HOT/Shield stacking did not stack (most other fantasy games do not allow the same buff to stack for this reason), organized group would be far less effective than they are now.

If ZOS made it so the max group size was 4 and 3 separate mini-groups tried to coordinate, organized groups would be far less effective then they are now.

If Zos made it so Rapid maneuvers did not go out to 11 others and removed Snow Treaders from the game, organized groups would be less effective then they are now.

If ZOS removed the Deep Fissure Skill from the game, organized groups would be less effective (albeit not far) than they are now.

While I agree with the premise the organized players + skill + theorycrafting are highly effective and robust force multipliers and thus organized groups of any size are going to be far stronger than the sum of their paper stats, let's not pretend there are not numerous mechanics (and quite of few of them dubious) that organized groups in ESO utilize to powerful effect, far beyond what is capable by solo players or disorganized alliance mates in the same vicinity.

CameraBeardThePirate · September 24

Joy_Division wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Call me crazy, but I think that they are changing cloak, quite literally out of nowhere with no good reason after over 10 years, so that we wouldn't talk about the real issue - Ball Groups, but focus on other changes (cloak is a scapegoat & cloak changes are basically a distraction).

The thing that bugs me is... why for ever 10 years, Ball Groups actually never received a single nerf. Even a small one. Nada. Zero. Nothing. Only indirect & sometimes direct buffs. They are basically god mode. Even if you are a totally noob, you can be pretty much unkillable even vs good players. Why ? How did it happened ? Ball Groups are the very reason why people are quitting PvP.

It is impossible to "nerf" ball groups. There is nothing in-game that enables a ball group. They are not dependent on specific sets, skills, or in game communications. They use whatever works best for the given patch, combined with coordination, and out of band communications.

If you took away all sets, all skills, all class skills, leaving nothing but light attacks...a coordinated ball group with out of band comms would still wreck pugs.

If Rush of Agony set was nuked to Oblivion, organized groups would be far less effective than they are right now.

If HOT/Shield stacking did not stack (most other fantasy games do not allow the same buff to stack for this reason), organized group would be far less effective than they are now.

If ZOS made it so the max group size was 4 and 3 separate mini-groups tried to coordinate, organized groups would be far less effective then they are now.

If Zos made it so Rapid maneuvers did not go out to 11 others and removed Snow Treaders from the game, organized groups would be less effective then they are now.

If ZOS removed the Deep Fissure Skill from the game, organized groups would be less effective (albeit not far) than they are now.

While I agree with the premise the organized players + skill + theorycrafting are highly effective and robust force multipliers and thus organized groups of any size are going to be far stronger than the sum of their paper stats, let's not pretend there are not numerous mechanics (and quite of few of them dubious) that organized groups in ESO utilize to powerful effect, far beyond what is capable by solo players or disorganized alliance mates in the same vicinity.

This. So much of this.

Yes, organized groups are always going to be stronger, but any healthy game will have caps to that.

Shield + HoT stacking is simply out of control.

Snow Treaders is ridiculously powerful, and with 12 players you have ways to completely nullify the downside it comes with.

Rush is the most busted set they've ever added to PvP. It breaks the rules of CC as a feature, and while it became slightly easier to counter after the patch, it's much stronger against the average player after the radius buff and delay.

There are ways to cap the effectiveness of organized ball groups while keeping them the strongest thing in the game, because yes, they should be the strongest thing in the game. The problem is there are far too many mechanics right now that allow these groups to be head and shoulders above the average player, even when vastly outnumbered.

darvaria · September 25

ZOS: WHY won't you listen to @Joy_Division?

You are going to make pugs and solo players abandon Cyrodiil. Even small man groups are almost gone now. I guess you only want ball groups at Cyro? The populations dying much earlier now and even the ball groups log because everyone is logging off. I'm at the point of not returning except for small endeavors.

Jaimeh · September 25

People are upset by gankers, but they are not upset by chasing around a group inside a keep for 30 minutes, who are there oly to troll and farm incessantly. And you can't leave them because they will flag it, so you are bound by their own schedule. This is the least fun aspect in Cyro right now, yet they are addressing the wrong thing. If you are displeased, go to the PTS and leave in-game feedback as well, it might be more effective that the forums.