Is the new scrybing skills gonna stay p2w?

Skander · June 23

Genuine question, are they gonna hit for players without the chapter, or they gonna stay behind pay-gate?

Moothos · June 23

can we please stop calling new content that the developers should be paid for "p2w"

LunaFlora · June 23

it isn't pay to win.
it is a chapter feature

Araneae6537 · June 23

Exactly, it’s amazing how many people have no idea what the term “pay to win” legitimately refers to and just use it to mean they should get everything for free.

You can buy the chapter, probably on sale on several months, or if you have ESO+, you’ll get access included next year. The game costs money just to run, not to mention create new content. If you don’t pay for it in any way, there’s no reason why you should have access.

valenwood_vegan · June 23

You think scribing is bad? I had to buy an entire PC to be able to play eso. Talk about pay to win.

kurbbie_s · June 23

i dont think many of you are understanding the concept. The same thing was said when people didnt have access to the warden classes other than buying the expansion, same thing with jewelry crafting. Now that isnt the case because you cannot unlock the means to use it period unless you pay for the expansion. This is a completely new system that is overtuned and very powerful.

Hes right, it is pay to win, if it wasnt, scribing would be available to the masses in some way. Be it a scribing table you can put in your guild hall, or buying the ability with crowns, etc.

kurbbie_s · June 23

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Exactly, it’s amazing how many people have no idea what the term “pay to win” legitimately refers to and just use it to mean they should get everything for free. You can buy the chapter, probably on sale on several months, or if you have ESO+, you’ll get access included next year. The game costs money just to run, not to mention create new content. If you don’t pay for it in any way, there’s no reason why you should have access.

i dont think you understand what the term actually refers to.

pay to win means involving or relating to the practice of paying to get weapons, abilities, etc. that give you an advantage over players who do not spend money.

Abilities meaning the key word here.

Araneae6537 · June 23

kurbbie_s wrote: »

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Exactly, it’s amazing how many people have no idea what the term “pay to win” legitimately refers to and just use it to mean they should get everything for free. You can buy the chapter, probably on sale on several months, or if you have ESO+, you’ll get access included next year. The game costs money just to run, not to mention create new content. If you don’t pay for it in any way, there’s no reason why you should have access.

i dont think you understand what the term actually refers to.

pay to win means involving or relating to the practice of paying to get weapons, abilities, etc. that give you an advantage over players who do not spend money.

Abilities meaning the key word here.

That’s different from features in a chapter. I’ve not seen any game that doesn’t include new features with chapters/expansions. The worst increase the level cap. GW2 introduced different ways of moving about the game in their first two expansions. P2W would be like some OP mythic Sword of Slaying in the Crown store.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · June 24

A lot of things can be categorized as p2w. The key debate is the 'extent' of the p2w.

For example pay for speed / progress can be consider p2w to a degree due to the advantage of reaching certain things sooner however a lot of players will generally consider this an acceptable/very minor level of p2w (assuming the 'slow' free method is not too egregious)

Similarly new skills/gear/classes locked behind DLC / Chapter paywalls can also be considered p2w because you cannot access those 'good items/skills/classes' without 'paying' to access them and therefor there is a 'pay to win' element.

Personally I dislike it when ZOS lock skills and gear behind DLC/Chapters because it essentially forces you to pay them to keep up with current meta's but at the same time its basically part of the games progression structure, a model followed by other games (level increases in other MMOs expansions etc can be considered as this too, but most generally accept that it's a basic form of progression).

The worst issue would be if there was a 'the more you pay the more you win' element as this is the worst level of p2w, ESO hasn't really gone there yet.

Gray_howling_parrot · June 24

Scribing is not pay to win. If scribing is pay to win, then essentially every live service game that has updates is pay to win.

If you want to see pay to win, go take a look at games like Lost Ark, Diablo Immortal (western exception here), Genshin Impact and other eastern-based MMOs

Firstmep · June 24

kurbbie_s wrote: »

i dont think many of you are understanding the concept. The same thing was said when people didnt have access to the warden classes other than buying the expansion, same thing with jewelry crafting. Now that isnt the case because you cannot unlock the means to use it period unless you pay for the expansion. This is a completely new system that is overtuned and very powerful.

Hes right, it is pay to win, if it wasnt, scribing would be available to the masses in some way. Be it a scribing table you can put in your guild hall, or buying the ability with crowns, etc.

In wow you cant even get to max level unless you have the latest expansion.
Scribing is NOT p2w, sorry.

VinnyGambini · June 24

Firstmep wrote: »

kurbbie_s wrote: »

i dont think many of you are understanding the concept. The same thing was said when people didnt have access to the warden classes other than buying the expansion, same thing with jewelry crafting. Now that isnt the case because you cannot unlock the means to use it period unless you pay for the expansion. This is a completely new system that is overtuned and very powerful.

Hes right, it is pay to win, if it wasnt, scribing would be available to the masses in some way. Be it a scribing table you can put in your guild hall, or buying the ability with crowns, etc.

In wow you cant even get to max level unless you have the latest expansion.
Scribing is NOT p2w, sorry.

In League of Legends you pay only for skins, visuals etc, and this buisness model runs perfectly fine.

I'm not buying statement, that you need to pay, because game cost money just to run. There are free mmo games that run with above buisness model with success.

Clear pay2win for me.

divnyi · June 24

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

kurbbie_s wrote: »

i dont think many of you are understanding the concept. The same thing was said when people didnt have access to the warden classes other than buying the expansion, same thing with jewelry crafting. Now that isnt the case because you cannot unlock the means to use it period unless you pay for the expansion. This is a completely new system that is overtuned and very powerful.

Hes right, it is pay to win, if it wasnt, scribing would be available to the masses in some way. Be it a scribing table you can put in your guild hall, or buying the ability with crowns, etc.

In wow you cant even get to max level unless you have the latest expansion.
Scribing is NOT p2w, sorry.

In League of Legends you pay only for skins, visuals etc, and this buisness model runs perfectly fine.

I'm not buying statement, that you need to pay, because game cost money just to run. There are free mmo games that run with above buisness model with success.

Clear pay2win for me.

League of Legends is not an MMO.

Vynera · June 24

I've got the new expansion, please name me one scribing skill that will guarantee me a "win" vs a player that does not have access to them, even if the other player is better at pvp than me.

I've played a "p2w" mmo before eso, where you could throw in a few thousand bucks and get an armorset + weapon that would basically oneshot everyone without that armor and reduced incoming damage by ~90% from free to play players. That is p2w.

Turtle_Bot · June 24

The closest thing this game has ever had that could be considered "pay-to-win" was the original oakensoul and malacath mythics. Those 2 mythics were so overpowered on release that it was impossible to compete (especially in PvP) without them.

Scribing is nowhere near that level of power. It's a fun system that provides the ability to add a few niche options to builds for those who want to try other things (many of which are still not in the system yet), but none of the current skill combinations are strong enough to be mandatory to compete in ESO.

The ONLY way scribing would have been even remotely close to being pay to win is if ZOS hadn't balanced the oblivion damage affixes for wield soul and soul burst and added the ramping cost to Vault during the PTS cycle, but those skills did get balanced, so they are not stronger than existing options.

Would it be nice if scribing was part of the base game? Sure, but then why would people bother to buy the new chapter when they already have the shiny new fun feature already unlocked?

xylena_lazarow · June 24

divnyi wrote: »

MMO

You mean the obsolete game model that substitutes braindead grinding for actual content? ESO is a theme park, and the PvP ride has nothing to do with flower picking. It should be treated like any other competitive PvP game. I would infinitely prefer paying for gear like you would an IRL sports team, over wasting my time on braindead garbage for hours just to unlock what I paid $40 for. PvP is already its own content, we don't need braindead grind to get us playing.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

The closest thing this game has ever had that could be considered "pay-to-win" was the original oakensoul and malacath

This I can agree with, those gave you a huge advantage in PvP at the time. Scribing is nowhere near that. There's a few skills that are really good on a few builds, but zero specs for which Scribing is mandatory.

divnyi · June 24

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

You mean the obsolete game model that substitutes braindead grinding for actual content?

Yes.

ESO is first and foremost an MMO, and then it's a theme park of things.
ESO PvP is a small park in the grand scheme of infinite grinding. One of the possible endgame activities.
And one that have seen the most neglect, otherwise it would have new content.
But why would they, ranked ESO PvP is a card game.

It is incorrect to percieve ESO PvP outside of ESO grind ecosystem.
Because it's just not a thing.
You don't install the game and play same ESO PvP we, 160cp players play.
And main cyro campaigns are CP so you need to grind even longer to be a part of it.

Comparing this game to any MOBA is just incorrect on many levels.

This is also a reason why PvP population is more or less stale and will not rapidly grow.

xylena_lazarow · June 24

divnyi wrote: »

Comparing this game to any MOBA is just incorrect on many levels. This is also a reason why PvP population is more or less stale and will not rapidly grow.

ESO PvP has more in common with League than it does with its own casual PvE. It should be treated as a PvP game, not casual MMO content where you pick flowers and talk to robots in between waiting for time gates. Obsolete MMO grind walls players from engaging in the PvP due to the time it takes to grind arena weapons, Hakeijos, gold mats, etc. Obsolete MMO grind is inherently incompatible with competitive gaming, because it's purely time wasted spent, not skill.

divnyi · June 24

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Obsolete MMO grind is inherently incompatible with competitive gaming, because it's purely time wasted spent, not skill.

What makes you think that they are moving in this direction?
Everything they've done so far tells us they want PvP to be fun and casual, not competitive sport.

xylena_lazarow · June 24

divnyi wrote: »

Everything they've done so far tells us they want PvP to be fun and casual, not competitive sport

Is that why they've been pushing the organized ball group meta for a decade?

divnyi · June 24

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

Everything they've done so far tells us they want PvP to be fun and casual, not competitive sport

Is that why they've been pushing the organized ball group meta for a decade?

They didn't. They are just too incompetent to fix it, so they've stopped trying.

Hasenpfote · June 24

The last 10 years, characters were fine without scribing skills. Now, 10 years later since release, characters are still fine without scribing skills. Scribing skills only opens the door to a wider varity of playstyle. So for example a sorc can get a magicka based grab while a stamina based grab still exists. Since you are still limited to 2x 5/1 skills, you have to drop another skill, if you want a scribing skill.

VinnyGambini · June 24

Ok, so scribing skills are not OP, I'm not the one to judge.

But I still do not understand why you excuse buisness model that forces you to pay for trying new playstyle and compete n PvP.

Seriously, there are other buisness models, where you pay for new storyline, visuals, houses etc.

Joy_Division · June 24

divnyi wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Obsolete MMO grind is inherently incompatible with competitive gaming, because it's purely time wasted spent, not skill.

What makes you think that they are moving in this direction?
Everything they've done so far tells us they want PvP to be fun and casual, not competitive sport.

Fun? No.

Casual? No. If a "casual" player shows up on the default zerg server, they will get destroyed in less than two seconds by any of the regulars (who are the only ones who will wait in a hour and half que, which is the most anti-casual thing about PvP). There is absolutely nothing a casual or below-average player can do at all on their own to help their alliance. All they can do is wait with their maps open at a keep or follow the Zerg, where they will either get farmed mercilessly in towers or by ball groups, assuming they even can survive sitting at their trebuchets (which they often don't). Cyrodiil is about as anti-casual a format as it gets, which is why I see the exact same people playing night after night after night.

The direction ZOS moved to is autopilot.

xylena_lazarow · June 24

Joy_Division wrote: »

There is absolutely nothing a casual or below-average player can do at all on their own to help their alliance.

Yeah it's rough but it's not that bleak. We get plenty of new players on meatbags on the walls, learning where to put oils on the inner, running basic tank sustain heal spam builds, fixing walls, sitting on back keeps calling out PvDoor, etc... it's sad that Scribing is gated behind not just a paywall but also dozens of hours of soul crushing grind tedium, because skills like Repelling Explosion are awesome for casual players to use in zerg fights.

Kartalin · June 24

divnyi wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

Everything they've done so far tells us they want PvP to be fun and casual, not competitive sport

Is that why they've been pushing the organized ball group meta for a decade?

They didn't. They are just too incompetent to fix it, so they've stopped trying.

They did adjust Rush of Agony, but as usual they accidentally improved it for ball group play. The scribed pull is kind of meh but it changes the mechanics a bit so with practice it might be decent as opposed to a 5 piece set.

TDVM · June 24

Is the new scrybing skills gonna stay p2w? - no

Lazarus_Rising · June 24

Its funny that people argue endlessly about what is P2W and there are always the same arguments on both sides.
Always the same pattern. Thread says P2W and then its all about what is the definition of P2W and everyone has a different viewpoint. No one gets tired of repeating the same stuff over and over?

Back to topic:
Some scribing skill are good, some complement classes but i did not see anything which would be OP. I dont know if meta build already use scribing skills now but all the old builds are still completelly viable since nothing really changed compared to before.

taugrim · June 24

I haven't found any of the scribing skills to be OP in PVP.

I do think that Shattering Knife (Traveling Knife w/ Multi-Target Focus) is quite good as a spammable, especially when paired with Warrior's Opportunity and Minor Vuln for builds with multiple sources of martial damage. But the skill cost keeps it from being imbalanced - it's hard to sustain.

Even with Scribing in the game, I'm using non-Scribing skills 100% on my Stamcro and Stamplar.

I like the Scribing system, it provides options for flexibility. But it is most definitely not p2w.