NB skill line adjustment is so bad, melee stemNB goodbye

Tommy_The_Gun · August 3

bladenick wrote: »

For PVP, currently I just use surprise attack as spammable, so in most case melee NB will slot this skill, it get 6s major resolve, as it spamable, 6s is quite good
After patch43, I need figure out other way, as cast shadow path is not option as I don’t slot this, need cast cloak even I don’t need invisible, just for major resolve, it really very bad for spamable surprise attack build

Since NBs for the most part use cloak (both morphs), in the next update this will need to be cast at least every 12 or 14 seconds (depending on how many pieces of heavy armour one is wearing). Also, if you have one shadow ability on 1 bar, you will need to have another shadow ability of 2nd bar to avoid losing health when u swap bars (3% max health per Shadow ability slotted).

The biggest issue I can see here is that in PvE it will break rotation a bit too much (especially for stam NB) and in PvP it will be way harder as you will need to keep track on this buff on top of keeping track of other buffs as it will not be active when you start fighting. It will be especially painful for melee builds and stam melee builds in particular. Which is weird cuz melee builds in general are way behind ranged ones and stam is also in general way behind mag, as mag benefits way more from hybridization. This is pretty much true for all classes and NB is no exception here.

Also, there is something that no one seem to be talking about. Having a buff last for longer but being triggered less often vs shorter duration and triggered more often means that it will be much more susceptible to purges/buff removing skills/sets, and there is plenty of those in Cyro.

BananaBender · August 3

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

The biggest issue I can see here is that in PvE it will break rotation a bit too much (especially for stam NB)

As someone mentioned previously, the duration fits perfectly with the duration of Twisting Path, so I don't really see how this breaks the rotation at all.

Morvan · August 4

The passive is much better now, it lasts 12 seconds, any nightblade, on both PvE or PvP has at least path, shade or cloak in their kit, you will have 100% time on the passive if you're rotating it right. The change was a pretty good buff overall.

LittlePinkDot · August 5

Morvan wrote: »

The passive is much better now, it lasts 12 seconds, any nightblade, on both PvE or PvP has at least path, shade or cloak in their kit, you will have 100% time on the passive if you're rotating it right. The change was a pretty good buff overall.

I don't use twisting path or shade in PvP.

Galeriano2 · August 5

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Morvan wrote: »

The passive is much better now, it lasts 12 seconds, any nightblade, on both PvE or PvP has at least path, shade or cloak in their kit, you will have 100% time on the passive if you're rotating it right. The change was a pretty good buff overall.

I don't use twisting path or shade in PvP.

I would assume You're using cloak.

LittlePinkDot · August 5

Galeriano2 wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Morvan wrote: »

The passive is much better now, it lasts 12 seconds, any nightblade, on both PvE or PvP has at least path, shade or cloak in their kit, you will have 100% time on the passive if you're rotating it right. The change was a pretty good buff overall.

I don't use twisting path or shade in PvP.

I would assume You're using cloak.

Yes and I can do that regularly because I'm Magicka NB and not Stamina NB. There's no reason to choose stamina NB in PvP.

StarOfElyon · August 5

NuarBlack wrote: »

Sorry, but this seems like a NB entitlement problem. Many Stam classes have had to cast a magicka ability to maintain major resolve. Even before hybridization you still built around optimizing using both resource pools. Stam infact had an advantage cause draining mag didn't mean you wouldn't be able to break free unlike magicka builds that had to make sure they didn't burn too much Stam to not be able to break free when needed.

Yeah it really sounds like they've never played anything but night blade.

Tommy_The_Gun · August 5

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Yes and I can do that regularly because I'm Magicka NB and not Stamina NB. There's no reason to choose stamina NB in PvP.

I think this is also true in PvE as well.

Hybridization seemed good, but it turned out to be a huge buff for magicka builds, while stamina benefited very little.

It seems to me like ZOS has some bias towards mag builds. I mean even with the Scribing system, you can not make stamina destro or resto skills, but you can make magicka versions of all new stamina weapon scribing skills. When I 1st heard of this system, I was really hoping that it will be possible to for example make stam healer, but it just ended up with a disappointment...

Naftal · August 5

StemNB can use megicka abilities and vice versa and they need to do that to properly sustain like every other class since hybridization update.

BananaBender · August 5

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Yes and I can do that regularly because I'm Magicka NB and not Stamina NB. There's no reason to choose stamina NB in PvP.

I think this is also true in PvE as well.

Hybridization seemed good, but it turned out to be a huge buff for magicka builds, while stamina benefited very little.

It seems to me like ZOS has some bias towards mag builds. I mean even with the Scribing system, you can not make stamina destro or resto skills, but you can make magicka versions of all new stamina weapon scribing skills. When I 1st heard of this system, I was really hoping that it will be possible to for example make stam healer, but it just ended up with a disappointment ...

In PvE stamina builds are way better than magicka ones. The only class where magicka is better is Warden, and that will change next patch as well. Some classes are close between magicka and stamina, but stamina is just more versatile. Which ties into the point with scribing. There are more options to scribe for magicka, since there is only one weapon to choose from for magicka DDs. Stamina builds have way more variety.

There is still no good magicka spammable in the game. Some are okay, but only see play on classes where the class spammable sucks even more (mainly warden). While stamina builds have plenty of good spammables to choose from even outside their class. For example, Rapid Strikes, Whirling Blades, Snipe, and even more niche and situational ones. On top of all this, there is now the script to boost Martial damage, which even further pushes stamina builds ahead.

bar_boss_A · August 5

so to sum it up it is a slight discomfort/nerf to nightblade in PvP and a slight buff in PvE Dps.
10/10 appreciated change as nightblade performs (too) well in PvP and bad in PvE.

Morvan · August 5

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Yes and I can do that regularly because I'm Magicka NB and not Stamina NB. There's no reason to choose stamina NB in PvP.

That's the good thing about the change, you don't need to cast it regularly as before, you only need to cast a shadow skill every 12 seconds and you won't lose the passive, that's easily doable either you're stam or mag.

Tommy_The_Gun · August 5

bar_boss_A wrote: »

so to sum it up it is a slight discomfort/nerf to nightblade in PvP and a slight buff in PvE Dps.
10/10 appreciated change as nightblade performs (too) well in PvP and bad in PvE.

Almost, but with a caveats:

- The nerf only affects melee builds and for the most part only stam nb - which performs worse than mag nb in PvP & PvE.
- For mag nb it is a non-issue in PvP.
- For PvE, stam nb will feel the nerf, while for mag nb it is a tiny buff or something that you will not even notice.
- I am not mentioning "true" hybrid builds that split resources 50/50 cuz those are not meta and if some niche build is - those would also not feel the nerf nor buff.

The weird part is ranged builds are already far superior anyway, but for whatever reason melee gets nerfed lol

Morvan · August 5

I'm still trying to see where you're all seeing a nerf, you HAVE to be running at least one shadow skill no matter what your setup is, every nightblade that is not terribly rotating from now on will have 100% uptime on the passive you're claiming to have lost, they doubled the duration of it.

You DON'T need a super reliable source of major resolve because it will last 12 seconds for you now, even before the change you're already supposed to be casting a shadow skill at least once during that timespan, stamina nightblades already do that with no sustain issues.

The only real nerf from the change is that veiled strike won't be getting 3% extra health from the shadow passive anymore, but that's easily compensated by the extra crit chance you'll be getting from the assassination line.

Tommy_The_Gun · August 6

Morvan wrote: »

I'm still trying to see where you're all seeing a nerf, you HAVE to be running at least one shadow skill no matter what your setup is, every nightblade that is not terribly rotating from now on will have 100% uptime on the passive you're claiming to have lost, they doubled the duration of it.

Actually, NBs for the most part run 2 shadow skills - one for each bar, since if you would only run one, then as soon as you bar swap you would lose 3% of your health (Dark Vigor passive).

After the update, most melee NBs will still run Veiled Strike, as it is very good spamable, but in order to keep the Dark Vigor passive & prevent health loss you would also need another shadow skill on top of Veiled Strike spamable (as it is moved to different skill tree & is no longer a shadow skill). And you also still need a way to proc Shadow Barrier, so you want to have at least one skill that will be used to proc the passive & other to keep Dark Vigor on both bars with same health bonus.

So that is why for the most part it hurts stam melee nb. Not only you won't be able to proc Shadow Barrier using stamina, but you will also have another mag costing skill & you will have to figure out how to sustain it. I mean you can just slot it & not use it but that is not the point. Personally, since I use Turn Evil, I may end up being forced to swap it to NB fear skill (can't even remember how it was called lol), but all I remember is that it is mag costing skill that is inferior to Turn Evil (Turn Evil is way better) and on top of it, Turn Evil costs stamina & it triggers FG passives.

bladenick · August 6

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Morvan wrote: »

I'm still trying to see where you're all seeing a nerf, you HAVE to be running at least one shadow skill no matter what your setup is, every nightblade that is not terribly rotating from now on will have 100% uptime on the passive you're claiming to have lost, they doubled the duration of it.

Actually, NBs for the most part run 2 shadow skills - one for each bar, since if you would only run one, then as soon as you bar swap you would lose 3% of your health (Dark Vigor passive).

After the update, most melee NBs will still run Veiled Strike, as it is very good spamable, but in order to keep the Dark Vigor passive & prevent health loss you would also need another shadow skill on top of Veiled Strike spamable (as it is moved to different skill tree & is no longer a shadow skill). And you also still need a way to proc Shadow Barrier, so you want to have at least one skill that will be used to proc the passive & other to keep Dark Vigor on both bars with same health bonus.

So that is why for the most part it hurts stam melee nb. Not only you won't be able to proc Shadow Barrier using stamina, but you will also have another mag costing skill & you will have to figure out how to sustain it. I mean you can just slot it & not use it but that is not the point. Personally, since I use Turn Evil, I may end up being forced to swap it to NB fear skill (can't even remember how it was called lol), but all I remember is that it is mag costing skill that is inferior to Turn Evil (Turn Evil is way better) and on top of it, Turn Evil costs stamina & it triggers FG passives.

The skill slotting is annoy , there difficult to slot each shadow skill in both bar, and I don’t use shadow path , shall the pain for all non shadow pass NB,

And I’m melee build with spamable conceal weapon, my build definite weaker after U43

bar_boss_A · August 6

with all the "unnecessary NB buff" threads popping up over the last two updates and ppl whining NB is too strong in PvP I see this as a win? Ppl asked for nerf and got it - be happy it is a minor one

Morvan · August 7

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Actually, NBs for the most part run 2 shadow skills - one for each bar, since if you would only run one, then as soon as you bar swap you would lose 3% of your health (Dark Vigor passive).

I was trying to be inclusive when I said "at least one", as if even with only one Shadow skill you'd still be getting 100% uptime on Shadow Barrier. As for Dark Vigor, honestly, having extra HP for Blur and crit chance for Veiled Strike makes much more sense, on PvP you likely have cloak on frontbar and path on backbar, those 3% will still be there, you'd need more Shadow skills to stack more HP tho, yes.

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

And you also still need a way to proc Shadow Barrier, so you want to have at least one skill that will be used to proc the passive & other to keep Dark Vigor on both bars with same health bonus.

And hence why I'm trying to explain that won't be a problem, they buffed the duration on Shadow Barrier, most nbs are already running 2+ Shadow skills, most of these skills don't last longer than 12s which means you'll be recasting them before losing uptime.

This change was a buff, now you can literally ditch Veiled Strike for another spammable and still have Shadow Barrier active all the time.

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

So that is why for the most part it hurts stam melee nb. Not only you won't be able to proc Shadow Barrier using stamina

It literally won't hurt them at all, it shouldn't change the way you're already playing it in fact, as a stamblade you're already running magicka costing Shadow skills, if sustaining them wasn't a problem then, why would it be a problem now? And they all proc Shadow Barrier, except now it lasts 12 seconds instead of 6, so you don't need Veiled Strike for that anymore.

tsaescishoeshiner · August 8

DPS don't need Major Resolve, and you can get it from Twisting Path if really needed. Or you can just use Surprise attack once every x seconds, which isn't ideal, but more damage than some class Major Resolve skills. (Scribed skills could be a solution if they were better.)

Twisting Pagh probably should have its cost depend on your highest max resource. While most builds use skills from both resource pools now, the armor system still penalizes you for diversifying too much because you have to choose between stam vs magicka cost reduction.

pklemming · August 9

What I don't get is how this skill was fine for 10 years in that skill line, and now it is suddenly not OK? Why? They have so many things we have requested for them to fix, or adjust and they come out with this tripe.

It is like the necro and ulti out of combat. Now, it is suddenly not OK? Are they deliberately trying to push people out of the game, because these uncalled for nerf has zero benefit for the players. Nada, Nothing. What an earth are they on'?

OFC, none of this matters, because they don't listen to their playerbase. Bad changes after bad changes. They seem to forget a game is supposed to be fun, not Nerffest 2024, the worst festival ever.

majulook · August 13

They never listen to the player base.

They have a set of changes that are made well in advance of being placed on PTS. Changes are put on PTS just so they have some minimal testing, and the player feed back just to placate you and make it appear that your comments matter. But its basically only to verify that the changes function.

The new chapter was horrible a empty zone and the grind of Scribing. Up next House Tours and a more of the EA that lots players do not like or use.

They make lots of changes that do not really do anything for players but annoy them.

Vulkunne · August 14

You know, to my utter shame and semi-amusement it never even occurred to me that SA was being sponsored by Shadow-Ward passive. Though I did see how SA buffed health. So we're also losing that health buff as well now.

So at first I also thought this re-alignment was a good idea. But now, I'm going to have to agree with everyone else this is not a good idea and it will bring bad things. NB is weak. I don't care what anyone else says, I know some streamers hate NB for reasons and I get that, but why do this sort of thing and make the NB even more irrelevant?

Anyone tried fighting one of these Sorcs recently with your Stamblade? Its hell. There's literally like no contest. Sorcs win almost like every time in a 1v1. And don't say that Pale Order or Siphon is the big answer because its not. The way its setup now is an answer because when the NB attacks, we have something to help cover that close encounter. The way people heal and do things we don't have time to cast another shadow ability that really has nothing to do with the fight itself. No no no you cast that beforehand... not during the fight. You cast that beforehand or use like Shadow cloak to try to get out of there. Unless this is a way of pushing the healing morph for Shadow Cloak.

I understand them wanting to align things to make better sense, but this is a bad change and is just making the NB less relevant as a playable class outside bombing and PvE stealth stuff. Why aren't they nerfing the Sorcs huh? What's up with that. Wish they'd throw this one back or make a different change to satisfy what they're looking to accomplish here.

bladenick · August 14

Vulkunne wrote: »

You know, to my utter shame and semi-amusement it never even occurred to me that SA was being sponsored by Shadow-Ward passive. Though I did see how SA buffed health. So we're also losing that health buff as well now.

So at first I also thought this re-alignment was a good idea. But now, I'm going to have to agree with everyone else this is not a good idea and it will bring bad things. NB is weak. I don't care what anyone else says, I know some streamers hate NB for reasons and I get that, but why do this sort of thing and make the NB even more irrelevant?

Anyone tried fighting one of these Sorcs recently with your Stamblade? Its hell. There's literally like no contest. Sorcs win almost like every time in a 1v1. And don't say that Pale Order or Siphon is the big answer because its not. The way its setup now is an answer because when the NB attacks, we have something to help cover that close encounter. The way people heal and do things we don't have time to cast another shadow ability that really has nothing to do with the fight itself. No no no you cast that beforehand... not during the fight. You cast that beforehand or use like Shadow cloak to try to get out of there. Unless this is a way of pushing the healing morph for Shadow Cloak.

I understand them wanting to align things to make better sense, but this is a bad change and is just making the NB less relevant as a playable class outside bombing and PvE stealth stuff. Why aren't they nerfing the Sorcs huh? What's up with that. Wish they'd throw this one back or make a different change to satisfy what they're looking to accomplish here.

Yes, NB totally no chance kill a harden ward sorc in BG 1v1 encounter, the even worst part is, an offense build NB almost get no chance to run away if that sorc chasing you with detect pot. The NB at least need invest either on speed or resistance to survive in that god damn situation

In next version, the elemental suspension and entropy no long reveal invisible and hide, in my understanding it shall a fair trade off

Vulkunne · August 14

bladenick wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

You know, to my utter shame and semi-amusement it never even occurred to me that SA was being sponsored by Shadow-Ward passive. Though I did see how SA buffed health. So we're also losing that health buff as well now.

So at first I also thought this re-alignment was a good idea. But now, I'm going to have to agree with everyone else this is not a good idea and it will bring bad things. NB is weak. I don't care what anyone else says, I know some streamers hate NB for reasons and I get that, but why do this sort of thing and make the NB even more irrelevant?

Anyone tried fighting one of these Sorcs recently with your Stamblade? Its hell. There's literally like no contest. Sorcs win almost like every time in a 1v1. And don't say that Pale Order or Siphon is the big answer because its not. The way its setup now is an answer because when the NB attacks, we have something to help cover that close encounter. The way people heal and do things we don't have time to cast another shadow ability that really has nothing to do with the fight itself. No no no you cast that beforehand... not during the fight. You cast that beforehand or use like Shadow cloak to try to get out of there. Unless this is a way of pushing the healing morph for Shadow Cloak.

I understand them wanting to align things to make better sense, but this is a bad change and is just making the NB less relevant as a playable class outside bombing and PvE stealth stuff. Why aren't they nerfing the Sorcs huh? What's up with that. Wish they'd throw this one back or make a different change to satisfy what they're looking to accomplish here.

Yes, NB totally no chance kill a harden ward sorc in BG 1v1 encounter, the even worst part is, an offense build NB almost get no chance to run away if that sorc chasing you with detect pot. The NB at least need invest either on speed or resistance to survive in that god damn situation

In next version, the elemental suspension and entropy no long reveal invisible and hide, in my understanding it shall a fair trade off

Oh ok. Well, that's good to hear for a change. Yeah, those abilities are cancer for a class like Sorc that already is blessed with so many different things. Which honestly, I would be ok with but it's like they've lost focus on ways to make the classes more distinct and at the same time powerful but not all the same kind of power. It's like all the attention is on Sorc for some odd reason. I'll wait to PvP again until Monday lol.

LittlePinkDot · August 17

bladenick wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

You know, to my utter shame and semi-amusement it never even occurred to me that SA was being sponsored by Shadow-Ward passive. Though I did see how SA buffed health. So we're also losing that health buff as well now.

So at first I also thought this re-alignment was a good idea. But now, I'm going to have to agree with everyone else this is not a good idea and it will bring bad things. NB is weak. I don't care what anyone else says, I know some streamers hate NB for reasons and I get that, but why do this sort of thing and make the NB even more irrelevant?

Anyone tried fighting one of these Sorcs recently with your Stamblade? Its hell. There's literally like no contest. Sorcs win almost like every time in a 1v1. And don't say that Pale Order or Siphon is the big answer because its not. The way its setup now is an answer because when the NB attacks, we have something to help cover that close encounter. The way people heal and do things we don't have time to cast another shadow ability that really has nothing to do with the fight itself. No no no you cast that beforehand... not during the fight. You cast that beforehand or use like Shadow cloak to try to get out of there. Unless this is a way of pushing the healing morph for Shadow Cloak.

I understand them wanting to align things to make better sense, but this is a bad change and is just making the NB less relevant as a playable class outside bombing and PvE stealth stuff. Why aren't they nerfing the Sorcs huh? What's up with that. Wish they'd throw this one back or make a different change to satisfy what they're looking to accomplish here.

Yes, NB totally no chance kill a harden ward sorc in BG 1v1 encounter, the even worst part is, an offense build NB almost get no chance to run away if that sorc chasing you with detect pot. The NB at least need invest either on speed or resistance to survive in that god damn situation

In next version, the elemental suspension and entropy no long reveal invisible and hide, in my understanding it shall a fair trade off

Has anybody tried oblivion damage and resource poisons against a sorc yet?

bladenick · August 18

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

bladenick wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

You know, to my utter shame and semi-amusement it never even occurred to me that SA was being sponsored by Shadow-Ward passive. Though I did see how SA buffed health. So we're also losing that health buff as well now.

So at first I also thought this re-alignment was a good idea. But now, I'm going to have to agree with everyone else this is not a good idea and it will bring bad things. NB is weak. I don't care what anyone else says, I know some streamers hate NB for reasons and I get that, but why do this sort of thing and make the NB even more irrelevant?

Anyone tried fighting one of these Sorcs recently with your Stamblade? Its hell. There's literally like no contest. Sorcs win almost like every time in a 1v1. And don't say that Pale Order or Siphon is the big answer because its not. The way its setup now is an answer because when the NB attacks, we have something to help cover that close encounter. The way people heal and do things we don't have time to cast another shadow ability that really has nothing to do with the fight itself. No no no you cast that beforehand... not during the fight. You cast that beforehand or use like Shadow cloak to try to get out of there. Unless this is a way of pushing the healing morph for Shadow Cloak.

I understand them wanting to align things to make better sense, but this is a bad change and is just making the NB less relevant as a playable class outside bombing and PvE stealth stuff. Why aren't they nerfing the Sorcs huh? What's up with that. Wish they'd throw this one back or make a different change to satisfy what they're looking to accomplish here.

Yes, NB totally no chance kill a harden ward sorc in BG 1v1 encounter, the even worst part is, an offense build NB almost get no chance to run away if that sorc chasing you with detect pot. The NB at least need invest either on speed or resistance to survive in that god damn situation

In next version, the elemental suspension and entropy no long reveal invisible and hide, in my understanding it shall a fair trade off

Has anybody tried oblivion damage and resource poisons against a sorc yet?

Good point