Class balance

Syiccal · September 16

- liking the change to cloak can't just be spammed now.
- hardened ward, I'm not sure this is enough, this ability is single handly carrying sorcs.
- Templar, who asked for a taunt in topple charge!!! There needs to be a lot more relevant changes.

Jsmalls · September 16

I'm not sure the Hardened Ward nerf is enough either but roughly...

What used to be a 4k heal will now be a 2600 heal.
What used to be a 7k crit will now be 4600 heal.

This will help a bit in maintaining execute scaling.

But considering the changes being made to cloak, Hardened Ward balance needs another pass.

Syiccal · September 16

The problem is it's very easy currently to have 13-15k shield +8-10k heal..I have these numbers on my sorc in pvp without using vitality. So even a 4k heal with the shield size they achieve is to much, a sorc can effectively spam 20k (shield/heal) with 1 button to survive just about anything along with streak.

TechMaybeHic · September 16

NB: I wonder how the channel with cloak works as far as being broken by damage. And does it mean someone with a detect pot bashing breaks it with interrupt rules?

Templar: The weird buff to Radiant Ward doesn't sound close to being enough for anyone to use it. Not sure why explosive charge gets a cost increase for a taunt whike toppling now has adequate duration of major protection to outlast base CC immunity. Class needs a lot more love and efficiency

Faulgor · September 16

People won't rest until Sorc Tanks are useless again, right?

And Templar tanks don't need more selfish buffs (longer Major Protection / AoE Minor Maim), we need better group buffs, along with an easier/more sensible way to proc Minor Sorcery.

LittlePinkDot · September 16

Why did they nerf my Arcanists impervious runeward shield when it still requires 3 crux for the maximum heal?
Then also nerf the heal on Runeguard of freedom when healing was already a challenge for Arcanist?

LittlePinkDot · September 16

Faulgor wrote: »

People won't rest until Sorc Tanks are useless again, right?

And Templar tanks don't need more selfish buffs (longer Major Protection / AoE Minor Maim), we need better group buffs, along with an easier/more sensible way to proc Minor Sorcery.

Tanks should use shields that scale with health, not Magicka. Wouldn't be an issue if they just switched it back to scaling with health only.

YandereGirlfriend · September 16

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Why did they nerf my Arcanists impervious runeward shield when it still requires 3 crux for the maximum heal?
Then also nerf the heal on Runeguard of freedom when healing was already a challenge for Arcanist?

Runeguard is still one of the most overloaded abilities in the game.

samanthasays · September 16

I dislike all Focused Charge abilities having a taunt, purely because it means I'll have to remove it from my damage dealer now lol

Grim_Overlord · September 16

The change to Necromancer is interesting and I'm excited to test it, though with Necromancer's primary weapon according to the revised tutorial being an Ice Staff, I am curious if the Chill applied from the first circle of Ghostly Embrace is meant to imply Necromancer as a Brittler role. I am not opposed to this, but Wardens being the premier Ice DPS isn't something we should dethrone as it is a huge part of what they bring in that role, or can at least.

It might help to leave Ghostly as doing magic damage and have it apply Overcharged in that first circle and maybe change one of Necromancer's passives to buff Overcharged and Diseased given those damage types seem to be the most associated with the class. Disease is the clear winner for the physical damage types give its presence on BB and Det Siphon, but Magic is mostly just on the healing morph of Scythe. This would give us a more direct access to that damage type rather than doubling up on the damage type of Boneyard, if the elementalist vibe is still something Necromancer is aiming for.

Bashev · September 16

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Why did they nerf my Arcanists impervious runeward shield when it still requires 3 crux for the maximum heal?
Then also nerf the heal on Runeguard of freedom when healing was already a challenge for Arcanist?

Runeguard is still one of the most overloaded abilities in the game.

Now if you perfectly time it, it will be as strong as hardened ward. But if you can time it, it is better to block in PvP as it s way cheaper. Now you can cast it and dodge mitigate some dots and have a shield after the roll is over.

What also worries me is that Arcanist is the worst class in PvP damage wise and one the slowest because of the clunky gate.

LittlePinkDot · September 16

Bashev wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Why did they nerf my Arcanists impervious runeward shield when it still requires 3 crux for the maximum heal?
Then also nerf the heal on Runeguard of freedom when healing was already a challenge for Arcanist?

Runeguard is still one of the most overloaded abilities in the game.

Now if you perfectly time it, it will be as strong as hardened ward. But if you can time it, it is better to block in PvP as it s way cheaper. Now you can cast it and dodge mitigate some dots and have a shield after the roll is over.

What also worries me is that Arcanist is the worst class in PvP damage wise and one the slowest because of the clunky gate.

Who even had? bar space for Runeguard

As for impervious runeward, I'm consider trying out the other morph that reduces the cost.
If I can spam it more it might be worth it rather than a nerfed impervious.

Tommy_The_Gun · September 16

Syiccal wrote: »

- liking the change to cloak can't just be spammed now.

I have tested stuff on PTS and I am having some doubts if it is not too much.
- It can't be spammed, since it is a toggle now.
- On one hand its takes away any kind of skilful coordinated precise button presses to achieve the best efficiency (casting skill exactly every 2,9 seconds). On the other hand skill is easier to use... I don't think that dumbing down the game is good for the game itself...
- Live vs PTS duration on cloak is more or less 50% reduction due to more magicka per second (same build on Live & PTS till the build runs out of magicka). Kinda harsh sledge hammer nerf. It kinda approaches to the point in which Vamp invisibility or even invisibility potions may outperform cloak (will need to test that).
- I don't like the fact that it primarily affects PvE, where cloak was not an issue. If it is problem in PvP, then "nerf" should only affect PvP.

Jsmalls · September 17

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Syiccal wrote: »

- liking the change to cloak can't just be spammed now.

I have tested stuff on PTS and I am having some doubts if it is not too much.
- It can't be spammed, since it is a toggle now.
- On one hand its takes away any kind of skilful coordinated precise button presses to achieve the best efficiency (casting skill exactly every 2,9 seconds). On the other hand skill is easier to use... I don't think that dumbing down the game is good for the game itself...
- Live vs PTS duration on cloak is more or less 50% reduction due to more magicka per second (same build on Live & PTS till the build runs out of magicka). Kinda harsh sledge hammer nerf. It kinda approaches to the point in which Vamp invisibility or even invisibility potions may outperform cloak (will need to test that).
- I don't like the fact that it primarily affects PvE, where cloak was not an issue. If it is problem in PvP, then "nerf" should only affect PvP.

@Tommy_The_Gun

The more I look at this "nerf" the more it's just... Instead of casting cloak you'll be casting siphoning in its place while stealthed.

Perma stealth is still very possible. Rallying and siphoning let's you accomplish this easily. Not sure of how many heals there are in stealth but people will adapt. You can also crouch and stay stealthed if low on Magicka.

moderatelyfatman · September 17

ZOS should just make the Hardened Ward heal scale with health instead of magicka. It won't make PvP sorc tanks all powerful because they don't have enough magicka to spam it but it will give PvE sorc tanks an alternative to double barring the Clanfear.

Tommy_The_Gun · September 17

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

ZOS should just make the Hardened Ward heal scale with health instead of magicka. It won't make PvP sorc tanks all powerful because they don't have enough magicka to spam it but it will give PvE sorc tanks an alternative to double barring the Clanfear.

Yeah, this is flawed design. Right now you can just spec into max magicka (so offensive stat) and it will increase your defences due to scaling.

Aces-High-82 · September 17

Very much flawed Design when Weapon/Spelldamage increase your healing....

zammo · September 17

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Why did they nerf my Arcanists impervious runeward shield when it still requires 3 crux for the maximum heal?
Then also nerf the heal on Runeguard of freedom when healing was already a challenge for Arcanist?

Runeguard is still one of the most overloaded abilities in the game.

Now if you perfectly time it, it will be as strong as hardened ward. But if you can time it, it is better to block in PvP as it s way cheaper. Now you can cast it and dodge mitigate some dots and have a shield after the roll is over.

What also worries me is that Arcanist is the worst class in PvP damage wise and one the slowest because of the clunky gate.

Who even had? bar space for Runeguard

As for impervious runeward, I'm consider trying out the other morph that reduces the cost.
If I can spam it more it might be worth it rather than a nerfed impervious.

Runeguard is one of three Arc skills I would have never considered dropping. The reduced cost on Spiteward is per crux spent, so if you're spamming that, you're not gonna see much cost reduction.

Major_Mangle · September 17

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

ZOS should just make the Hardened Ward heal scale with health instead of magicka. It won't make PvP sorc tanks all powerful because they don't have enough magicka to spam it but it will give PvE sorc tanks an alternative to double barring the Clanfear.

If you think making hardened scale primarily with HP is a good idea you haven´t run into the 40k+ HP proc sorcs in PvP. I can assure you it doesn´t solve any of the current problems with hardened ward and sorcs.

Iriidius · September 17

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

People won't rest until Sorc Tanks are useless again, right?

And Templar tanks don't need more selfish buffs (longer Major Protection / AoE Minor Maim), we need better group buffs, along with an easier/more sensible way to proc Minor Sorcery.

Tanks should use shields that scale with health, not Magicka. Wouldn't be an issue if they just switched it back to scaling with health only.

Cant switch hardened ward „back“ to scale with health only as it never scaled with health only but with max magicka only.

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

ZOS should just make the Hardened Ward heal scale with health instead of magicka. It won't make PvP sorc tanks all powerful because they don't have enough magicka to spam it but it will give PvE sorc tanks an alternative to double barring the Clanfear.

Cant wait seeing 50k hp 18k mag sorcerer wearing clever+rallyng+balorgh/chudan or mdw+vatefrost + plaguedoctor+maarselok and eating orzagas smoked bear haunch like any other class while still having big shields.
High hp used to be high health pool mainly so low reaction time players have more time to react to burst combos and it should have stayed this way. But ZoS made many healing proc sets sets and skills scale with hp so anyone wanting a decent heal to survive pressure needs 45k hp and survives uncountered burst combos as byproduct. Now half players run around with 45k hp.

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

ZOS should just make the Hardened Ward heal scale with health instead of magicka. It won't make PvP sorc tanks all powerful because they don't have enough magicka to spam it but it will give PvE sorc tanks an alternative to double barring the Clanfear.

Yeah, this is flawed design. Right now you can just spec into max magicka (so offensive stat) and it will increase your defences due to scaling.

Except that max magicka currently is the worst offensive stat so much that most Cyrodiil „dds“ have 20k and forget their max magicka when boasting with their high offensive stats.
With undaunted, bound aegis, magelight and sorc passive 31% magicka you get maybe 70% out of crafty alfiq compared to a wpn dmg set, without you get 55%. So you need to invest almost twice as much in magicka as in wpn dmg to get same dmg.

necro_the_crafter · September 17

I see they went the route of nerfing everyone to the necro level, instead of buffing necros lol.

But seriosly, you can load gls or embrace with absurd amounts of effects and damage, but those skills would still be flawed mechanicly. Skulls(the only reason to use gls) and embrace are still slowest, most predictable spells in the game, and even stun setup cant help landing them on people in pvp.

For sorcs tho, i hoped they do separate scaling for healing and shield strenght, shield size - max magika, heal - max health. But they just nerfed the heal amount. Or making it a HoT was also a decent option in my opinion.

Didnt see that coming for NB's. And tarnished nerf. Thats delicious!

Also hoped that arcanist would get something done with burst damage for pvp. I would like to see tentacular dread damage increase, and maybe added a condition - if you hit more than one target you dont spent crux on cast or something like that. Dread consuming cruxes makes it really hard to fit in with all the other skills, primary runeward as well as locking you only to crux generating spamables.

DK and Templars recived minor adjustments compared to other, nice to see pyrebrand fix i guess.

monkidb16_ESO · September 17

Iriidius wrote: »

Except that max magicka currently is the worst offensive stat so much that most Cyrodiil „dds“ have 20k and forget their max magicka when boasting with their high offensive stats.

That is true for most classes due to a lack of % gain on MaxStat, but as you already mentioned in your next sentence Sorc is in a unique spot with its very high % modifiers.

Iriidius wrote: »

With undaunted, bound aegis, magelight and sorc passive 31% magicka you get maybe 70% out of crafty alfiq compared to a wpn dmg set, without you get 55%. So you need to invest almost twice as much in magicka as in wpn dmg to get same dmg.

Thats not quite true:
In most sets you get 1096 MaxStat for every 129 MaxPower which is a factor of around 8.5.
When you take a look at the coefficients of skills you can see that for 8.5 MaxStat you get the equivalent of 81% MaxPower.

So unbuffed the difference is about 19%

Brutality/Sorcery will tilt the balance in favor of MaxPower by 20% but the other passives you mentioned will tilt it back by 31% so we will land somewhere around a 10% loss for stacking MaxStat instead of MaxPower.

However, and correct me if I'm wrong, I don't think there is a set that gives Power in all its lines, so its much easier to stack MaxStat.

CameraBeardThePirate · September 17

Bashev wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Why did they nerf my Arcanists impervious runeward shield when it still requires 3 crux for the maximum heal?
Then also nerf the heal on Runeguard of freedom when healing was already a challenge for Arcanist?

Runeguard is still one of the most overloaded abilities in the game.

Now if you perfectly time it, it will be as strong as hardened ward. But if you can time it, it is better to block in PvP as it s way cheaper. Now you can cast it and dodge mitigate some dots and have a shield after the roll is over.

What also worries me is that Arcanist is the worst class in PvP damage wise and one the slowest because of the clunky gate.

It is not the worst damage-wise lol. It still has some of the highest pressure you can get on status effect builds, and with a good group that's pulling for you, Beam+Eyeball is still ridiculously powerful.

LittlePinkDot · September 17

zammo wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Why did they nerf my Arcanists impervious runeward shield when it still requires 3 crux for the maximum heal?
Then also nerf the heal on Runeguard of freedom when healing was already a challenge for Arcanist?

Runeguard is still one of the most overloaded abilities in the game.

Now if you perfectly time it, it will be as strong as hardened ward. But if you can time it, it is better to block in PvP as it s way cheaper. Now you can cast it and dodge mitigate some dots and have a shield after the roll is over.

What also worries me is that Arcanist is the worst class in PvP damage wise and one the slowest because of the clunky gate.

Who even had? bar space for Runeguard

As for impervious runeward, I'm consider trying out the other morph that reduces the cost.
If I can spam it more it might be worth it rather than a nerfed impervious.

Runeguard is one of three Arc skills I would have never considered dropping. The reduced cost on Spiteward is per crux spent, so if you're spamming that, you're not gonna see much cost reduction.

1 second on impervious would need to be spammed too since it's only 1 second.
I at least get 6 seconds with the other morph.

Nope, don't have bar space for Runeguard, never did.

Back bar is Tomb bearers inspiration, healing soul burst, audacious runemend, cruxweaver armour and weakness to elements.

Major_Toughness · September 18

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

zammo wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Why did they nerf my Arcanists impervious runeward shield when it still requires 3 crux for the maximum heal?
Then also nerf the heal on Runeguard of freedom when healing was already a challenge for Arcanist?

Runeguard is still one of the most overloaded abilities in the game.

Now if you perfectly time it, it will be as strong as hardened ward. But if you can time it, it is better to block in PvP as it s way cheaper. Now you can cast it and dodge mitigate some dots and have a shield after the roll is over.

What also worries me is that Arcanist is the worst class in PvP damage wise and one the slowest because of the clunky gate.

Who even had? bar space for Runeguard

As for impervious runeward, I'm consider trying out the other morph that reduces the cost.
If I can spam it more it might be worth it rather than a nerfed impervious.

Runeguard is one of three Arc skills I would have never considered dropping. The reduced cost on Spiteward is per crux spent, so if you're spamming that, you're not gonna see much cost reduction.

1 second on impervious would need to be spammed too since it's only 1 second.
I at least get 6 seconds with the other morph.

Nope, don't have bar space for Runeguard, never did.

Back bar is Tomb bearers inspiration, healing soul burst, audacious runemend, cruxweaver armour and weakness to elements.

Not using one of Arcanists strongest abilities for soul burst?
That's a new skill too, wtf did you have there before?

Turtle_Bot · September 18

monkidb16_ESO wrote: »

However, and correct me if I'm wrong, I don't think there is a set that gives Power in all its lines, so its much easier to stack MaxStat.

Assuming you are talking about the 2-4 piece bonuses being all +129 weapon/spell damage:

This one you can say that the 4 piece is +129 weapon/spell damage and the 5th piece is +1096 stamina + 71 weapon/spell damage

This one you can say that the 2 piece is +129 weapon/spell damage and the 5th piece is +1206 health + 42 weapon/spell damage and major brutality/sorcery at all times

Here's the sets I could find from a quick search that have 2-4 piece bonuses all be +129 weapon and spell damage (or have that equivalent when taking into account the bonus weapon and spell damage the set has in the 5th piece bonus).

There were a lot of other sets that only had 1-2 lines of weapon and spell damage that could probably be included here too when accounting for their 5th piece bonuses that are equal to 2 or more lines of +129 weapon and spell damage.