Hermaeus Mora, Apocrypha and the Dreamer

jaekobcaed · May 3

Disclaimer: I haven't played Necrom yet (planning to try to finish it before Gold Road), I've only played the Necrom and Gold Road prologues so far, so please forgive me if this is addressed in Necrom. These are my own musings based off of possibly outdated information.

Hermaeus Mora allegedly knows everything. It's obvious he knows a lot. He even knows possible events in different timelines, similar to the elder scrolls themselves, which no other entity in TES lore seems to be capable of knowing. However, if he knows everything, that implies he'd have to know about the Dream, and thus CHIM, Amaranth and the Godhead as well... but this contradicts existing lore on those subjects, doesn't it? When someone understands the existence of the Dream, they'd have to either zero-sum or achieve CHIM. Furthermore, if one understands CHIM, they're on the path to understanding Amaranth. Considering Hermaeus Mora's desire to simply know, and not to directly interfere with fate (which we'll undoubtedly learn more about when we learn more of Ithelia), I'd imagine he'd want to mantle the Godhead himself as that'd be the most surefire way for him to achieve that goal, yet he remains conscious unlike the Dreamer.

So, does he know about these things? If not, is he merely exaggerating or is he lying about his own nature? If he's exaggerating, that implies ego is most important to him (even over knowledge itself) but if he's lying about his own nature, that means he's keeping a secret that could eventually be exposed by anyone who achieves CHIM, so that leads me to believe he is neither lying nor exaggerating... so obviously, he has to have quietly achieved CHIM himself, right? But that makes me wonder, how is that possible? The Dwemer were unbelievably smart but their knowledge led them to zero-sum because they couldn't reconcile the nature of reality with what they already knew. I'd imagine it'd be even more impossible for Hermaeus Mora to achieve CHIM for this very reason.

Or, I might be getting unhinged a bit here, but...

Maybe Hermaeus Mora is a semi-lucid, albeit ironically unwitting manifestation of the consciousness of the Dreamer and Apocrypha is not a realm of Oblivion, but rather, a depiction of the Dreamer's knowledge. Thoughts manifested in orderly ways, like a mental library, not the poetic Aurbis. After all, a painting is simply the artist's thoughts and emotions put to the canvas. This would explain the intrinsic connection to Nirn that is mentioned when Mora requests the Vestige's aid in saving Apocrypha: as brain damage impacts one's imagination and creativity, damage to Apocrypha -- the analytical "brain" of the Aurbis -- will directly corrupt the work of art which is Mundus.

This also explains why he manifests in such a strange way compared to the other Princes. What if he is not a mass of tentacles, but rather, a dream-state image of a neuron? Subconsciously, the Dreamer has imagined their mind but, to a fantasy society without the ability to evaluate a brain at a microscopic level, Mora looks like a Lovecraftian tentacled horror. Furthermore, we know that Mora had a role in locking Ithelia away and causing most of existence to forget her.

Ithelia is the Prime Archon, the eldest of the Magna Ge. The Nine Coruscations tells us that the second-eldest is Mnemo-li (memory). There is always a "Prisoner Unbound", game heroes, who are also associated with Ithelia's sphere of influence and those heroes change the course of the Dream (with one mantling madness itself, and another effectively mantling Shor). Mora locked Ithelia up because she had the potential to destroy the Dream by making everyone understand. Nu-Mantia or Numancia (loving the alternate spelling). The Dreamer is in a coma and wants to stay asleep, therefore their semi-lucid mind is attempting to preserve the status quo by preventing any aspect of the dream from Amaranth.

This also somewhat goes hand-in-hand with my personal belief that Lorkhan himself was the direct and fully lucid avatar of the Godhead and that, by tricking the et'Ada (figments of the Godhead's imagination) into creating Mundus, the Godhead betrayed their own mind causing a descent into madness: when the Aedra killed Lorkhan, the Godhead's mind broke and they became a Dreamer in a comatose state. The Godhead wanted to wake up by showing everyone the mystery of the Tower. Their descent into comatose madness created Sheogorath, led to Mora's protection of the Dream and all along, the Shezzarines have simply been the Dreamer's last vestige of hope trying to wake from their mad dream. That theory probably isn't true, and like I said, it's just my own speculation but I feel like it relates here.

At the end of the day, that's all just my own speculation. I could very possibly be way off the mark. However, I think we can definitely agree that The Nine Coruscations might just be the heaviest lore drop we've had since MK was still working at Bethesda. The implications of Ithelia, her motivations and what that book tells us about her, it's massive. It changes the way we view virtually every bit of the Dawn Era and TES metaphysics as a whole. As Kirkbride fan and a lover of TES metaphysics, Dawn Era lore, the Ayleids and their understanding of magic, Gold Road is shaping up to have some of my favorite lore in the franchise!

jaekobcaed · May 3

Addendum: We can also note that The Nine Coruscations makes repeated mentions of Love, something that was central to MK's Loveletter from the Fifth Era, The True Purpose of Tamriel, love being the key to preventing Landfall, the event that unleashes the Numidium from the dragon break it's trapped in, thereby rendering Nirn unlivable and forcing the remnants of its population to live on Nirn's moons (Lorkhan's dead body). I know it's not technically canon but a lot of what they seem to be doing with the Ithelia plot arc is very much in line with MK's writing philosophies.

It leads me to believe that the Dreamer is in a comatose state of madness and self-loathing. Ithelia and the Shezzarines are their subsconscious hopes attempting to wake them up from this Dream. Only when the Dreamer reconciles Love in their own mind will they wake, but the mind is just as powerful an enemy as it is an ally. If my speculations happen to be true, Hermaeus Mora is quite literally the one keeping the Dream alive. He is ironically the ally to all who exist in the Aurbis, while simultaneously being the greatest enemy of the Godhead.

Soarora · May 3

Interesting discussion. I do wholly agree Ithelia bares strong resemblance to the Magna Ge. Unfortunately, Gold Road doesn’t explain any of this. Would’ve been great if they did, with the whole Meridia being important to ESO thing…
But anyways, between the Fate sphere and the glass shards we got as hints for Gold Road (people said the center bit looked like Meridia but blue), it’d make a lot of sense. Though, I thought she seemed more similar to Mnemoli, but I can’t say I know all that much about the Magna Ge.

Edit: I found in another thread someone linked the lorebook you referred to (I didn’t notice you linked it the first time, oops). I’m inclined to agree with you that she seems to be the Prime Archeon.

As for Hermaeus and CHIM… it’d make sense if he’s achieved it, after all, didn’t Molag Bal teach Vehk of CHIM? Have all the Princes CHIMmed…? Hmm…
Hermaeus seems the type to know better than to mantle the Godhead as doing so could de-stabilize reality. It’s also probably a much tougher job. If Molag Bal knows of the Godhead though, and HE hasn’t tried to mantle the Godhead, then it could also just be true that some part of their nature keeps them from trying.

The Princes do get to have some pretty weird origin stories. Would be cool if Hermaeus is another agent of the Godhead as you wrote about. Though, I guess everyone’s an agent of the Godhead since they’re all in the Dream. Haha.

jaekobcaed · May 4

It's a bummer to hear Gold Road doesn't address this. If you can say this without spoiling the story, do you think they will continue Ithelia's story long-term, as in, beyond the zone DLC later in the year?

And yeah, as for The Nine Coruscations, I really do think that's the biggest and most profound lore drop we've had since Morrowind (the game, not the chapter). The implications of these particular Magna Ge and their relation to Nirn and the other et'Ada, it just seems to be taking TES lore in a bold new direction without ruining what has already come before.

As for the other Princes and CHIM, I totally forgot that Molag Bal was the one that taught Vehk. That does make one wonder if they reached CHIM but the thing is, they really act as if they don't look beyond their current existence. The only one that seems to do that, at least pre-Gold Road, is Mora which is what makes me think he's particularly unique among the Princes. Even if I'm off on the whole "semi-lucid mind of the Dreamer" thing, there's clearly something different about him that I can't seem to grasp.

Perhaps, if all the princes do know of CHIM, Amaranth and the Walking Ways, they're held back from mantling the Godhead because their egos are too strong for loving self-sacrifice? That seems to be the core of what makes Amaranth happen. That's why I reference the Nu-Mantia Intercept and my addendum references Jubal's Loveletter; Jubal claims the only way to stop Landfall is Love, and that's why I wonder if the entire reason the Godhead is dreaming is because their mind is in a spiral of madness and self-loathing. It really would explain why Ithelia, the Shezzarines and a few other figures seem to be so staunchly contrasted against the majority of divine beings in TES lore. If the Princes know of the Godhead, perhaps they're the portions of said Godhead's mind that contribute to the self-hatred and, like I said, Ithelia and the Shezzarines represent hope and love in the Dreamer's mind.

Again, I could be way off, here. I wrote the initial post when I was high from lack of sleep, and my mind tends to get wacky when I haven't had enough sleep haha

Soarora · May 4

jaekobcaed wrote: »

It's a bummer to hear Gold Road doesn't address this. If you can say this without spoiling the story, do you think they will continue Ithelia's story long-term, as in, beyond the zone DLC later in the year?

And yeah, as for The Nine Coruscations, I really do think that's the biggest and most profound lore drop we've had since Morrowind (the game, not the chapter). The implications of these particular Magna Ge and their relation to Nirn and the other et'Ada, it just seems to be taking TES lore in a bold new direction without ruining what has already come before.

As for the other Princes and CHIM, I totally forgot that Molag Bal was the one that taught Vehk. That does make one wonder if they reached CHIM but the thing is, they really act as if they don't look beyond their current existence. The only one that seems to do that, at least pre-Gold Road, is Mora which is what makes me think he's particularly unique among the Princes. Even if I'm off on the whole "semi-lucid mind of the Dreamer" thing, there's clearly something different about him that I can't seem to grasp.

Perhaps, if all the princes do know of CHIM, Amaranth and the Walking Ways, they're held back from mantling the Godhead because their egos are too strong for loving self-sacrifice? That seems to be the core of what makes Amaranth happen. That's why I reference the Nu-Mantia Intercept and my addendum references Jubal's Loveletter; Jubal claims the only way to stop Landfall is Love, and that's why I wonder if the entire reason the Godhead is dreaming is because their mind is in a spiral of madness and self-loathing. It really would explain why Ithelia, the Shezzarines and a few other figures seem to be so staunchly contrasted against the majority of divine beings in TES lore. If the Princes know of the Godhead, perhaps they're the portions of said Godhead's mind that contribute to the self-hatred and, like I said, Ithelia and the Shezzarines represent hope and love in the Dreamer's mind.

Again, I could be way off, here. I wrote the initial post when I was high from lack of sleep, and my mind tends to get wacky when I haven't had enough sleep haha

I don't think Ithelia's story will be continuing. ZOS did what some said they were going to; they just made the story DLC from year-long stories into a Chapter. It's not a story arc like we were promised, just a year-long story split into two Chapters. So, the play how you want mantra will likely lead us into somewhere new next year. We aren't getting a story DLC this year either to my knowledge. I don't think I can say anything more without spoilers.

I'm surprised to see such positivity towards the book. I thought the lore from Gold Road was incredibly lacking, but evidently, I was looking in the wrong places.

It is true that no Prince seems to comment directly on their nature like Hermaeus does, but honestly it may just be because he knows too much. I certainly understand how that feels haha... introspection in the search of knowledge can make one painfully self-aware.

Speaking of the nature of Princes, it could be that their Nature is holding them back. Maybe it isn't really, but it's a self-fulfilling prophecy that none of them think they can change as people. If they can't change, then they can't become the Godhead, for then they would not be themselves, even though it would give them the ultimate power to fulfill their Nature. That said, I didn't even know it was possible to mantle the Godhead before this conversation so I can't say this is my expertise. I do not know the source material you are referring to as I do not read Kirkbride's works but I like your line of thought about love and hate. It'd finally give an answer to my question as to why the Godhead would be asleep so deeply in the first place. We don't know how long they've been asleep, but this amount of depth of a Dream is something I have not really heard of except maybe in comas or maladaptive daydreaming.

That said, I've considered the Godhead to be both a metaphysical being that exists in TES lore but also a metaphor for the spirit of Elder Scrolls-- the people who create and engage in it (or just Bethesda themselves). The Dream would end should a character act out of line or mantle the Godhead for the Dream would make no sense... to us, we would destroy it, for fear of what we have created--a sentient game character. In this interpretation, it wouldn't make sense that the Godhead hates itself, but it would connect to the idea of love for we do love this franchise and the only way to keep it alive is to continue doing so.

The best lore ideas come from wacky sleep!

Soarora · May 4

Soarora wrote: »

That said, I've considered the Godhead to be both a metaphysical being that exists in TES lore but also a metaphor for the spirit of Elder Scrolls-- the people who create and engage in it (or just Bethesda themselves). The Dream would end should a character act out of line or mantle the Godhead for the Dream would make no sense... to us, we would destroy it, for fear of what we have created--a sentient game character. In this interpretation, it wouldn't make sense that the Godhead hates itself, but it would connect to the idea of love for we do love this franchise and the only way to keep it alive is to continue doing so.

Talked with a friend about this and it even seems likely that we as individuals are each Godheads. I had forgotten about The Tower being in the shape of "I". Ithelia's Paths may just be Paths to other individual's TES universes where all our headcanons are realized. Crazy.

jaekobcaed · May 5

Man, that really sucks to hear. They really had the potential to do something huge with the lore, and with future chapters, had they continued her story and made the focus of the next few chapters being about exploring the deeper, more metaphysical side of TES lore. What's done is done, I guess. I'm still planning to buy it, as I love Cyrodiil and lore regarding Daedra and the Ayleids always piques my interest.

Hmm when it comes to the Princes and their nature, that's where my question arises, though. If Mora does know all, or at least knows "too much" as you aptly put it, then he'd have to know and understand the Godhead and the Dream, wouldn't he? And if that's the case, he'd undoubtedly have to at least have achieved CHIM and, as you said, obviously Molag Bal knew the secret as well. And yeah, regarding mantling the Godhead, we don't know much, we just know that Amaranth is a real thing and if you dive into MK's apocryphal works, there's a little bit more information to work with despite technically not being canon.

In terms of how long the Dreamer has slept, it probably comes down to a perception of time. They say that when we dream, even our longest dreams actually occur in a matter of seconds in real-time, but they seem to go on for hours sometimes. As such, who knows, perhaps the Godhead started dreaming yesterday, and the millennia of time throughout the eras has occurred since then? However, we also don't know if the kalpic cycle requires someone new to mantle the Godhead or not. If not, that means there could have been limitless other kalpas before the current one, so that would make it impossible to guess.

I agree entirely, I think the Godhead is more than just a metaphysical concept, but also the embodiment of the spirit of TES. After all, the entire purpose of C0DA was to encourage the reader to understand that ultimately, there is no firm canon, everyone determines their own canon. This goes perfectly with Bethesda's modding philosophy, as well, since it gives us an in-lore reason for mods, everything from the Thomas the Tank Engine dragons to the most lovingly-crafted lore-friendly quest mods. It's what makes this franchise so special and so awesome to play around in!

PrayingSeraph · May 8

This thread has been an interesting read. Im very firmly in the post-Bethesda MK works being non canon camp and I reject MK's theme that there isnt a canon(although I do believe certain specific elements such as player name, race, class etc being player determined) but it is interesting to read MK's works and threads inspired by it.

jaekobcaed · May 8

Yes, I agree that there should be a canon, but I like the philosophy of canonizing mods. It could be one of those lore contradictions that can be viewed as both accurate and inaccurate the same time, akin to the way a dragon break allows multiple contradictory events to have happened yet not happen.

I'm just old school with TES lore haha. I used to discuss on Bethesda's forums (pre-BethesdaNet) about TES lore for hours when I was a teenager, I miss those days. This board is just about the closest I can get to that experience, it's just a shame there aren't more people posting here.

PrayingSeraph · May 8

There's nothing wrong with being old school with TES lore. Although I do reject post Bethesda MK writings as canon(though I dont see many claiming them to be firm canon these days), I do respect the man for contributing greatly to TES lore.

And I really appreciate the thoughtfulness you have displayed in this thread

jaekobcaed · May 10

Yeah, I'm not some sort of loyalist that insists everyone views his work as hard canon (or not-canon, I guess haha), so no worries there! Thanks for the compliment!

MerguezMan · June 8

Guys, you keep repeating "CHIM" without defining it clearly, and that is the first mistake.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:CHIM#cite_note-MOTPE-7

From what I understand, this is a daedric word to describe a state of mind allowing mortals to transcend their condition.

Anyone can understand what meditation and the concept of "illumination of mind" is, but simply understanding and knowing about it does not allow you to achieve it and actually reach such state ; it requires practice. Simply understanding what CHIM is does not make one reach such state, but is the first step to allow you to do so. And it also probably requires a lot of magic energy.

Vivec wrote and said a lot of things, which are only partially true. He rewrote his own history for his folks to believe he has always been a kind of god, and is often considered by other entities as "false god". And TES3 proved he is mortal. I would not consider Vivec's teachings as 100% true, accurate and exhaustive.

As for Daedric princes, they are already able to create their own planes, and not mortal. The original schism between Aedras and Daedras is their way to anchor their reality. Aedras have focused on Mundus to anchor a plane of existence they could live in, while daedric princes have each tried to mantle on their own, but have only created their own oblivion plane still within the Godhead-dream. To actually mantle the Godhead, you should be out and beyond of the Godhead-dream first.

As I understand it, from Daedra perspective, "CHIM" is the transition to mortal state which was used to anchor Mundus, and/or the transition to daedric prince state which was used to create oblivion planes.

In the case of Hermaeus Mora, he is said to collect everything known within Mundus ("the shadow of mortal knowledge" - or something like that ?). So he knows about the attempts to transcend existence, but cannot confirm the results. Assuming someone does transcend his existence beyond the Godhead-dream, he would disappear from it, "out of radars" ; so from inside the Godhead-dream, you cannot tell if he did actually transcend or was just destroyed in the process (similar to Dwemer's plane-transition, on a different scale).

I doubt Mora would ever try to mantle the Godhead-dream, as this would imply to abandon everything he is and everything he knows in the process, for a totally unknown outcome.

My interpretation is that Ithelia rewrites reality around her, as if time was not linear, creating inconcistencies in Mundus history and causality of events. Mora is heavily impacted, as his collected history and secrets are worth nothing if they can be rewritten every now and then by Ithelia. Other princes are also impacted, as Ithelia has the potential to "undo" any outcome of their plots.

Soarora · June 9

MerguezMan wrote: »

Guys, you keep repeating "CHIM" without defining it clearly, and that is the first mistake.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:CHIM#cite_note-MOTPE-7

From what I understand, this is a daedric word to describe a state of mind allowing mortals to transcend their condition.

Anyone can understand what meditation and the concept of "illumination of mind" is, but simply understanding and knowing about it does not allow you to achieve it and actually reach such state ; it requires practice. Simply understanding what CHIM is does not make one reach such state, but is the first step to allow you to do so. And it also probably requires a lot of magic energy.

Vivec wrote and said a lot of things, which are only partially true. He rewrote his own history for his folks to believe he has always been a kind of god, and is often considered by other entities as "false god". And TES3 proved he is mortal. I would not consider Vivec's teachings as 100% true, accurate and exhaustive.

As for Daedric princes, they are already able to create their own planes, and not mortal. The original schism between Aedras and Daedras is their way to anchor their reality. Aedras have focused on Mundus to anchor a plane of existence they could live in, while daedric princes have each tried to mantle on their own, but have only created their own oblivion plane still within the Godhead-dream. To actually mantle the Godhead, you should be out and beyond of the Godhead-dream first.

As I understand it, from Daedra perspective, "CHIM" is the transition to mortal state which was used to anchor Mundus, and/or the transition to daedric prince state which was used to create oblivion planes.

In the case of Hermaeus Mora, he is said to collect everything known within Mundus ("the shadow of mortal knowledge" - or something like that ?). So he knows about the attempts to transcend existence, but cannot confirm the results. Assuming someone does transcend his existence beyond the Godhead-dream, he would disappear from it, "out of radars" ; so from inside the Godhead-dream, you cannot tell if he did actually transcend or was just destroyed in the process (similar to Dwemer's plane-transition, on a different scale).

I doubt Mora would ever try to mantle the Godhead-dream, as this would imply to abandon everything he is and everything he knows in the process, for a totally unknown outcome.

My interpretation is that Ithelia rewrites reality around her, as if time was not linear, creating inconcistencies in Mundus history and causality of events. Mora is heavily impacted, as his collected history and secrets are worth nothing if they can be rewritten every now and then by Ithelia. Other princes are also impacted, as Ithelia has the potential to "undo" any outcome of their plots.

CHIM has been described to me as a process in which any being becomes aware of their state as not being real and their reality is a Dream, yet insists that they are real and their reality is real. While Vivec is a horrible source for many things and a known liar, he does speak truth sometimes and I’m not sure he’s lying when it comes to the metaphysics of TES because I’m not sure how else he would know about the Wheel and The Tower.

I am also of the belief that Oblivion Planes are the same as the Aedric Planets, they are not mere creations but rather an extension of themselves, a part of their true heavenly form. (I insist that the Planets at least are the default form of an Aedra due to their current state I will get to in a moment but also due to the very obvious truth that the hole Magnus left is round and not man-shaped.)

The Aedra did not choose to anchor to the Mundus, so I don’t think their current state makes a point here. The Aedra don’t particularly want to be there but they’re chained to Nirn because of Lorkhan’s betrayal, which sucks their energy away. This is why I think we never see or hear the Aedra, only extensions of them that do not require them, like artifacts and Dragons. I believe they’re stuck in low power mode, as planets with no humanly form.

So, while they are gods, I don’t think Aedra and Daedra are actually creating new realms but rather their realms are their divine form.

Edit: Not to mention that the Moons are parts of Lorkhan and its likely enough Nirn is also Lorkhan and the Moons broke off from it like our IRL moon did. Mankar Camoran makes no sense but I think he got that one (1) thing right.

jaekobcaed · June 10

MerguezMan wrote: »

Guys, you keep repeating "CHIM" without defining it clearly, and that is the first mistake.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:CHIM#cite_note-MOTPE-7

From what I understand, this is a daedric word to describe a state of mind allowing mortals to transcend their condition.

Anyone can understand what meditation and the concept of "illumination of mind" is, but simply understanding and knowing about it does not allow you to achieve it and actually reach such state ; it requires practice. Simply understanding what CHIM is does not make one reach such state, but is the first step to allow you to do so. And it also probably requires a lot of magic energy.

Vivec wrote and said a lot of things, which are only partially true. He rewrote his own history for his folks to believe he has always been a kind of god, and is often considered by other entities as "false god". And TES3 proved he is mortal. I would not consider Vivec's teachings as 100% true, accurate and exhaustive.

As for Daedric princes, they are already able to create their own planes, and not mortal. The original schism between Aedras and Daedras is their way to anchor their reality. Aedras have focused on Mundus to anchor a plane of existence they could live in, while daedric princes have each tried to mantle on their own, but have only created their own oblivion plane still within the Godhead-dream. To actually mantle the Godhead, you should be out and beyond of the Godhead-dream first.

As I understand it, from Daedra perspective, "CHIM" is the transition to mortal state which was used to anchor Mundus, and/or the transition to daedric prince state which was used to create oblivion planes.

In the case of Hermaeus Mora, he is said to collect everything known within Mundus ("the shadow of mortal knowledge" - or something like that ?). So he knows about the attempts to transcend existence, but cannot confirm the results. Assuming someone does transcend his existence beyond the Godhead-dream, he would disappear from it, "out of radars" ; so from inside the Godhead-dream, you cannot tell if he did actually transcend or was just destroyed in the process (similar to Dwemer's plane-transition, on a different scale).

I doubt Mora would ever try to mantle the Godhead-dream, as this would imply to abandon everything he is and everything he knows in the process, for a totally unknown outcome.

My interpretation is that Ithelia rewrites reality around her, as if time was not linear, creating inconcistencies in Mundus history and causality of events. Mora is heavily impacted, as his collected history and secrets are worth nothing if they can be rewritten every now and then by Ithelia. Other princes are also impacted, as Ithelia has the potential to "undo" any outcome of their plots.

You're not wrong but the core of CHIM is that you figure out the mystery of the Dream. You discover that everything in reality is just a figment of a Dreamer's imagination. That's not a practice so much as a realization. The practice comes in where an individual has to continually defy logic, they defy the nature of reality by saying "I am" when reality says "you are not". So, it's a bit of both: a realization and a meditative practice.

As for whether Aedra can create their own planes, I suppose it depends on definitions. In terms of cosmology, we know that the Aedra have planets or, rather, are planets. I would imagine they can at least control and shape those planes despite the fact that they lost so much power after the creation of Mundus.

That's actually an interesting take on CHIM being the means by which the Aedra contributed to Mundus' creation but I'm still not 100% convinced that all the Aedra/Daedra have achieved the state of CHIM. After all, CHIM allows the individual to reshape reality as they see fit, yet the Aedra rely on prayers and the Daedra rely on mortal champions; someone who has achieved CHIM wouldn't really need that help, would they?

As for Mora, the reason I speculated this is because he apparently knows more than the other Princes and sure, he does collect a lot of knowledge but where does that knowledge come from? His peers among the et'Ada? If so, then they also know the secret, probably even some of the lessers who can be defeated by mortals. If the knowledge doesn't come from them, it's definitely not coming solely from mortals who understand and reach CHIM, considering how few actually reach that state. Moreover, if someone is able to alter reality and recognize that reality is a Dream, then I'd say that their understanding of time probably isn't restricted to linearity either. Aside from Akatosh, Ithelia and, to some extent, Hermaeus Mora, most of the other Aedra and Daedra seem to be quite incapable of seeing time in any way other than the linear experience that the mortals are locked into.

At the end of the day, it's all just speculation and I might be extremely far from the mark. No clue. I still have yet to play Necrom or Gold Road... I had planned to grab the Gold Road collection and catch up on Necrom before Gold Road's release but sadly, money wasn't there and won't be for at least a few more weeks, so my speculation could easily be completely outdated by now.