An idea to eliminate people from queing up as incorrect role in dungeons

nb_rich · May 1

A simple fix will be that when people que up, your role will be whatever your main weapon(s) is.

If you have a sword and shield equip you are qued as a tank, if you have a resto staff equip you are a healer anything else you are a dps. If you change your weapon while que for a dungeon you lose your spot and have to que up again. While in the dungeon, you should be prevented from changing your main weapon(s) unless it fits your role.

The only way that people can get around this would be by equipping a resto or sword and board with dps skills if they are really a dps queing up incorrectly. Of course people will do this but highly doubt everyone will go ahead and make a gold resto staff just to be able to queue up as a healer when they are a dps lol

jaws343 · May 1

That would be awful.

There are plenty of situations where a group is struggling on an encounter and a player uses the armory, or equips a few other gear pieces or skills to mitigate issues.

Not to mention, you can tank with an ice staff. You can also equip a sword and shield and not have a taunt. It doesn't actually solve any issues. It just convolutes the whole system. What if I need to pop on the restro staff to support healing, or an ice staff to off tank for the tank who is struggling. Etc.

nb_rich · May 1

Dungeons are designed for 2 dps, 1 tank and 1 healer. If you need to drop one of those roles to support another then it just means people need to get better.

Ice staff would need to be tweaked to lean more towards being mainly a defensive weapon so that people equipping it are considered tanks. Already seems like they going this route anyways.

Sounds like you play on PC where yall have add ons and all that. I play on console so we aint got the ability to switch stuff on the fly. I have also never experienced someone completely change there role in the middle of a dungeon, probably due to playing on console. I have never seen a dps say oh well my tank needs help so ima put my tank gear on even though im a dps lol. I already mentioned in my idea you can switch loadouts as long as you stay within your role, so if your a using daggers and want to change to a greatsword you can do that just cant go from daggers to a sword and shield. If someone leaves group then maybe allow the ability to equip different weapon/switch roles

jaws343 wrote: »

That would be awful.

There are plenty of situations where a group is struggling on an encounter and a player uses the armory, or equips a few other gear pieces or skills to mitigate issues.

Not to mention, you can tank with an ice staff. You can also equip a sword and shield and not have a taunt. It doesn't actually solve any issues. It just convolutes the whole system. What if I need to pop on the restro staff to support healing, or an ice staff to off tank for the tank who is struggling. Etc.

nb_rich · May 1

I also mentioned nothing about the skills not being able to be changed, i just said your weapon should determine your role. If someone wants to be a tank with no taunt thats on them. If people want to create a sword and shield to be able to que faster as a tank and sacrifice dps, waste mats and time farming a weapon(s) they only would need when quing for a dungeon thats on them but not much people have no life like that.

Necrotech_Master · May 1

vet dungeons are designed for 2 DPS, 1 tank, and 1 healer lol

normal dungeons you can use darn near anything and still complete the dungeon (most of which can be solo'd)

once you queue into the dungeon, you cant change roles until you leave the dungeon, but you can certainly change gear, either manually, or through the armory system without the use of addons

jaws343 · May 1

nb_rich wrote: »

Dungeons are designed for 2 dps, 1 tank and 1 healer. If you need to drop one of those roles to support another then it just means people need to get better.

Ice staff would need to be tweaked to lean more towards being mainly a defensive weapon so that people equipping it are considered tanks. Already seems like they going this route anyways.

Sounds like you play on PC where yall have add ons and all that. I play on console so we aint got the ability to switch stuff on the fly. I have also never experienced someone completely change there role in the middle of a dungeon, probably due to playing on console. I have never seen a dps say oh well my tank needs help so ima put my tank gear on even though im a dps lol. I already mentioned in my idea you can switch loadouts as long as you stay within your role, so if your a using daggers and want to change to a greatsword you can do that just cant go from daggers to a sword and shield. If someone leaves group then maybe allow the ability to equip different weapon/switch roles

jaws343 wrote: »

That would be awful.

There are plenty of situations where a group is struggling on an encounter and a player uses the armory, or equips a few other gear pieces or skills to mitigate issues.

Not to mention, you can tank with an ice staff. You can also equip a sword and shield and not have a taunt. It doesn't actually solve any issues. It just convolutes the whole system. What if I need to pop on the restro staff to support healing, or an ice staff to off tank for the tank who is struggling. Etc.

I play on console, where just like on PC, the Armory exists.

"People need to get better" is an absurd take. Yes, it may be true, players can get better. But expecting that to happen in a 30 minute dungeon is not reasonable. And yeah, maybe all it takes is an extra bit of healing, or a bit of off tanking to relieve some pressure and complete the dungeon. No one should be prevented from making these types of role tweaks to complete content.

jaws343 · May 1

nb_rich wrote: »

I also mentioned nothing about the skills not being able to be changed, i just said your weapon should determine your role. If someone wants to be a tank with no taunt thats on them. If people want to create a sword and shield to be able to que faster as a tank and sacrifice dps, waste mats and time farming a weapon(s) they only would need when quing for a dungeon thats on them but not much people have no life like that.

Wait, I just saw this.

How is "that on them." You propose these arbitrary gear restrictions for roles, and then say the #1 thing the tank role needs (a taunt) is not necessary. I'm sorry, but no.

Also, per the other thread, you wonder why people kick people in dungeons. This is why. A tank showing up to a dungeon that requires a tank and that tank not having a taunt slotted is an automatic kick from group.

LunaFlora · May 1

we have multiple other ways for tanks to taunt so please goodness no!

taunts:
- Tormentor Set
- Raging Fire from Undaunted
- Ice staff Clench
- Dragonknight Chain
- Arcanist Runic Jolt
- multiple Scribing Grimoires have the Taunt and Pull Focus scripts

and for healing i do agree we need restoration staves, however having one equipped does not make them a healer.
Maybe they're a tank or a damage dealer simply leveling up their restoration staff.

nb_rich · May 1

To be honest the armory has nothing to do with this. You either didn’t read/understand what I originally said or your making it seem like there are scenarios in dungeons where you need a 2nd healer/tank.

If its a scenario where you need more healing then add vigor or a healing class ability on your bar, doesnt require you to need to equip a resto staff to add more healing. Think you might of also missed that my idea would only determine your role based on your main weapon, so if you really feel like you need extra tanking or healing you can equip those weapons on your back bar.

You did make a good point about the ice staff though where tanks do use them and from my understanding so may some warden dos that like the ice theme so something would have to be worked on for that weapon.

[/quote]

I play on console, where just like on PC, the Armory exists.

"People need to get better" is an absurd take. Yes, it may be true, players can get better. But expecting that to happen in a 30 minute dungeon is not reasonable. And yeah, maybe all it takes is an extra bit of healing, or a bit of off tanking to relieve some pressure and complete the dungeon. No one should be prevented from making these types of role tweaks to complete content.[/quote]

nb_rich · May 1

I understand there are multiple ways to taunt but I dont really consider the person a tank if they decide to run daggers over a sword and board or ice staff, same thing goes for a person using a resto staff to to do anything but be a healer lol

Right now the issue is we have the ability to que up with any set up we have and the game has no way of determining if we have selected the correct role or not and I believe this idea will limit it more and make it better then the state it currently is in.

Its also worse when your healer or tank is really a dps and deals no damage lol, especially if you que up multiple times and go through the same thing and cant complete a dungeon due to this. It just turns people away from dungeons all together

LunaFlora wrote: »

we have multiple other ways for tanks to taunt so please goodness no!

taunts:
- Tormentor Set
- Raging Fire from Undaunted
- Ice staff Clench
- Dragonknight Chain
- Arcanist Runic Jolt
- multiple Scribing Grimoires have the Taunt and Pull Focus scripts

and for healing i do agree we need restoration staves, however having one equipped does not make them a healer.
Maybe they're a tank or a damage dealer simply leveling up their restoration staff.

jaws343 · May 1

nb_rich wrote: »

To be honest the armory has nothing to do with this. You either didn’t read/understand what I originally said or your making it seem like there are scenarios in dungeons where you need a 2nd healer/tank.

If its a scenario where you need more healing then add vigor or a healing class ability on your bar, doesnt require you to need to equip a resto staff to add more healing. Think you might of also missed that my idea would only determine your role based on your main weapon, so if you really feel like you need extra tanking or healing you can equip those weapons on your back bar.

You did make a good point about the ice staff though where tanks do use them and from my understanding so may some warden dos that like the ice theme so something would have to be worked on for that weapon.

There very well could be those scenarios. Take for example:
I am in a group. Our tank leaves the group (for whatever reason). I now need a new tank. Well, My armory slot can swap to a tank, and we can bring in someone as a DPS much quicker to finish the dungeon. Or, yeah, maybe the tank is so bad and it is easier to swap to tank gear to push the dungeon along. Or, alternatively, the DPS is so bad, maybe is is better to swap to DPS gear, slot a taunt, and complete the dungeon in DPS gear.

Also, I think the distinction between "Main Bar" weapon and "Back Bar" weapon is hilariously irrelevant. The first YEAR I played the game, I had my "Main Bar" skills and weapon on my back bar, and vice versa. Because I setup it up and didn't realize I was on my "Back Bar" when I did so. Functionally, Main and Back bar are interchangeable. They are only really used as nomenclature to ascribe meaning to where players are expected to slot skills for specific builds.

In your scenario. I am a tank, I use sword and shield on my back bar and a fire staff on my front bar. But my build (skills, gear, etc) is literally the exact same as a player who uses sword and shield on their front bar and fire staff on their back bar. So functionally, the exact same. But 1 of those setups would suddenly not be a tank by this arbitrary rule.

For example These are the same build:

Front Bar: Sword and Sheild
Dragon Blood
Absorb Missile
Pierce Armor
Heroic Slash
Magma Shell

Back Bar: Fire Staff
Vigor
Blockade
Inner Rage
Unrelenting Grip
Balance
Warhorn

Front Bar: Fire Staff
Vigor
Blockade
Inner Rage
Unrelenting Grip
Balance
Warhorn

Back Bar: Sword and Shield
Dragon Blood
Absorb Missile
Pierce Armor
Heroic Slash
Magma Shell

nb_rich · May 1

Firstly I just want to tell you this is both our own opinions and mean no harm with my responses just like I take no offense to yours. Wanted to let you know cause people are sensitive these days lol and want to keep the peace.

Anyways it would be on those individuals cause they will get kicked and we can’t control how others make there builds or what role they que up as. Its unfortunate for the people in the dungeon though that already waited for ever to que up and then have to wait again since there are scenarios especially in vet dungeons where you have to have a tank and healer.

My other post was more about people kicking people from dungeons at the last boss to invite friends for either achievements or drops which is becoming a trend with the increase frustration from people having to do a lot of runs for a specific drop.

jaws343 wrote: »

nb_rich wrote: »

I also mentioned nothing about the skills not being able to be changed, i just said your weapon should determine your role. If someone wants to be a tank with no taunt thats on them. If people want to create a sword and shield to be able to que faster as a tank and sacrifice dps, waste mats and time farming a weapon(s) they only would need when quing for a dungeon thats on them but not much people have no life like that.

Wait, I just saw this.

How is "that on them." You propose these arbitrary gear restrictions for roles, and then say the #1 thing the tank role needs (a taunt) is not necessary. I'm sorry, but no.

Also, per the other thread, you wonder why people kick people in dungeons. This is why. A tank showing up to a dungeon that requires a tank and that tank not having a taunt slotted is an automatic kick from group.

LunaFlora · May 1

nb_rich wrote: »

I understand there are multiple ways to taunt but I dont really consider the person a tank if they decide to run daggers over a sword and board or ice staff, same thing goes for a person using a resto staff to to do anything but be a healer lol

Right now the issue is we have the ability to que up with any set up we have and the game has no way of determining if we have selected the correct role or not and I believe this idea will limit it more and make it better then the state it currently is in.

Its also worse when your healer or tank is really a dps and deals no damage lol, especially if you que up multiple times and go through the same thing and cant complete a dungeon due to this. It just turns people away from dungeons all together

LunaFlora wrote: »

we have multiple other ways for tanks to taunt so please goodness no!

taunts:
- Tormentor Set
- Raging Fire from Undaunted
- Ice staff Clench
- Dragonknight Chain
- Arcanist Runic Jolt
- multiple Scribing Grimoires have the Taunt and Pull Focus scripts

and for healing i do agree we need restoration staves, however having one equipped does not make them a healer.
Maybe they're a tank or a damage dealer simply leveling up their restoration staff.

i dislike damage dealers who queue as tank or healer a lot.

i also however know that with Tormentor you can use things like Two Handed or Templar charge to taunt.

if a tank has daggers on one bar and they are tanking good for them.
You can be a tank without the recommended weapons.
taunt, block, stay alive, and if you can crowd control. not things that require specific weapons even if it probably makes for a weaker tank build.

and like i said
Maybe they're a tank or a damage dealer simply leveling up their restoration staff.

which could be on their front or back bar. it doesn't matter.
Forcing a role due to weapon does not seem like a good idea.

Plus damage dealers could just put sword and shield on their front bar and their main weapon on back bar? they'd still be able to trick the system

nb_rich · May 1

I hear you. For my idea I think I mentioned somewhere that if you change your main weapon your role would change so in that scenario you can switch to your tank set up where I assume your role would automatically change to tank.

In regards to the two bars being irrelevant and how you first played the game, I agree with what your saying because I played the game my first year with a “different” set up also, but this is just a lack of any sort of good tutorial in eso.

I think when you create a character it should ask what weapon you want to start with in the character creation and give a small description of it, what roles its mainly used for and maybe some pros and cons to get new players joining eso to get more of an idea of what kind if character they are leaning to become.

jaws343 wrote: »

nb_rich wrote: »

To be honest the armory has nothing to do with this. You either didn’t read/understand what I originally said or your making it seem like there are scenarios in dungeons where you need a 2nd healer/tank.

If its a scenario where you need more healing then add vigor or a healing class ability on your bar, doesnt require you to need to equip a resto staff to add more healing. Think you might of also missed that my idea would only determine your role based on your main weapon, so if you really feel like you need extra tanking or healing you can equip those weapons on your back bar.

You did make a good point about the ice staff though where tanks do use them and from my understanding so may some warden dos that like the ice theme so something would have to be worked on for that weapon.

There very well could be those scenarios. Take for example:
I am in a group. Our tank leaves the group (for whatever reason). I now need a new tank. Well, My armory slot can swap to a tank, and we can bring in someone as a DPS much quicker to finish the dungeon. Or, yeah, maybe the tank is so bad and it is easier to swap to tank gear to push the dungeon along. Or, alternatively, the DPS is so bad, maybe is is better to swap to DPS gear, slot a taunt, and complete the dungeon in DPS gear.

Also, I think the distinction between "Main Bar" weapon and "Back Bar" weapon is hilariously irrelevant. The first YEAR I played the game, I had my "Main Bar" skills and weapon on my back bar, and vice versa. Because I setup it up and didn't realize I was on my "Back Bar" when I did so. Functionally, Main and Back bar are interchangeable. They are only really used as nomenclature to ascribe meaning to where players are expected to slot skills for specific builds.

In your scenario. I am a tank, I use sword and shield on my back bar and a fire staff on my front bar. But my build (skills, gear, etc) is literally the exact same as a player who uses sword and shield on their front bar and fire staff on their back bar. So functionally, the exact same. But 1 of those setups would suddenly not be a tank by this arbitrary rule.

For example These are the same build:

Front Bar: Sword and Sheild
Dragon Blood
Absorb Missile
Pierce Armor
Heroic Slash
Magma Shell

Back Bar: Fire Staff
Vigor
Blockade
Inner Rage
Unrelenting Grip
Balance
Warhorn

Front Bar: Fire Staff
Vigor
Blockade
Inner Rage
Unrelenting Grip
Balance
Warhorn

Back Bar: Sword and Shield
Dragon Blood
Absorb Missile
Pierce Armor
Heroic Slash
Magma Shell

Necrotech_Master · May 1

nb_rich wrote: »

I hear you. For my idea I think I mentioned somewhere that if you change your main weapon your role would change so in that scenario you can switch to your tank set up where I assume your role would automatically change to tank.

In regards to the two bars being irrelevant and how you first played the game, I agree with what your saying because I played the game my first year with a “different” set up also, but this is just a lack of any sort of good tutorial in eso.

I think when you create a character it should ask what weapon you want to start with in the character creation and give a small description of it, what roles its mainly used for and maybe some pros and cons to get new players joining eso to get more of an idea of what kind if character they are leaning to become.

jaws343 wrote: »

nb_rich wrote: »

To be honest the armory has nothing to do with this. You either didn’t read/understand what I originally said or your making it seem like there are scenarios in dungeons where you need a 2nd healer/tank.

If its a scenario where you need more healing then add vigor or a healing class ability on your bar, doesnt require you to need to equip a resto staff to add more healing. Think you might of also missed that my idea would only determine your role based on your main weapon, so if you really feel like you need extra tanking or healing you can equip those weapons on your back bar.

You did make a good point about the ice staff though where tanks do use them and from my understanding so may some warden dos that like the ice theme so something would have to be worked on for that weapon.

There very well could be those scenarios. Take for example:
I am in a group. Our tank leaves the group (for whatever reason). I now need a new tank. Well, My armory slot can swap to a tank, and we can bring in someone as a DPS much quicker to finish the dungeon. Or, yeah, maybe the tank is so bad and it is easier to swap to tank gear to push the dungeon along. Or, alternatively, the DPS is so bad, maybe is is better to swap to DPS gear, slot a taunt, and complete the dungeon in DPS gear.

Also, I think the distinction between "Main Bar" weapon and "Back Bar" weapon is hilariously irrelevant. The first YEAR I played the game, I had my "Main Bar" skills and weapon on my back bar, and vice versa. Because I setup it up and didn't realize I was on my "Back Bar" when I did so. Functionally, Main and Back bar are interchangeable. They are only really used as nomenclature to ascribe meaning to where players are expected to slot skills for specific builds.

In your scenario. I am a tank, I use sword and shield on my back bar and a fire staff on my front bar. But my build (skills, gear, etc) is literally the exact same as a player who uses sword and shield on their front bar and fire staff on their back bar. So functionally, the exact same. But 1 of those setups would suddenly not be a tank by this arbitrary rule.

For example These are the same build:

Front Bar: Sword and Sheild
Dragon Blood
Absorb Missile
Pierce Armor
Heroic Slash
Magma Shell

Back Bar: Fire Staff
Vigor
Blockade
Inner Rage
Unrelenting Grip
Balance
Warhorn

Front Bar: Fire Staff
Vigor
Blockade
Inner Rage
Unrelenting Grip
Balance
Warhorn

Back Bar: Sword and Shield
Dragon Blood
Absorb Missile
Pierce Armor
Heroic Slash
Magma Shell

this wouldnt work, since you can change what the character was meant for initially

i had a sorc that i created intending for dps but i now use as a healer after so many years

and how would it handle auto role adjusting if you have everyone in the dungeon queue in and switch to 1h/shield? theres no rule right now saying the entire team couldnt use 1h/shield even if they were dps or healers and running all class or guild skills

Soarora · May 1

LunaFlora wrote: »

we have multiple other ways for tanks to taunt so please goodness no!

taunts:
- Tormentor Set
- Raging Fire from Undaunted
- Ice staff Clench
- Dragonknight Chain
- Arcanist Runic Jolt
- multiple Scribing Grimoires have the Taunt and Pull Focus scripts

and for healing i do agree we need restoration staves, however having one equipped does not make them a healer.
Maybe they're a tank or a damage dealer simply leveling up their restoration staff.

You don’t need a restoration staff to be a healer as not all dungeons need pure healing. I have a double destro healer who uses funnel health as a spammable. That + orb, path, vigor, and healthy offering are usually enough (though pugs don’t tend to stand in path or orb…). When it’s not enough, then I bring out the restro.

LunaFlora · May 1

Soarora wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

we have multiple other ways for tanks to taunt so please goodness no!

taunts:
- Tormentor Set
- Raging Fire from Undaunted
- Ice staff Clench
- Dragonknight Chain
- Arcanist Runic Jolt
- multiple Scribing Grimoires have the Taunt and Pull Focus scripts

and for healing i do agree we need restoration staves, however having one equipped does not make them a healer.
Maybe they're a tank or a damage dealer simply leveling up their restoration staff.

You don’t need a restoration staff to be a healer as not all dungeons need pure healing. I have a double destro healer who uses funnel health as a spammable. That + orb, path, vigor, and healthy offering are usually enough (though pugs don’t tend to stand in path or orb…). When it’s not enough, then I bring out the restro.

im glad you can heal without a restoration staff! i haven't tried it yet but good to know.

i kinda thought regeneration and combat prayer were hard to do without

Soarora · May 1

LunaFlora wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

we have multiple other ways for tanks to taunt so please goodness no!

taunts:
- Tormentor Set
- Raging Fire from Undaunted
- Ice staff Clench
- Dragonknight Chain
- Arcanist Runic Jolt
- multiple Scribing Grimoires have the Taunt and Pull Focus scripts

and for healing i do agree we need restoration staves, however having one equipped does not make them a healer.
Maybe they're a tank or a damage dealer simply leveling up their restoration staff.

You don’t need a restoration staff to be a healer as not all dungeons need pure healing. I have a double destro healer who uses funnel health as a spammable. That + orb, path, vigor, and healthy offering are usually enough (though pugs don’t tend to stand in path or orb…). When it’s not enough, then I bring out the restro.

im glad you can heal without a restoration staff! i haven't tried it yet but good to know.

i kinda thought regeneration and combat prayer were hard to do without

Yeah! It feels scary but it’s not bad, funnel health basically is like spamming regeneration and healthy offering covers the lack of burst heal from combat prayer.

valenwood_vegan · May 1

If you want people who use specific weapons and skills and play a specific way at a specific ability level, this feature is fortunately already in the game. Form your own group.

One can tank without sword + shield.
One can equip sword + shield without having a taunt, and thus they would not be a tank.
One can slot a taunt but never actually activate it.
One can heal without a resto staff.
One can equip a resto staff and have no heals at all, and thus they would not be a healer.
One can slot a heal but never actually heal anyone.
One can equip a "dps weapon" and do no damage at all.

One might want to adjust their build once they see what random dungeon they've been assigned.

One might want to adjust their build if the group is struggling to complete the dungeon.

Imo forcing arbitrary restrictions would just further reduce the number of people willing to use the random finder.

WhiteCoatSyndrome · May 1

nb_rich wrote: »

A simple fix will be that when people que up, your role will be whatever your main weapon(s) is.

This is a terrible idea. My Templar wields a sword and shield because everything on that bar is a Templar ability and I liked the look of the Order of the Hour shield. I doubt I’m alone there. With this you’d get people fake tanking accidentally.

El_Borracho · May 2

I've run every dungeon in every role. Many, many times, I've had to whip out the Armory and swap my real tank or real healer for their DD alternate because the burn is horrific. So no thank you.

Sockermannen · May 7

reason why fake tanks get away so often is because even if the run is messy they are almost never kicked. They are a disruption but for most part you can still clear with them.

Give the boss a buff called something like frenzied, while this buff is active the boss has it’s damage multiplied by say 5 times. Taunt abilities have the ability to remove said buff for the duration of the taunt, bringing down the bosses damage to current levels. That way you can preasure bad fake tanks into atleast slotting taunt and grabbing the boss otherwise the boss will smear the group across the floor. It won’t fix everything but atleast the healers and DDs don’t have to deal with the boss because one player decided to be lazy.

That way if you have a bad fake tank you have a very clear cut reason as to why you fail and they can start getting kicked. I chose to attach this mechanic to a taunt because it would still enable people to fake tank with a taunt since most people who go that far are atleast somewhat competent. It would also be harder to cheat than a ”you get assigned a role based on your gear/stats” system.

In short; fake tank with taunt? it’s manageable.
Fake tank without a taunt? the boss will one or two shot the players one by one with a massive increase in damage.

MidniteOwl1913 · May 11

LunaFlora wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

we have multiple other ways for tanks to taunt so please goodness no!

taunts:
- Tormentor Set
- Raging Fire from Undaunted
- Ice staff Clench
- Dragonknight Chain
- Arcanist Runic Jolt
- multiple Scribing Grimoires have the Taunt and Pull Focus scripts

and for healing i do agree we need restoration staves, however having one equipped does not make them a healer.
Maybe they're a tank or a damage dealer simply leveling up their restoration staff.

You don’t need a restoration staff to be a healer as not all dungeons need pure healing. I have a double destro healer who uses funnel health as a spammable. That + orb, path, vigor, and healthy offering are usually enough (though pugs don’t tend to stand in path or orb…). When it’s not enough, then I bring out the restro.

im glad you can heal without a restoration staff! i haven't tried it yet but good to know.

i kinda thought regeneration and combat prayer were hard to do without

Yeah, combat prayer and regeneration are essential really. It's too bad they can't be replaced because other than those 2 skills restoration staves are kinda weak.

RR in particular is so important because it heals the party even if they are all running around like chickens missing a vital body part... ;-) instead of standing in a nice circle around the boss. Fakes tanks of course contribute to the problem by not being able to hold the boss.

BTW I only vote to kick the "tank" if they keep dying ahead of the rest of the party or are speed-running and killing bosses without the rest of the party. Oh or just standing by the next door waiting for the other 3 people to clear the room so they can continue their speed run (that one really floored me, it's a new level of rude for sure!)

Hasenpfote · May 13

There are strong healers with dual wield. Stamina healers may use bows or dual wield. The game is way too complex to say healers are only allowed to use resto staffs.

Also Restostaff has very high resource regenration and a magicka tank can make use of it aswell.

Vaqual · May 13

nb_rich wrote: »

Dungeons are designed for 2 dps, 1 tank and 1 healer.

Dungeons are designed to be beaten. The group finder role lock is just offering a scaffold that should facilitate success.

JanTanhide · May 13

We've seen quite a few suggestions on how to alleviate this issue. I just don't think anything currently suggested will ever work.

The reason is we have too many players that don't care about their actual role and only want the dungeon(s) completed. This is especially true for the Random Normals since we get ten Transmute Crystals for completing it AND many of us have quite a few characters to run through. As one player I know stated "Time is Gold".

Myself I don't speed run and I always queue for my actual role unless I'm grouped with friends and we all know it. For the Random Normal dungeon runs what I see as the worst outcome of speed runners and fake roles is we are teaching the newbies that this is "normal". So we have created more and more speed runners and fake role players over the years.

I've had quite a few new players join the guilds I'm in and when we run dungeons with guildies these new players tend to run ahead of us and speed run the dungeon. We always tell them to stop and ask them why they are not letting the Tank do their job. The response is almost always the same: "That's how it's always been in dungeon runs". Which of course is in reference to how they were introduced to dungeons in the game as they were leveling their characters.

So in my opinion this problem is much worse now than just having fake tanks, fake healers and fake DPS. It really comes down to the individual, you either stay with the group and perform your role or you don't.

Some players have even made videos justifying their speed runs and leaving the group behind. They do a great job of projecting.

sharquez · May 13

The solution is to form your group to your standard of expectations. Not to rely on random matchmaking. If you rely on random matchmaking, make sure you are self-sufficient so that you won't be dragged down by other players who are either faking their roles or incompetent.

This is the only viable solution that can be used right now and will be the only solution for the foreseeable future.

NoticeMeArkay · July 5

Why not let the system detect the correct role by checking the CP tree when queuing for veteran difficulty?
Somebody who only slots for damage won't possibly be a healer nor a tank, or am I missing something?

Kappachi · July 12

nb_rich wrote: »

A simple fix will be that when people que up, your role will be whatever your main weapon(s) is.

If you have a sword and shield equip you are qued as a tank, if you have a resto staff equip you are a healer anything else you are a dps. If you change your weapon while que for a dungeon you lose your spot and have to que up again. While in the dungeon, you should be prevented from changing your main weapon(s) unless it fits your role.

The only way that people can get around this would be by equipping a resto or sword and board with dps skills if they are really a dps queing up incorrectly. Of course people will do this but highly doubt everyone will go ahead and make a gold resto staff just to be able to queue up as a healer when they are a dps lol

...for one my heal build doesn't incorporate resto staff at ALL, spellcrafting makes hybrid heal/dps very doable in vet hm dungeons(maybe not trials, haven't tested yet), being forced to use a weaker weapon that doesn't fit my build doesn't make sense. it's a versatile role system because people can do very niche/outlandish builds and make them work perfectly fine.

Orbital78 · July 15

Tanking and healing require more attention and effort overall than dps, the devs need to make those roles more fun or easier to get into. There is a wide range of issues that cause less supports, especially tanks. Lack of respect, running ahead, making the task harder than it needs to be, inexperienced teammates is very abundant and makes things drag on, requirements for many sets expected of them (more so in vet).

AvalonRanger · July 15

"An idea to eliminate people from queueing up as incorrect role in dungeons Bookmark"

ZOS are doing good job recently for solution of those problem.

Newer group dungeon the "Bedlam Veil" has role cheater elimination mech at the first Mob
combat.

Maybe it'll not so different in the "normal" dungeon. But in Vet mode, without
decent basic 1T2DD1H style, You'll be wiped instantly even with toughest real tank team mate.

"Tank take dangerous foe and protect team, 2DD kill "beam buy" and "dangerous shooter" immediately,
And healer must support all team with good healing with something damage shield or damage buff. "

Very basic 4 men style combat, but if one of them is fake style then you'll be wiped. Or fair role player
leave from team immediately. I think it's good game mechanics.

But, still not perfect also. Because ZOS reject to remove "quick leaving penalty".