Theist_VII wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

I don't disagree that Templars need something.

But... Scaling a damage shield on spell damage just won't be balanced.

I'm not saying Hardened Ward is in a balanced spot because it isn't. For those that choose to bolster their defenses and make stacking magicka and major/minor vitality together their priority its completely broken.

You can realistically achieve a 19k Ward with a 10k tooltip heal. And while I state that those that play this way are missing out on a lot of damage it can't be dismissed that this is possible (you'll likely see these setups with 3-4k spell damage).

But at the end of the day stacking Magicka/Stamina is an inefficient way to increase your damage where as Spell / Weapon damage is one of the optimal ways.

1096 Magicka (one piece bonus) > ~1424 Magicka after bonuses = 136 equivalent spell damage.

129 Spell damage (one piece bonus) > ~181 spell damage after bonuses.

So Magicka is about 30% less efficient stacking towards damage when compared to spell damage.

So yes Templars need something, no this isn't the way to do it.

I'd love for shield to scale with spell damage, but with a lower coefficient than stacking max HP/max mag. So for example a 50k max mag build with 5k spell damage should have the same shield size as a 25k max mag build and 7k spell damage. Numbers can be adjusted, but the general idea is that the lower mag pool will prevent them from spamming Ward but still allow Ward to be used in spell damage builds.

At least until ZOS handles healing scaling off of damage, I see no reason as to why they couldn’t do this simple change.

Of course it wouldn’t be enough though, the cost is too high for a basic ward that does laughable damage on impact. The reason Conjured Ward is strong, has everything to do with the fact that it’s doubling down on defense, you’re getting a decent burst heal on an already large shield. For Radiant Ward and Blazing Shield to be comparable, both Sun Shields would need to do as much damage as that heal, while creating as big of a shield. Or have it start smaller but having the capability to do more than Conjured if they want to keep the niché mechanic.

We’re putting ourselves in danger at arms reach of multiple enemies for a weaker shield. There’s a clear design flaw that needs to be addressed.

They could simply increase the tooltip. It shouldn’t be Hardened Ward tooltip, but it can be decent enough to be used as a defensive skill.

katorga wrote: »

I agree. The changes to sorc brought it up to par with DK, NB, Warden.

Templar needs to be brought up to par.

I have no clue where Arcanist sits. Don't play mine enough to have a feel.

Necro....dunno if its even possible to fix after all the nerfs.

fwiw, I don't use ward in CP any more, scribing made it unnecessary.

Nah I disagree.

I think the reason you claim this change makes Sorc “balanced” compared to other classes is because you either don’t run an optimized build or don’t have a solid defensive rotation.

This is a CMX screenshot of my DPS vs a magsorc.




I did 6.4k DPS over a 5 minute duel. Other than BA max value being bugged at the end, those max damage numbers mean the Sorc is fully penned and has minimal crit resistance. Anybody taking a 7.9k Cwep and 9.2k Curse will explode within 30s, unless they are a magsorc lol.



That magsorc tanked 6.4k DPS over a 5 minute fight with practically no armor. No class in the game can do that. Imagine what would happen if he actually built decent resistances. It would only make his shield stronger and make him tougher to kill.

I feel like templar and necro have just been forgotten about and are just outdated in every sense. If you want to play an actual class stick to the others.

Theist_VII wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

Theist_VII wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

It's really funny though how this entire thread thought OP was seriously suggesting "spell damage Sun Shield" and not just making a satirical point of how ridiculous Hardened Ward is (and how much Templar gets ignored).

It’s twice as funny that even if the shield scaled with spell damage, it would still suck.

When you full send health with the skill, it doesn’t have a high enough value to be useful, so using the same co-efficient except changing the value scaling it, you’d be left in the same situation.

Xylena gets the thread. If sun shield gave the same tooltip shield with 7k spell damage as hardened ward does with 50k mag, it would not suck lol.

Here’s the thing, it would though.

The ONLY reasons why Hardened Ward is as strong as it is, is completely dependent on the fact that the shield is doubling down on defensive benefits, while scaling off of a stat that is through the roof because of the passives that make up the class.

You get a ward and a heal that both scale off of the same things. One skill to cover your entire defense.

Templar is still riddled with skills that push outward in multiple directions and at values that are insulting. To hammer this home, last patch we got an Immobilize on a Damage Dealer skill.

The damage of Sun Shield would need to off-set the heal from Conjured Ward in order to be comparable, but that will never be the case as Templar has nowhere near the capability of building damage at the same rate a Sorcerer can stack Max Magicka.

Sorry but what are you even saying?
You can build 40k hp on templar with 8.4k spell damage (ravager). I run essence thief, gaze of sithis, and maelstrom 2h with that as well. Perfect sustain as a woodelf with regen mundas and jewels of misrule.
Templar skills scale with hp and spell damage.

Also fyi I could push 9k spell damage with some tweaks like FB rallying cry instead of essence thief, or clever alchemist, or whatever.

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Back then sorc needed to use 2-3 shields to stay alive

That's called "balance" and MagSorc was still S tier. This is not a "one button" game and never has been.

IDK with arcanist and sorc, its feeling hella 1 buttony.

I rather them nerf beam and add a better snare to jabs that last for 3 seconds instead of 0.5. And have ritual of retribution heal just the player for 100% of the damage it causes.

Change magicka jabs to flame damage and stamina to bleeding. Fix power of the light scaling or give it 100% critical chance after meeting a certain threshold. Add some major or minor buffs to Repentance after using it. Like major/minor courage.

Make stamina entirely different than playing magicka/hybrid. I want to stack my weapon or spell damage high as possible for damage and healing, or run crit damage and crit heals.

mmtaniac wrote: »

Templar still lacking.
Defense lacking.
Damage not exist except strongest execute ever.
Healing lacking because defense lacking if they improve defense than healing could be at least acceptable.

Purges are too weak in current metas, not enough purges for too high cost for skill that is not made to be spammable but healing over time ability.
Stationary defense for too much magicka. We need mobility not stationary skills. At least give us possibility to be able to move with Cleansing ritual. Those skills should be 100% mobile not stationary. Cleansing Ritual should be smaller range but mobile i like how work aura from Saint and Seducers mythic. Ritual should be identical with aura like effect. We move with our HOME.
First option:To make purge work and change it from spammable they could add templar possibility to cast his own synergy of this skill. This way i could collect dots and suddenly remove them when enemy is not ready for that. Off course remove purge from cast.
Second Option: Clean 5 effects at cast and 2 effects every few seconds. This ability cost is too high for spammable ability.

I know you are kidding. You didn't just say templar's defenses are lacking LMAO. What could you possibly need? Free Minor Prot. Major prot if you use Topple, which you should be using to proc off balance+Exploiter. AKA infinite sustain and 10% extra dmg. 1 Ability procs all of that. Major and minor prot/ off balance/ 10% damage. tankiness/Sustain/Damage.

Additionally, Templar gets a 5 negative effect purge, that also serves as a HoT, and purges tm8's. Their source of Major resolve just so happens to proc Mending/ and gives sustain back. While also healing a lot if you stand in it. *but dont have too*.

Let's not talk about the most cracked HoT in the game, I don't think anything comes close but maybe a high HP dark cloak magblade. This ability is Living Dark. Or templar *bubble*. With this skill and purge alone, you can tank A LOT of damage. You add the scribe heal with vitality, and templar hits 6k hps, and even more in pve.

Survivability and defense IS NOT NEEDED on plar. I'm sorry to inform you. Templar needs attention in their damage department. Removing an entire jab and not compensating, adjusting the scaling on PL<POTL to where it almost never gets the full 200% damage buff, meaning plar doesn't get decent enough burst without using a specific niche build that will never work in Openworld.

Saying templar lacks in healing and defense's is like saying Nightblade don't have enough burst damage. That's all the class has.

Full magicka templar is ok. Still suck in jabs department but no sustain problems. Easier to heal and defense easy to manage sustain.
Try stamina one in pvp and you will feel terror in current meta. Less magicka means more costly purges still you need to use Bubble and toppling charge for your Major protection. On high dot meta it's max 3 casts and your magicka is out. That's why i propose different appoach to purge more efficient and specific and give you option to conserve some magicka.
Templar as a class not have passive that regenerate him magicka. We have only rune(magicka templar have it, stamina one regen stamina) and sustain set which is not enough sometimes.
If you lack magicka you lack defense. If you lack defense you have to heal self non stop. If you have to heal you no deal damage.

Leave it alone please. It always turns into a buf nerf cycle that lasts multiple patches after which god knows what state the class will be left in.

gariondavey wrote: »

Theist_VII wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

Theist_VII wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

Theist_VII wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

It's really funny though how this entire thread thought OP was seriously suggesting "spell damage Sun Shield" and not just making a satirical point of how ridiculous Hardened Ward is (and how much Templar gets ignored).

It’s twice as funny that even if the shield scaled with spell damage, it would still suck.

When you full send health with the skill, it doesn’t have a high enough value to be useful, so using the same co-efficient except changing the value scaling it, you’d be left in the same situation.

Xylena gets the thread. If sun shield gave the same tooltip shield with 7k spell damage as hardened ward does with 50k mag, it would not suck lol.

Here’s the thing, it would though.

The ONLY reasons why Hardened Ward is as strong as it is, is completely dependent on the fact that the shield is doubling down on defensive benefits, while scaling off of a stat that is through the roof because of the passives that make up the class.

You get a ward and a heal that both scale off of the same things. One skill to cover your entire defense.

Templar is still riddled with skills that push outward in multiple directions and at values that are insulting. To hammer this home, last patch we got an Immobilize on a Damage Dealer skill.

The damage of Sun Shield would need to off-set the heal from Conjured Ward in order to be comparable, but that will never be the case as Templar has nowhere near the capability of building damage at the same rate a Sorcerer can stack Max Magicka.

Sorry but what are you even saying?
You can build 40k hp on templar with 8.4k spell damage (ravager). I run essence thief, gaze of sithis, and maelstrom 2h with that as well. Perfect sustain as a woodelf with regen mundas and jewels of misrule.
Templar skills scale with hp and spell damage.

Also fyi I could push 9k spell damage with some tweaks like FB rallying cry instead of essence thief, or clever alchemist, or whatever.

This is what I’m talking about. With trial buffs, this is what your stat sheet looks like when you build into all damage, with the only exception being three protective jewelry on a Nord, because you need the resistance to allow your HoTs to keep up with the damage you’re taking in todays game.

500 Balorgh, Nirnhoned New Moon Acolyte greatsword front bar, and 33% stamina on Coral Riptide with Black Rose dual wield backbar, that is full investment… on a dummy that boosts your damage. Wicked unrealistic effort to get 9,750.

Could the damage be a little higher?
Sure.

You are not going to get higher damage unless you run Infused jewelry, a race with w/s damage, and front bar Coral with Clever backbar using Sea Serpent’s Coil.

Further affirming the point that Templars have to full send damage like no other class in order to be effective. Any good build on Plar is going to rotate around Essence Thief, Deadly, Riptide, NMA, Moon Hunter, Order’s Wrath, Rallying Cry, and Draugrkin.

That being said, even with stats similar to the screenshot, Titan’s build was phased out patches ago, it got to the point in today’s game where you can’t survive getting pressured without further defensive investment, and you don’t have enough damage… even with 9,750 weapon/spell damage… to make Power of the Light break through a Sorcerer or Arcanist’s defense. This is coming from the perspective of the Sorcerer and the Arcanist as I’ve fought his unbeatable build from just last year on both and all he could do was roll dodge around.

Keep in mind that this is a player who doesn’t miss a weave…

Yeah not sure why you are typing all of this out.
I'm telling you in one of my solo bg builds I have 8.4k spell damage self buffed, with 40k hp 30k resists and great sustain. I'm in 3 damage sets just like magsorcs get to build. Sunshield, if altered like I suggest, giving the same size shield at 7k spell damage as a 50k mag pool magsorc's hardened ward, would give me a very potent defence tool.

Damage is high in bgs, and you have to play very carefully on a templar or you will get obliterated. Magsorcs are able to streak around with a ridiculous shield while building full damage. It would be nice if templar was givin the same treatment.

Sorcerers do not need to full send max magicka, they need one 5 piece set for max mag, death dealer, and then whatever else they want to run.

On Templar you only have one set that can be swapped out instead of two, so yeah, it’s a little different.

While I agree with the fact that it would be nice if Templar was given the same treatment other classes have, only adding a w/s damage scaler to Sun Shield will not be enough of a change to put the class in a good spot, if anything, look to @mmtaniac’s breakdown of the problem.

mmtaniac wrote: »

… If you lack magicka you lack defense. If you lack defense you have to heal self non stop. If you have to heal you no deal damage.

Fixing Templar is to understand the above.

Give max stam more access to defense in the form of cost reduction or cost conversion of skills like Toppling Charge into stamina, and then tack on necessary buffs to those defensive skills like Major Brutality/Sorcery or Major Courage to Sun Shield, sever the buff from Jabs and give it full cleave, and then rework Repentance to give either Minor or Major Vitality while slotted on either bar.

FoJul wrote: »

Theist_VII wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

Saying templar lacks in healing and defense's is like saying Nightblade don't have enough burst damage. That's all the class has.

Maybe you’re thinking of Magicka leaning Templar?

If I’m not mistaken, @mmtaniac plays Stam, and anyone who’s played Stamplar since the Elemental Susceptibility change will tell you that open world is an absolute nightmare now.

Extended Ritual is about 5,000 Magicka, and purges 5 negative effects. Negative effects like Burning, Chilled, Concussed, Poisoned, Diseased, Hemorrhage, any Minor and Major negative effects, any DoTs, any Snares, literally anything.

When you have 15,000 Magicka on a good day, you need to divest yourself away from your already lacking damage to try to keep up with the flood of negative effects that are commonplace in todays game.

Most complaints you see about Templar have nothing to do with the Magicka leaning side of things, other than Dark Flare, Sun Shield, and Nova being useless, and both morphs of Jabs not doing full damage in an AoE given they are reduced by Evasion.

Stam and mag focused builds don't exist in a power standing POV. If you are building into stam only and only getting stam recovery, it's a build issue, and maybe you need to take advantage of the Hybridization changes.

That being said, on stamplar, you can adjust some abilities and make it fit better, but overall the toolkit provided is still Stacked 80% defensive 20% offensive. No one is spamming 5 back to back Rituals, if you wanna do that, then run sustain set and sustain glyphs, otherwise learn how to perfect your healing rotation.

Templar DOES NOT need anymore defensive buffs. I said this about sorc before Ward got buffed, and where are we now.

Give plar more damage, idc how you do it, but im tired of seeing every plar sitting in the back spamming beam. Its so bland and boring.

First of all, I’m not building into stam and only stam recovery, I’m not building into any recoveries. Anyone who’s played more than 5 minutes of Templar over the course of the last year or two will tell you that it’s solely on Essence Thief to sustain you. Don’t believe me?

Try building without it.

Now for defensive skills. There is no 1-size fits all defensive skill on Templar. You need these exact skills on every open world build to struggle for the slightest bit of success.

• Extended Ritual
• Living Dark
• Restoring Rune
• Resolving Vigor
• Honor the Dead (or Healing Soul)

Out of every class, Templar has the least bar space and build diversity because there are so many skills that are staples to any build due to how mediocre they all are.. yes, even Living Dark. If Living Dark was such an overloaded great skill, you wouldn’t need the other 4 necessary skills to support it. Looks great on paper though, I’ll give you that, it reads 5k a second but you’re never getting that value, especially fighting Sorcerers and Nightblades, which just so happen to be everywhere.

Let’s break it down though as a few things you’ve said I find amusing. You say, “build into sustain” and “build issue” in the same post you’ve said the class is lacking in damage. You can’t build into sustain without throwing your damage even further.

So which build issue is it?

• More sustain and less damage?
• More damage and less sustain?

@gariondavey’s OP with the suggestion to Sun Shield is deep rooted in the fact that you cannot deviate away from weapon/spell damage on Templar due to your entire defense being dependent on that stat. Their suggestion makes sense even though I don’t feel it’s enough to make the skill competitive with the other 5 mandated ones and that’s what it would need to be.

All of this is full circle to @mmtaniac’s assessment of the issue that I quoted earlier. You cannot fix the damage until you’ve fixed the previously stated problems with sustain, because great unsustainable damage is something you can already achieve on Templar with either Snipe or Uppercut instead of Jabs and let me tell you, you’re dying to any mediocre pressure build that comes knocking.

Replacing those weapon skills with equally strong class skills will not change that fact.

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Theist_VII wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

Saying templar lacks in healing and defense's is like saying Nightblade don't have enough burst damage. That's all the class has.

Maybe you’re thinking of Magicka leaning Templar?

If I’m not mistaken, @mmtaniac plays Stam, and anyone who’s played Stamplar since the Elemental Susceptibility change will tell you that open world is an absolute nightmare now.

Extended Ritual is about 5,000 Magicka, and purges 5 negative effects. Negative effects like Burning, Chilled, Concussed, Poisoned, Diseased, Hemorrhage, any Minor and Major negative effects, any DoTs, any Snares, literally anything.

When you have 15,000 Magicka on a good day, you need to divest yourself away from your already lacking damage to try to keep up with the flood of negative effects that are commonplace in todays game.

Most complaints you see about Templar have nothing to do with the Magicka leaning side of things, other than Dark Flare, Sun Shield, and Nova being useless, and both morphs of Jabs not doing full damage in an AoE given they are reduced by Evasion.

Don't use jabs, just use weapon skills.

Beat you to it.

Theist_VII wrote: »

…All of this is full circle to @mmtaniac’s assessment of the issue that I quoted earlier. You cannot fix the damage until you’ve fixed the previously stated problems with sustain, because great unsustainable damage is something you can already achieve on Templar with either Snipe or Uppercut instead of Jabs and let me tell you, you’re dying to any mediocre pressure build that comes knocking.

Replacing those weapon skills with equally strong class skills will not change that fact.