So, you can solo queue for 4v4 but you may get matched against premades

taugrim · September 11

I like being able to solo queue. You can do it whenever, so it's convenient, and it creates different teams with the same people over time, which is fun / interesting. Sure, group queuing can be fun (when they're popping), but solo queue is chill, even though I and a lot of players in solo queue at my MMR are pretty sweaty.

I'd like to be able to do 4v4 as a solo player - getting matched with 7 other players is fun and creates variability.

But it looks like there is only one 4v4 queue, so if I queue solo, I (and other solo queue players) may get matched against a premade. This is not going to foster a reasonably competitive match in a lot of cases. Or IOW, if you queue solo, you and your team in 4v4 are at an inherent disadvantage.

I've never seen mixing solo and group queue players into the same match work well in other games.

I think a system where you have the following options is much better:
- solo queue for DM (4v4, with ratings)
- group queue for DM (4v4, with ratings)
- solo queue for non-DM (8v8)
- group queue for non-DM (8v8)

FWIW, I also think having no MMR in 8v8 is going to lead to matches where sweaty players farm the heck out of inexperienced or less-skilled players. It's what you see in under-50 BGs and in Cyro / IC. Not sure that's really going to create high-quality experiences.

El_Borracho · September 11

The not-so-secret truth is that queueing as a solo has always had the chance of putting you in a premade. I've queued as a solo and joined with the same 3 players on successive BGs who queued as a group. I've queued as a solo with 2 friends already in a group, so we got the random fourth. I've played against 4-player premades that I knew were premades because we were all in the same guild, also in the solo queue. While it is advertised as "12 randoms" in a solo queue, it is not.

Stafford197 · September 11

If they allow strong premade teams to queue against teams of randoms it’s going to be hilarious.

Two teams matchmaking places a WAY larger emphasis on needing proper match ups, or else a game will be utterly dominated by one team every time.

Major_Mangle · September 11

I´m gonna say no to having more queues. I´d rather have one sided matches that ends quick than sitting waiting 20+ minutes to get a balanced game. The 4v4 that was presented on the live stream should stay as it is. There is absolutely zero PvP settings atm that offers a competitive scene for organized groups that wanna fight eachother (and don´t say group bg´s because they do not pop whatsoever) and I´m happy as hell that we´re getting one. But I´m 200% against having too many queue options for said reasons above. Me and a few friends try on a regular basis to queue as a group into bgs and it never pops, sitting 20-40 minutes waiting to PvP is awful.

What needs adjustments is the 8v8 to not allow groups to queue (maybe duos at most, but big maybe).

SkaraMinoc · September 11

The premade groups could wait a little bit longer in queue as the matchmaking logic waits to see if there are any other premades queueing. That way there is enough window to place premades in the same BG and not against teams of solo players. Maybe a 10-15 minute max wait time for other premades and after that, start matching against solo players.

SkaraMinoc · September 11

At the end of a BG, the MMR change should adjust based on whether a premade group was in the match.

If the premade wins against solos, their MMR should increase less.
If the premade loses against solos, their MMR should decrease more.

If the solos win against a premade, their MMR should increase more.
If the solos lose against a premade, their MMR should decrease less.

Necrotech_Master · September 11

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

At the end of a BG, the MMR change should adjust based on whether a premade group was in the match.

If the premade wins against solos, their MMR should increase less.
If the premade loses against solos, their MMR should decrease more.

If the solos win against a premade, their MMR should increase more.
If the solos lose against a premade, their MMR should decrease less.

if they can do something more with the MMR, the last i saw posted was that the MMR was likely still going to be based on medal score even with the new system

Sleepsin · September 11

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

At the end of a BG, the MMR change should adjust based on whether a premade group was in the match.

If the premade wins against solos, their MMR should increase less.
If the premade loses against solos, their MMR should decrease more.

If the solos win against a premade, their MMR should increase more.
If the solos lose against a premade, their MMR should decrease less.

MMR should go away completely. A premade group wants a lower MMR for themselves so they can roll over less experienced players.

As for filling in group matches with solo players, that should never happen. Solo players will stop queueing up which will just make group matches won't fill up. So the idea of spawning a group match faster by filling them up with solo players, will fail in the long run.

SkaraMinoc · September 11

Sleepsin wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

At the end of a BG, the MMR change should adjust based on whether a premade group was in the match.

If the premade wins against solos, their MMR should increase less.
If the premade loses against solos, their MMR should decrease more.

If the solos win against a premade, their MMR should increase more.
If the solos lose against a premade, their MMR should decrease less.

MMR should go away completely. A premade group wants a lower MMR for themselves so they can roll over less experienced players.

If they made the bragging rights good enough then I think it would discourage premades from doing this. Like a Title/Costume/Mount/whatever that only unlocks when your leaderboard score is high enough. The point is if the premade's leaderboard ranking is too low then they might be seen as mid-tier players, trash, etc. Just a thought.

Sleepsin · September 11

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Sleepsin wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

At the end of a BG, the MMR change should adjust based on whether a premade group was in the match.

If the premade wins against solos, their MMR should increase less.
If the premade loses against solos, their MMR should decrease more.

If the solos win against a premade, their MMR should increase more.
If the solos lose against a premade, their MMR should decrease less.

MMR should go away completely. A premade group wants a lower MMR for themselves so they can roll over less experienced players.

If they made the bragging rights good enough then I think it would discourage premades from doing this. Like a Title/Costume/Mount/whatever that only unlocks when your leaderboard score is high enough. The point is if the premade's leaderboard ranking is too low then they might be seen as mid-tier players, trash, etc. Just a thought.

MMR is not displayed, all they can do is post screenshots of their scores rolling over solo players. Just watch the ball groups on YT to see how that works. Having rewards tied to leaderboard scores will only promote that behavior.

SkaraMinoc · September 11

Sleepsin wrote: »

MMR is not displayed, all they can do is post screenshots of their scores rolling over solo players. Just watch the ball groups on YT to see how that works. Having rewards tied to leaderboard scores will only promote that behavior.

On the live stream, the GM account showed Rating on the 4v4 queue screen.

So maybe it will show up on the leaderboard. Also I have serious concerns about leaderboard rank tied to medal score. I think it should use something like elo rating based on win/loss.

Smurfing and de-ranking happens in every game where there's a ranking. It happened in WoW 2v2 and 3v3 frequently when I played. If you rank up high enough then you see less of that happening. It's the low/mid ranks where that becomes more of an issue. But there's also more player population in those ranks so you'll get matched up less frequently.

taugrim · September 11

Agree with your takes @SkaraMinoc.

There needs to be some mechanism to not punish the solo players who face a premade in 4v4.

In the ranked PVP of other games I've played, there were ratings for different queue contexts, e.g. WildStar had ranked battlegrounds and arena.

Premade 4v4 is really an arena context.

Decimus · September 12

Having solo and group queue mixed is a terrible idea and I hope they address this during the PTS as this has real potential of completely ruining the battleground scene. There's a very good reason why solo and group were separated in the first place.

There is precisely zero fun as a solo player in going up against a full premade in voice comms and coordinated buff sets. Zero.

To this problem there is a very simple solution: have a separate solo queue for the battlegrounds.

Having enough player base to support two queues won't be a problem with new rewards and the more fun team vs team format... we already have both solo and group queues (latter with slightly longer queue times) popping.

taugrim · September 12

Decimus wrote: »

Having solo and group queue mixed is a terrible idea and I hope they address this during the PTS as this has real potential of completely ruining the battleground scene. There's a very good reason why solo and group were separated in the first place.

There is precisely zero fun as a solo player in going up against a full premade in voice comms and coordinated buff sets. Zero.

To this problem there is a very simple solution: have a separate solo queue for the battlegrounds.

Having enough player base to support two queues won't be a problem with new rewards and the more fun team vs team format... we already have both solo and group queues (latter with slightly longer queue times) popping.

I agree.

What would be great would be the current PVP but with the following queues:
* Solo DM
* Solo Obj (CB, CK, CTR, Dom)
* Group DM
* Group Obj (CB, CK, CTR, Dom)

Or if they want to do their new system of 4v4 and 8v8:
- solo queue for DM (4v4, with ratings)
- group queue for DM (4v4, with ratings)
- solo queue for non-DM (8v8)
- group queue for non-DM (8v8)

Moonspawn · September 12

I had an idea for a queue system that doesn't force solos to go against premades, allows everyone to participate in the leaderboards and splits the queue as little as possible:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/665468/suggestion-optimal-queue-system-for-upcoming-battlegrounds/p1

divnyi · September 12

They need to make a checkbox system like they did in dungeon finder.
A solo player can opt to ALSO join group queues as well as solo at the same time to queue faster, groups can only join group queues.

Necrotech_Master · September 12

taugrim wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

Having solo and group queue mixed is a terrible idea and I hope they address this during the PTS as this has real potential of completely ruining the battleground scene. There's a very good reason why solo and group were separated in the first place.

There is precisely zero fun as a solo player in going up against a full premade in voice comms and coordinated buff sets. Zero.

To this problem there is a very simple solution: have a separate solo queue for the battlegrounds.

Having enough player base to support two queues won't be a problem with new rewards and the more fun team vs team format... we already have both solo and group queues (latter with slightly longer queue times) popping.

I agree.

What would be great would be the current PVP but with the following queues:
* Solo DM
* Solo Obj (CB, CK, CTR, Dom)
* Group DM
* Group Obj (CB, CK, CTR, Dom)

Or if they want to do their new system of 4v4 and 8v8:
- solo queue for DM (4v4, with ratings)
- group queue for DM (4v4, with ratings)
- solo queue for non-DM (8v8)
- group queue for non-DM (8v8)

the problem with this is that this is splitting the queues too much, this increases queue times

the current existing queues are already really bad if your trying to queue as basically anything other than solo or 4 man group

to be honest i dont think its necessary for the 8v8 to be split between solo and group, considering that you can only queue into it with a group of 4 to begin with

and why exclude deathmatch from the 8v8? it should allow every mode in this one like the current random queue

Decimus · September 12

Queue times are being brought up a lot, but let's explore why queue times are as they are on Live:

Battlegrounds haven't gotten an update since 2019 when the Eld Angavar map was added - rewards haven't been updated since 2016.
The rewards as they are on Live are extremely disappointing, with the daily battleground box giving you whopping one transmute crystal for your team finishing atleast second place, as well as completely worthless item sets that you vendor for 50 gold as soon as you loot them. There are also BOP style pages, but these alone are not an incentive enough to do battlegrounds for most people and get farmed relatively quick, after which you're left with that one transmute and useless items.
Three way format, which is simply not as fun as team vs team. Many players simply do not want to queue into battlegrounds when there's a chance you'll be running to empty flags if you want to play objective or fighting outnumbered if you want to PvP and your team doesn't. Currently a lot of PvPers simply prefer to get zerged down or lag in Cyrodiil/IC since atleast they'll be fighting other players.
Lack of a competitive leaderboard/MMR system.

With a lot of these issues being solved in the new BG format, I don't think population/queue times will be an issue... unless you're simply going to have a few of these 4-man squads queueing up and just ruining the fun for everyone else to the point where everyone not running coordinated buff sets & 3 2 1 ulti dumping in voice comms will simply stop playing.

For people who enjoy that sort of gameplay, there should be a group queue... I think this is the most ideal solution, as buff sets, crossheal stacking, 3 2 1 ulti dump etc are unlikely to go anywhere.

But this does not have to come at the expense of people who want to just hop in and play competitive... and especially at the expense of people who just want to have some relaxing casual pvp in 8v8, free of all the bs that can happen in Cyrodiil/IC.

Urzigurumash · September 12

There wasn't a Group vs Solo Queue for the first few years of BGs, but the MMR was more strict so it wasn't a big problem. It can be fun to face premades if you happen to get a synergistic team of 4 experienced solos.

On Xbox anyhow, things might be different on PC. We have in-game comms by default and we all know each other in the high MMRs.

Decimus · September 12

Urzigurumash wrote: »

There wasn't a Group vs Solo Queue for the first few years of BGs, but the MMR was more strict so it wasn't a big problem. It can be fun to face premades if you happen to get a synergistic team of 4 experienced solos.

On Xbox anyhow, things might be different on PC. We have in-game comms by default and we all know each other in the high MMRs.

People know each other on PC BGs as well, and I have no doubt that with functional matchmaking that takes into account average BG performance you could get a good team... but I also have no doubt that you still have zero chance against a premade running coordinated buff sets, no matter how good of a team you get.

The problem is that the current meta allows people to effectively double their group's stats when buff sets are coordinated - instead of fighting another 4 people (in voice comms, we don't have those as default on PC), you're fighting "8" people worth of numerical stats.

Lucent Echoes+Saxhleel for example is already worth a whopping 124% crit dmg when divided across the whole group - show me two sets a solo queuer can run that gives them 124% crit damage, or even half of that.

There is no way to coordinate these sets beforehand like the group queueing premades can, you also can't coordinate classes or crossheals so you wind up doing 0 damage to people with way more stat density and heals, while also taking a lot more damage due to the buff sets.

Trust me, it's not fun or "skill based pvp" when an organized group meets unorganized solo queuers, no matter how good those solo queuers are.

During the first years of battlegrounds when group and solo queues were mixed it was a little bit more tolerable, because back in 2017 we didn't have as many buff sets as we have nowadays. No Saxhleel, Rallying Cry, Lucent Echoes, Olorime, Drake's Rush etc - most you had for group buffs was Transmutation and Powerful Assault, that's about it... and even back then it was better just to leave some BGs when you had a full premade against you, or atleast on PC EU this was the case.

Urzigurumash · September 12

Oh yeah great point, the Meta for premades is way more powerful than it was in 2018, I didn't think of that.

Well at least it won't be AS bad as live, theoretically anyhow we won't have level 500s on our team for very long.

I take it there's no leaderboard bonus for queuing solo?

Necrotech_Master · September 12

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Oh yeah great point, the Meta for premades is way more powerful than it was in 2018, I didn't think of that.

Well at least it won't be AS bad as live, theoretically anyhow we won't have level 500s on our team for very long.

I take it there's no leaderboard bonus for queuing solo?

the initial notes ive heard is that the planned new MMR is still going to be based on medal score, it sounds like its either not changing much or at all to what we have now, except they might be resetting it more often

will have to see on monday the specifics, or if they decide to change it