Yandir the Butcher (w/vHM mechs??!?) In IA? (U43)

allochthons · September 5

Edited Post:
Yandir the Butcher, a boss from the Kyne's Aegis trial, is now a boss in the Infinite Archive. On Arc One, he's using mechanics that are only seen on vet, and one mech only seen on vet hard mode. This is not reasonable for a general content section of the game.

Certainly, add the mechanics on higher arcs. But Arc One should not require IA-specific builds. It should not require resistance cap, it should not require DLC-only gear or mythics.

Responses of "getting good," are at best not helpful, and lean more towards arrogance and condescension. Please avoid them. I'm only talking about Arc 1 here. Not leader boards.

Original post:
Yandir the Butcher (first boss in Kyne's Aegis) is now a boss in the Infinite Archive. Including VET HARD MODE MECHANICS (the totems, including poison, and the fire mages and their stunning meteors).
Talk about overtuned! Please, please take away some of the HM mechs on ARC 1 (where I encountered him). Sure, add them in later, but on ARC ONE?

Julia_Nix · September 5

My brother in Christ, on arc 1 everything melts if you sneeze at it. You should optimize your build a bit it seems.

allochthons · September 5

1) I am not your brother.
2) I was on a new account, only just CP and in overland gear. That is NOT unusual for folks running IA.

If I had been on my CP2500 Deadly/P. Ansuuls 100K Arc (where my preU43 IA stickerbook is full and 100% achievements done), I would have been fine, it's true. But here's a thought. Not everyone is a top 10% player. By definition. Even when they are an excellent player (I have SoTN, IR, EoF, Alpha Predator, Inedible to name a few), if they don't have the means to get the top gear, or don't have the CP, content is hard. And Yandir? With those mechs? Is too hard at Arc 1.

Julia_Nix · September 5

Weird flex but OK, also no need to be so triggered. You can breeze through arc 1 on low CP and with crafted sets (if you have access to Oakensoul even better). If crafting is not leveled the best way is to join a guild and ask nicely for someone to craft you what you need. Like every content in this game it's all about being prepared and consistency.

allochthons · September 5

I'm in Oakensoul, Pale Order or Wading Kilt, Briarheart and Order's Wrath. And I beat Yandir. That's not the point. The point is, on Arc 1, it is too hard. I'm an experienced, end game player. It's too hard on Arc 1. Not for me. In General.

El_Borracho · September 5

I would think since Yandir is a possible boss in IA, getting him in Arc 1 is EXACTLY where you want to encounter him. Unless you want to get him on Arc 4...

FlopsyPrince · September 5

Julia_Nix wrote: »

My brother in Christ, on arc 1 everything melts if you sneeze at it. You should optimize your build a bit it seems.

And this is the problem. IA is now gated content that requires a great deal of micromanagement.

ZOS pushes this as good general content, but that doesn't satisfy the hard core, so they make it incredibly hard and effectively lock out a number of players.

You can't meet both audiences at the same time, yet that is what is being claimed.

FlopsyPrince · September 5

El_Borracho wrote: »

I would think since Yandir is a possible boss in IA, getting him in Arc 1 is EXACTLY where you want to encounter him. Unless you want to get him on Arc 4...

Many of us will not even attempt Arc 4 after getting whomped there a few times.

The content fails as a general appeal area.

El_Borracho · September 5

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

I would think since Yandir is a possible boss in IA, getting him in Arc 1 is EXACTLY where you want to encounter him. Unless you want to get him on Arc 4...

Many of us will not even attempt Arc 4 after getting whomped there a few times.

The content fails as a general appeal area.

Oh, I agree. Haven't set foot in IA since it first dropped. I can't stand that it doesn't have a save location so you have to slog through 30-40 minutes of the first 2 arcs every single time. Its extraordinarily poor design for something that is intended to be played repetitively

Necrotech_Master · September 5

the totems are not a HM mechanic

the only HM mechanic thats involved is the fire shamans

i would agree though that arc 1 and arc 2 are pretty trivial, even running solo with a companion tanking i can get through arc 3 on a pure pve dps spec though this is where it starts to get dicey for a pure dps

Reginald_leBlem · September 5

If you have a shield you can safely ignore the totems. Which are not a hardmode mechanic at all, but just lart of that fight on all difficulty levels

allochthons · September 5

I've edited the original post.
Thank you for the advice. I'm not asking how to beat it, I'm pointing out that this particular instance of IA gameplay (specifically, a vet DLC hard mode trial setup) is not reasonable to ask on Arc One. That is my only point.

CrashTest · September 5

The totems are in every mode even normal. The only things hard mode adds are the shamans and meteors from the Vrol fight.

I get what you're saying though, but is it actually doing the same amount of damage as vKA HM or is it just the mechs? If it's just the mechs, then I think that's fine.

kevkj · September 5

Yandir cannot compare in unfairness to the dragons. The fire one who spawns a million fire atros that do not move so you cannot hit them with melee range abilities and the ice one who does icy napalm strikes from hell together with room-wide damage which are extremely difficult to survive past a certain arc.

Dagoth_Rac · September 5

allochthons wrote: »

Certainly, add the mechanics on higher arcs.

That is just simply not how I have seen cycle bosses work in IA. The mechanics are always the same, regardless of Arc 1 or Arc 472. They just have more health and hit harder. The only boss with different mechanics on different Arcs is Tho'at herself.

If you want Yandir mechanics nerfed, they need to be nerfed on all Arcs. The design of IA simply does not micromanage boss mechanics and effects on an Arc-by-Arc basis.

And this is not a backward attempt to say, "You can't nerf him or he'll be too easy later!" It may be that if he is excessively hard on Arc 1, he may be excessively hard on higher Arcs, too. I just wanted to be clear that the solution you are asking for is not compatible with IA's basic design, to my experience.

Also, have you tried slowing down? Some of the bosses have mechanics that are health based, and on Arc 1 you can burn through their stages pretty fast and get overwhelmed by mechanics. I know The Warrior is like this. He became much less chaotic and messy if I slow burned him and was more methodical about fight.

spartaxoxo · September 6

I don't agree. One of the cool things about IA is getting to see cool fights from across Tamriel. A person trying to go deep into IA is going to be relieved to see him on Arc 1 so they don't need to fight him later. It's actually a huge boon to get the toughest fights out of the way in early arcs. And for those who can only do Arc 1, it does not take a long time to clear. It's okay if that's a run ender, most people will eventually have a run ended before they archive stops working.

JaxontheUnfortunate · September 9

I would say only non-dlc trial bosses should be encountered in arc 1, however after arc 1 all potential bosses should be available. Just how marauders never show up until arc 2. If too many new players get slapped around in the first arc with the more difficult bosses they might never return to IA.

tomofhyrule · September 9

I haven't seen Yandir yet; I didn't know he'd show up. Are you sure this is Yandir and not just Ysmgar? Ysmgar in the IA does have one extra mechanic that he doesn't have in the WB fight, where the sea orbs will explode when they touch him (instead of them just healing him in the WB fight), but he also loses their freezing move. Incidentally, the HM of Yandir involves him spawning Shamans and their meteors, along with his pets and totems, but I haven't seen him in the Archive.

Still, they did mesh some similar bosses together - for example both Lady Thorn and Lady Belain drop a puddle on a heavy attack, which is not a native mechanic of theirs and belongs to Lord Falgravn HM, Voidmother Elgroiaf mostly does Maebroogha's mechanics, and Vorenor Winderbourne took the bloody fist thing from Lieutentant Njordal, to name a few.

Still, the point is that many of the bosses have slightly different (or even brand new) mechanics when meeting them in the archive, and I have noticed that some bosses bring elements of their HM mechanics as well. However, they are also tuned by Arc, so even a HM mechanic is usually not as punishing on Arc 1 as it is on later Arcs. For the most part, the only true one-shots in Arc 1 are heavy knockbacks (like Ysmgar's, Molag Kena's, or a Dragon wing-slap) or something like the Serpent's World Shaper if no bubble is collected. And the heavy knockbacks can usually be avoided with a block or by clever positioning.

The point of the IA is to have a random selection of fights, and it is really a challenge to see these bosses and figure them out. For those who would like to have all mechanics beforehand, there are resources online to look up bosses, and the lack of a timer means you can pull that up and read it before you engage. The Archive is also intending to learn-as-a-gauntlet, because they can't reasonably expect that every person will know every mechanic by heart, but we should all know enough to look out for the AoEs and learn on the fly.

Benzux · September 9

I do agree on the front that some of the new bosses they added are noticeably more difficult than many of the ones that were already there. I was quite surprised seeing Yandir myself, having only done KA once before and not remembering much of the mechanics and seeing the entire floor red with adds and totems all around, certainly a much more hectic fight compared to other bosses.

Same goes for the new Marauders, I don't think I've survived for longer than 30 seconds against the werewolf one yet, and the Minotaur I was lucky to encounter right at the start of Arc 2 so it was a manageable fight, though I did still get one-tapped by a surprise heavy attack that I had barely any time to react to after rolling out of his AoE.

GuuMoonRyoung · September 9

I got a tree spirit boss today on Arc 1, Cycle 1, kept spawning those weird mouth trees that pulls players, they kept pulling me between each other, I kept killing them and the boss kept spawning them, then it started spawning lurchers, every time 2 at a time, mouth trees kept pulling me, lurchers kept hitting me and disorienting me, my stamina kept going down. But due to having 30K res, my HP was not going down. I thought to myself that I was so lucky it happened in Arc 1, Cycle 1, if it were just in Arc 2, Cycle 1, I would be done for...

adirondack · September 9

I’ve soloed to arc 7 so I’m reasonably confident in my PVE skills.

And IA is just not fun. After about arc 3 the view just isn’t worth the climb. It’s much more enjoyable as a duo - but solo I generally tap out at start of arc 3 and flip the clock. It’s just ‘meh’

Kinda wish they would have two levels of scaling / one for farming and one for achievements. Oh well - easy enough to restart.

Dragonnord · September 10

allochthons wrote: »

2) I was on a new account, only just CP and in overland gear. That is NOT unusual for folks running IA.

In Arc 1 you should obliterate everything regardless CPs, build and whatever.

Arc 1? Come on!

Syldras · September 10

allochthons wrote: »

But Arc One should not require IA-specific builds. It should not require resistance cap, it should not require DLC-only gear or mythics.

I encountered him the first time today (in 1.3), on a character to whom none of this applies. I also had no clue what would even happen, as I never played any trials (I'm not interested in grouping with random people), so I have never seen this boss before.

I found the fight a little harder than the usual arc 1 fights (although "harder" isn't the right word, I just had to pay a bit more attention), but not much. Same goes for some other of the new bosses. This is no "get good" post, just a note how I perceived that boss.

Generally, I don't think Archive as a system takes the different skill levels of the playerbase into consideration well. For some, it's too easy, for others too hard. I understand the wish that arc 1 (and maybe 2) should be easy enough for most players. But then again, for some people it will be horribly boring, with no option to skip it. A save function might help a bit, as one wouldn't have to start at 1.1 every time. Maybe even different difficulty levels with seperate ranking lists and rewards?

Necrotech_Master · September 10

adirondack wrote: »

I’ve soloed to arc 7 so I’m reasonably confident in my PVE skills.

And IA is just not fun. After about arc 3 the view just isn’t worth the climb. It’s much more enjoyable as a duo - but solo I generally tap out at start of arc 3 and flip the clock. It’s just ‘meh’

Kinda wish they would have two levels of scaling / one for farming and one for achievements. Oh well - easy enough to restart.

i usually stop at arc 3 solo as well, definitely is more time efficient

would also agree that playing in a duo is much more enjoyable, usually will go to arc 4 or higher in duo unless its a bad run vision wise

allochthons · September 10

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

allochthons wrote: »

Certainly, add the mechanics on higher arcs.

That is just simply not how I have seen cycle bosses work in IA. The mechanics are always the same, regardless of Arc 1 or Arc 472. They just have more health and hit harder. The only boss with different mechanics on different Arcs is Tho'at herself.

Interesting. I didn't know that. I haven't gone beyond Arc 5? (whichever is needed for the final achievement and title), since it doesn't interest me. Thanks for the information.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I don't agree. One of the cool things about IA is getting to see cool fights from across Tamriel. A person trying to go deep into IA is going to be relieved to see him on Arc 1 so they don't need to fight him later. It's actually a huge boon to get the toughest fights out of the way in early arcs.

I thought they were totally random and therefore could repeat? Good to know if not. Thanks. I totally agree that it's fun to see content from everywhere. One of my favorite aspects of IA.

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I haven't seen Yandir yet; I didn't know he'd show up. Are you sure this is Yandir and not just Ysmgar? Ysmgar in the IA does have one extra mechanic that he doesn't have in the WB fight, where the sea orbs will explode when they touch him (instead of them just healing him in the WB fight), but he also loses their freezing move. Incidentally, the HM of Yandir involves him spawning Shamans and their meteors, along with his pets and totems, but I haven't seen him in the Archive.

Yes, very sure. The shamens with their stunning meteors and the totems are there. The pets, thank goodness, are not. He's new to the IA with U43.

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

Also, have you tried slowing down? Some of the bosses have mechanics that are health based, and on Arc 1 you can burn through their stages pretty fast and get overwhelmed by mechanics. I know The Warrior is like this. He became much less chaotic and messy if I slow burned him and was more methodical about fight.

This is a good reminder. Similar to the Rink of Frozen Blood in Maelstrom. For the Warrior, I scribed an AoE interrupt similar to the DK Inhale/Deep Breath, but I haven't encountered him since.

Varana · September 10

Also, calling certain mechanics that appear in vet versions or hm versions in the original, "hardmode mechanics" in IA is misleading.

There are many mechanics, esp. from trial bosses, that may look like the original ones, or take their inspirations from there, or work roughly similarly. But these mechanics aren't just copypasted from the trial. They're always adapted to the specific situation that is IA. "There are totems" doesn't really mean much by itself.

Necrotech_Master · September 10

allochthons wrote: »

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

allochthons wrote: »

Certainly, add the mechanics on higher arcs.

That is just simply not how I have seen cycle bosses work in IA. The mechanics are always the same, regardless of Arc 1 or Arc 472. They just have more health and hit harder. The only boss with different mechanics on different Arcs is Tho'at herself.

Interesting. I didn't know that. I haven't gone beyond Arc 5? (whichever is needed for the final achievement and title), since it doesn't interest me. Thanks for the information.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I don't agree. One of the cool things about IA is getting to see cool fights from across Tamriel. A person trying to go deep into IA is going to be relieved to see him on Arc 1 so they don't need to fight him later. It's actually a huge boon to get the toughest fights out of the way in early arcs.

I thought they were totally random and therefore could repeat? Good to know if not. Thanks. I totally agree that it's fun to see content from everywhere. One of my favorite aspects of IA.

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I haven't seen Yandir yet; I didn't know he'd show up. Are you sure this is Yandir and not just Ysmgar? Ysmgar in the IA does have one extra mechanic that he doesn't have in the WB fight, where the sea orbs will explode when they touch him (instead of them just healing him in the WB fight), but he also loses their freezing move. Incidentally, the HM of Yandir involves him spawning Shamans and their meteors, along with his pets and totems, but I haven't seen him in the Archive.

Yes, very sure. The shamens with their stunning meteors and the totems are there. The pets, thank goodness, are not. He's new to the IA with U43.

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

Also, have you tried slowing down? Some of the bosses have mechanics that are health based, and on Arc 1 you can burn through their stages pretty fast and get overwhelmed by mechanics. I know The Warrior is like this. He became much less chaotic and messy if I slow burned him and was more methodical about fight.

This is a good reminder. Similar to the Rink of Frozen Blood in Maelstrom. For the Warrior, I scribed an AoE interrupt similar to the DK Inhale/Deep Breath, but I haven't encountered him since.

arc 4 is the furthest you need to go for achievements, anything past 4 is basically the same as 4, but just further increasing enemy health and damage

for most of the bosses, i usually dont have problems just burning them down, especially in arc 1 (unless im on a tank character, arc 1 bosses tend to die in less than 30 seconds (ive actually 1 shotted an arc 1 boss with pustulent globs before), usually almost any offensive vision allows me to kill them in about 10 seconds or less

if im running with a friend, we can continue doing that up through at least arc 3, even killed an arc 4 tho'at in 90 seconds before because we had a lot of good offense visions and both players had an avatar verse active (the only reason it takes 90 seconds is the spawning animations of the different phases, especially the dragon)

the warrior is one you definitely do want to burn down, especially when he gets to his execute phase so your not dealing with starfall (this really hurts in late arcs)

Veinblood1965 · September 10

Julia_Nix wrote: »

My brother in Christ, on arc 1 everything melts if you sneeze at it. You should optimize your build a bit it seems.

It's ARC one, it should be easy for new people. It's not cheese on a new person for any of those first few levels. Why should the newbies be excluded from having some success at least in Arc one by having difficult mechanics that they cannot burn through.

allochthons · September 11

robpr · September 11

Only boss that might be overtuned in IA is Vanos Velador (the guy from Cradle of Shadows) only because of the sheer amount of damage he does. The mechanics are simple, just bash the shades and then kill the clones, but the damage of the spin or the heavy attack with the shade alive combined with the waves from the statues is high enough to 2-tap non-blocking dd in dd gear.