There are too many "useless skills".

Torchwick109 · July 14

I feel like there are too many skills that need to be updated, they feel pointless and unviable because there are better options. I'll make a list of skills that I think need to be updated, just to be clear there are more but I'm having trouble recalling them all and there are still plenty of skills I haven't used so I might not know of them. If anyone can think of more please comment them.

Storm Calling -
Overload + Morphs

Destruction Staff -
Frost Clench

Soul Magic -
Soul Trap + Morphs
Soul Strike + Morphs

Assault -
Magicka Detonation + Morphs

BananaBender · July 14

Torchwick109 wrote: »

I feel like there are too many skills that need to be updated, they feel pointless and unviable because there are better options. I'll make a list of skills that I think need to be updated, just to be clear there are more but I'm having trouble recalling them all and there are still plenty of skills I haven't used so I might not know of them. If anyone can think of more please comment them.

Storm Calling -
Overload + Morphs

Destruction Staff -
Frost Clench

Soul Magic -
Soul Trap + Morphs
Soul Strike + Morphs

Assault -
Magicka Detonation + Morphs

Overload and Soul Magic I agree with, but Frost Clench specifically is the most used ranged taunt for tanks and is over all a really solid skill. The other versions of the skill on the other hand are quite a bit weaker, but I've seen some use for them.

Magicka Detonation is a good skill to have on pretty much any trash setup for dungeons or trials.

All of the weapon skill trees are pretty solid in my opinion. Of course some skills are worse and less popular than others, but I've seen almost all of them being used really effectively. If one skill line could use some love in PvE it would definitely be One-hand and Shield. Only 4 of the morphs are ever used (Pierce Armor, Heroic Slash, Defensive Stance, Power Bash), and one of them only because it's required for Vateshran S&B. All the other skills and morphs are simply bad or outperformed by other skills.

Aurielle · July 14

Torchwick109 wrote: »

I feel like there are too many skills that need to be updated, they feel pointless and unviable because there are better options. I'll make a list of skills that I think need to be updated, just to be clear there are more but I'm having trouble recalling them all and there are still plenty of skills I haven't used so I might not know of them. If anyone can think of more please comment them.

Storm Calling -
Overload + Morphs

Destruction Staff -
Frost Clench

Soul Magic -
Soul Trap + Morphs
Soul Strike + Morphs

Assault -
Magicka Detonation + Morphs

That’s a very meta PVE way of looking at things.

Overload and its morphs are used by certain Sorc PVP builds.

Frost Clench is likely still used by some frostden PVP builds paired with the Master’s staff.

I personally use Soul Trap to farm free soul gems on my overland farming build.

Proxy Detonation remains a staple in Cyro ball groups and is still used in many bomber builds.

I would argue that most (if not all) skills have a place in this game, and can be effective or useful with the right build if you don’t engage solely in PVE meta.

Yudo · July 14

Overload is heavily used, especially in PVP. It is a staple.
So is detonation for bombing in Cyro.
Clench is used by frost tanks or in combination with Master's.
While not popular even soul magic has some use.

When I think of useless skills, Mend Wound could to mind immediately.

Sluggy · July 14

The only skills I can think of off the top of my head that seem useless to me are Flying Dagger (unless you plan on pairing it for some kind of gank setup with the Vate dual wield) and that stupid spider thing from Undaunted.

Turtle_Bot · July 14

Overload is good for PvP, but it would be cool to see 1 morph made into something different so both morphs are not just the same skill twice.

What comes to mind when I think of useless skills is Lightning Splash + morphs.
- Too much of this skills damage is still tied up in the synergy that can't be used by the caster
- The DoT damage is far too low
- The skill provides zero utility outside of specifically a synergy for organized group play
- The skill has an unmentioned cast time/animation/delay that makes it very clunky and just horrible to use, even for group play where it at least has a niche use exclusively for the synergy for groups that want that additional synergy.

Compare this to something like wall of elements that has:
- Unique secondary effects based on the staff equipped
- A guaranteed burst of damage when it ends (or is recast, that also doesn't rely on an ally using a synergy that has a cooldown) allowing to be a pseudo AoE spammable
- Has a much larger area for the same cost
- Instant cast, no cast time/delay/animation (making it significantly easier and smoother to weave)

It's just not worth running lightning splash, when such alternatives exist that are not only stronger but also have more utility.

LunaFlora · July 14

those are super useful skills to many people!

Storm Calling -
Overload + Morphs:
i think it's useful for heavy attack sorcerer builds, i find it especially useful in the infinite Archive.

Destruction Staff -
Frost Clench:
tanks use this as one of their taunts.

Soul Magic -
Soul Trap + Morphs:
guaranteed way to fill empty Soul Gems.

Soul Strike + Morphs:
it's a channeled beam like Fatecarver and Radiant Oppression.
There's better ultimates, but i like it for a build with Deadly Strike.

Assault -
Magicka Detonation + Morphs:
PvP bombers use this so that's one use.

every skill gets used in some way by some people.

Foxtrot39 · July 14

LunaFlora wrote: »

every skill gets used in some way by some people.

Jaimeh · July 14

Foxtrot39 wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

every skill gets used in some way by some people.

It's useful for new NB players without good builds when soloing things.

Araneae6537 · July 14

I agree with what others have said — Frost Clench is a good taunt option and MUCH better than the old heavy attack ice staff taunt.

Alas, many of the sorcerer Storm Calling and Dark Magic abilities are sadly lacking, even useless. Dark Exchange shouldn't have a cast time to be on par with similar abilities and useful for tanks. And I would love for Mage’s Fury and Lightning Splash to be viable DPS.

fred4 · July 14

The OP doesn't merely have a PvE-centric view, I don't think they have participated in all aspects of PvE.

Frost Clench is S-tier as a ranged taunt in vTrials. For example in vSE, when it's time to taunt swap for the vampire spawn, I weakly taunt Ansuul with a chain pull, ready for another player to take over and get banished. However I then strongly taunt the vamp to come to Ansuul with Frost Clench. Frost Clench and chains are not mutual replacements. Clench is a strong taunt, has greater range, and additional effects, e.g. Maim. It is also a much better skill with a more positive animation than the Undaunted ranged taunt. The latter has a place when you don't use an ice staff (back bar), otherwise Frost Clench is way better. Indispensible when bosses teleport, such as in Asylum Sanctorium, in Cloudrest, to possibly range tank dragons in Sunspire and manage the atros, the list goes on.

Overload is a PvP skill, as others have said, and a strong one. However Overload heavy attacks are also meta, as far as I know, to kill trash with PvE heavy attack builds, especially now that the auto-AOE from lightning staff heavy attacks has been nerfed, but it has always been a viable part of such builds. Works well, for example, in vet Blackrose Prison and for trash in trials.

Magicka Detonation, both morphs, are PvP skills. They're a bit overshadowed by other options these days, e.g. spell crafting, but they still have their place. The long lead time means you can stack Proxy Det with Ulfsild's.

Soul Strike was a strong, easy play PvP option at various times in the history of the game. I still see it used occasionally and see nothing particularly wrong with it. It is in a relatively nerfed state, because it has occasionally been OP in the past.

Soul Trap has a use as a sustain skill. It also unlocks early. It's a beginner skill and something you might use to PvP at level 10 together with it's crafted buff set. Furthermore, if you want to level your character in Spellscar and, ahem, leech XP from other players, it's the earliest AOE skill that lets you tag mobs and do that. Of course it also does what it says on the tin. Fills soul gems.

fred4 · July 14

Araneae6537 wrote: »

I agree with what others have said — Frost Clench is a good taunt option and MUCH better than the old heavy attack ice staff taunt.

Alas, many of the sorcerer Storm Calling and Dark Magic abilities are sadly lacking, even useless. Dark Exchange shouldn't have a cast time to be on par with similar abilities and useful for tanks. And I would love for Mage’s Fury and Lightning Splash to be viable DPS.

If Dark Deal didn't have a cast time, it would be completely and utterly OP in both PvP and for (PvE) tanks. I remember ZOS tweaking this skill back in the day and Fengrush showing off the final version. You can move fluently while casting it, albeit it has the channel time. This is a common PvP skill in it's current form. Sorcerers, and possibly tanks, who say otherwise haven't discovered the Esoteric Greaves for one thing. It may be overshadowed by Hardened Ward at the moment, but the skill lends itself to making unique builds. I would rather Dark Exchange has the cast time and have it restore as much resources as it does, than making it a more generic skill with inevitably lower resource return to keep it balanced. Sorc's ability to trade mag for stam, or vice versa, is excellent from a build-crafting standpoint.

The current Siphoning Attacks that NB got is honestly quite OP for tanking. It's easy mode. I think NB got that, and sorc got Bound Aegis, to give those classes a way to compete with Magma Shell. That's what you need to bear in mind: Sorc already has their unique flavor tanking skill: Bound Aegis. Extremely powerful in the right hands (aka Hyperioxes). I see no reason for sorc to also facilitate easy-mode blocking.

The other two skills, mjeh. I'm not sure. Mage's Fury was infamous for kill stealing in Battlegrounds. In PvP terms it's probably balanced as it is. The delayed execute is still a very powerful idea, tempered by the 20% threshold. It struggles for bar space, but some people still use it.

Soarora · July 14

A lot more skills than you’d think have a purpose, even if you do not know the purpose. Some could certainly be buffed but I can’t think of very many who need a full rework.

Sluggy · July 14

fred4 wrote: »

..., I weakly taunt Ansuul with a chain pull, ready for another player to take over and get banished. However I then strongly taunt the vamp to come to Ansuul with Frost Clench. Frost Clench and chains are not mutual replacements. Clench is a strong taunt, has greater range, and additional effects, ...

Chain is now an actual taunt btw.

fred4 · July 15

Sluggy wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

..., I weakly taunt Ansuul with a chain pull, ready for another player to take over and get banished. However I then strongly taunt the vamp to come to Ansuul with Frost Clench. Frost Clench and chains are not mutual replacements. Clench is a strong taunt, has greater range, and additional effects, ...

Chain is now an actual taunt btw.

Indeed. But there is now a two tier taunt system. "Proper" taunts take precedence over pulls. That's what I mean when I say "I 'weakly' taunt Ansuul" by chaining. When I know someone else is supposed to take over the taunt from me, but I'm finding it hard to judge exactly when, I switch from Pierce Armor to chains to keep up taunt. That way, if I accidentally taunt the target again, while my partner is taking over, they get precedence. On the other hand, in the Ansuul fight, the other player (tank or healer) may then bring the vampire to Ansuul, for me (the main tank) to take over. However they cannot come close, or they get insta-killed. I have to range-taunt and take the vamp from them. At that point I use a proper ranged taunt, not chains, since chains may not be good enough to grab the taunt from another player. Also, for clarification, I play a lot in PUGs, thus I am describing a safe strategy.

This must be a confusing example, if you don't know the fight, although it's what the raid leader asked me to do. I didn't make it up on my own (only my rotation). Perhaps it's easier just to say that chains merely have a 15m range, whereas Frost Clench has a 28m range. I've seen tanks range tank the first dragon in vSS and you also need range to grab frost atros from across lightning areas you don't want to walk into later in that fight. Another example is Felms jumping from one end of the arena to the other in vAS+2. You want a long range taunt for keeping him under control. Then there's the tank swap in vDSR (1st boss). Like I said, the list goes on.

At any rate, running 1H+S on one bar, ice staff on the other, and using Frost Clench is common in trials. Not always necessary, but if you make just one generic (PUG) tank build, that build may well have all of the following in it:

Pierce Armor for the 9K penetration and as a source of healing with Master's 1H+S.
Unrelenting Grip (or a scribed skill) as a pull, taunt, and free ranged taunt for enemies that can't be pulled.
Frost Clench as a longer range taunt and the ranged taunt you use to reliably take over an already taunted target. Also for the Major Maim.

You can replace some of these with other generic or scribed skills, but the principle remains the same. There can well be a use for the melee taunt, ranged taunt, and a pull skill, even in a single build.

fred4 · July 15

Sluggy wrote: »

The only skills I can think of off the top of my head that seem useless to me are Flying Dagger (unless you plan on pairing it for some kind of gank setup with the Vate dual wield) and that stupid spider thing from Undaunted.

I actually tried the Vateshran dagger setup as a ranged stamina execute once. It wasn't really good enough to justify the investment, basically only for shooting fleeing people in the back. People who flee are usually no problem to kill anyway, whereas a good dueller mostly faces you. So I agree. That said, Shrouded Daggers was nice before the latest changes. I liked it for doing vMA many patches ago. Damage is nerfed now, I think. Trapping Webs, I agree.

Soarora · July 15

fred4 wrote: »

Sluggy wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

..., I weakly taunt Ansuul with a chain pull, ready for another player to take over and get banished. However I then strongly taunt the vamp to come to Ansuul with Frost Clench. Frost Clench and chains are not mutual replacements. Clench is a strong taunt, has greater range, and additional effects, ...

Chain is now an actual taunt btw.

Indeed. But there is now a two tier taunt system. "Proper" taunts take precedence over pulls. That's what I mean when I say "I 'weakly' taunt Ansuul" by chaining. When I know someone else is supposed to take over the taunt from me, but I'm finding it hard to judge exactly when, I switch from Pierce Armor to chains to keep up taunt. That way, if I accidentally taunt the target again, while my partner is taking over, they get precedence. On the other hand, in the Ansuul fight, the other player (tank or healer) may then bring the vampire to Ansuul, for me (the main tank) to take over. However they cannot come close, or they get insta-killed. I have to range-taunt and take the vamp from them. At that point I use a proper ranged taunt, not chains, since chains may not be good enough to grab the taunt from another player. Also, for clarification, I play a lot in PUGs, thus I am describing a safe strategy.

I was going to disagree, but I changed my mind, I like your wording here. Taunt on chains did wonders for division of taunts-- I like using chain as OT in trash when it's not known what adds the MT is grabbing so I don't taunt their adds.

Sluggy · July 15

fred4 wrote: »

Sluggy wrote: »

The only skills I can think of off the top of my head that seem useless to me are Flying Dagger (unless you plan on pairing it for some kind of gank setup with the Vate dual wield) and that stupid spider thing from Undaunted.

I actually tried the Vateshran dagger setup as a ranged stamina execute once. It wasn't really good enough to justify the investment, basically only for shooting fleeing people in the back. People who flee are usually no problem to kill anyway, whereas a good dueller mostly faces you. So I agree. That said, Shrouded Daggers was nice before the latest changes. I liked it for doing vMA many patches ago. Damage is nerfed now, I think. Trapping Webs, I agree.

The only time I ever saw it used was right after CP 2.0 I was getting one shotted when at 35k hp and fully buffed for a fight. Haven't seen it since then but who know what darkness lurks in the hearts of men?

Anyway, I didn't realize the chains taunt only works when not taunted. Good to know.

GrimStyx · July 15

Soul magic skills were really good, I played with them very often on a necromancer until the Oblivion foe rework, when Oblivion Foe removed the very useful sustain and damage increase for soul magic skills and replaced it with an additional debuff with DoT damage and the ultimate no longer receives a damage buff, and in previous patches they increased the cost of the soul magic ultimate and reduced the damage tick frequency, now it's a trash set, just like the skills

LunaFlora · July 15

Foxtrot39 wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

every skill gets used in some way by some people.

i believe i have used that on nightblade tanks when leveling them up. so yes it does get used

grumlins · July 15

Some of those you've listed aren't actually useless such as the detonation skill.

I'd say that they need to change the NightBlade skills back to what they used to be in many cases.

Here are a few examples of things that should never have been changed:
- refreshing path used to have a DoT + HoT
- Malevolent used to have a morph that ensnared and did bleed damage
- Cripple used to have a morph that would restore stamina

Quite a number of skills that used to be useful are now in the way and should be turned into passives such as Mark Target or Summon Shade for the sake of causing breach and extra damage or Siphoning Strikes passive giving you the ability to absorb health stamina and magicka per direct attack.

I'd also like to see an end to these extremely long DoTs that should not take so long, 20 seconds not only takes forever for the full damage affect but it also lowers the healing and DoT DPS to almost nothing basically and am I correct when I say DoTs cannot crit or am I wrong about that?

grumlins · July 15

Jaimeh wrote: »

Foxtrot39 wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

every skill gets used in some way by some people.

It's useful for new NB players without good builds when soloing things.

I'd disagree, as a lifetime nb player they could have done a better job with this ultimate than they have. It's useless considering the siphon ability heals and damages for more, so it's one of those skills you might as well not even waste your time on even as a new player there are far better options.

Araneae6537 · July 15

@fred4 thank you for your comments on my post! I confess I had abandoned Dark Deal after dying from a poorly timed cast while tanking and missed/forgot that it returned more resources than NB’s siphon (NB has some really nice tools for tanking). I should try using it again but with care.

I don’t think Mage’s Fury is on par with other execute abilities though, is it? Of course, every class doesn’t need to have an execute, but ideally every skill should be situationally useful.

That leaves Lightning Splash…

Oh, and Trapping Webs I see mention of, yes, how could I forget the ONE potential spider skill we got that instead summons HOARVORS in addition to being pretty useless.

Foxtrot39 · July 16

Jaimeh wrote: »

Foxtrot39 wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

every skill gets used in some way by some people.

It's useful for new NB players without good builds when soloing things.

Veil of blades maybe since it deals some damage but its completely eclipsed by a cheaper ult called Soul Tether that deal way more damage, stun and heal you on top alongside allies when they use the lifesteal synergy

Bolstering darkness is literally wasting 200 ult to create a 5m AOE snare, that's the extent of the benefit you get from it, major protection can just be slotted for free with flare

LunaFlora wrote: »

Foxtrot39 wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

every skill gets used in some way by some people.

i believe i have used that on nightblade tanks when leveling them up. so yes it does get used

Leveling up a skill and viability aren't mutually inclusive, only reason to use that ult is to lvl it up to see its still garbage when maxed then never use it again due to vastly superior alternative for a fraction of its cost

I have NEVER seen anyone genuinely use the skill for what it is or even has it as part of any kind of build, leveling it up is the sole reason to ever have it slotted

The only niche it can fulfill is granting major protection in cyro when everyone rush through the broken door of a castle

Its unusable anywhere else without heavy coordination via voice chat

Like using its synergy with ball groups to heal-speed boost-make invisible the whole group for 4s or as "safe retreat point" people can get in for the heal and drop aggro then use the speed to get back where they where before

Point is you get jack in benefits as the caster and it require way too much efforts or extremely specific situation to even make it niche

DrNukenstein · July 16

Foxtrot39 wrote: »

very useful for balancing the health passive across both bars, but normies don't care about that.

Foxtrot39 · July 16

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Foxtrot39 wrote: »

very useful for balancing the health passive across both bars, but normies don't care about that.

id rather have 2 usefull skill i'd use either way than waste an ult slot for only the 3% max hp passive

Beside Mirage/Blur is getting swaped with concealed weapon in the skill trees for that matter so even that use is out of the window

DrNukenstein · July 16

Foxtrot39 wrote: »

id rather have 2 usefull skill i'd use either way than waste an ult slot for only the 3% max hp passive

Beside Mirage/Blur is getting swaped with concealed weapon in the skill trees for that matter so even that use is out of the window

For me, I'd rather die than waste my ult on something not InCap so using the ult slot to protect muh even bars while slotting race against time instead of path is a good deal.

Foxtrot39 · July 16

Goes back to the point the skill being utterly worthless if the passive for slotting a shadow line skill is the only reason for you to even consider it a slotable thing

DrNukenstein · July 16

It could be worse, it could not even be good for that. Which it won't be next patch

Rkindaleft · July 21

LunaFlora wrote: »

Foxtrot39 wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

every skill gets used in some way by some people.

i believe i have used that on nightblade tanks when leveling them up. so yes it does get used

So, it's used for a very short period of time (as you level to 50) by a very small amount of Nightblade players. That doesn't mean it isn't a nearly useless ult that should get reworked.

ESO_Nightingale · July 21

Soarora wrote: »

A lot more skills than you’d think have a purpose, even if you do not know the purpose. Some could certainly be buffed but I can’t think of very many who need a full rework.

i feel like nature's grasp is almost in that category, but not quite, its just terrible.

they could condense and squish together frozen retreat and device into one skill but the baseline skill has some use for warden tanks.