[Forum Observation] Getting beat = nurf needed

scratchnsniff · May 2014

Reading the alliance forum I have noticed common theme. If one class doesn't like a skill another class has, it is overpowered and needs a Nerf.

Think of the following...

What some need to realize is that even if you are vet rank 1 and you fight a vet rank ten, there is a huge gap in weapons and gear. I was shocked when I first saw the pvp armor. This means more often then not, the vr10 will kill you. If a level 10, auto leveled to 50 meets a vr10. Just /stuck to save urself the frustration.

Next, every class has unique skills available to that class. If ever class had the same type of skills, what is the point? Unless that skill can single handedly dominate and wipe you or your side out. It is not overpowered. For example, if you have a 1 v 8 and the single wipes the 8. That's overpowered.

Next. If I get into a fight with someone, and I am getting my rear kicked I have two options. Run or die. If I decide to run, and I have the ability to run faster than the person beating my rear, I am not overpowered. I simply have the skill and ability to run faster. If a class has the ability to stealth and escape, or in a sorc case, use bolt escape, it doesn't make them overpowered. It makes them a wuss.
Remember, these skills use stamina or magicka and will eventually run out.

All I am saying is in pvp, every class has an advantage and/or disadvantage compared to another class. If combat was always fair, there would be no pvp as all bad players would quit and the rest would just beat on each other for hours.

beravinprb19_ESO · May 2014

What most people fail to realize is that we are not all biased fools. I'm a DK, and even I think some DK abilities are stupid in their current state. Besides, I doubt anyone is silly enough to think the game is perfectly balanced, 1 month after release, and needs no changes.

Harakh · May 2014

in case auf bolt escape it would be good when it not breaks root, cause the teleport strike of the nb cannot be done when the nb is rooted so it must be with bolt escape and we have a counter to it. easy fix i think.

Glurin · May 2014

beravinprb19_ESO wrote: »

What most people fail to realize is that we are not all biased fools. I'm a DK, and even I think some DK abilities are stupid in their current state. Besides, I doubt anyone is silly enough to think the game is perfectly balanced, 1 month after release, and needs no changes.

True, but there is a common trend, particularly in MMO PvP, to call for nerfs on virtually anything that prevents that person from achieving an easy kill or gives their opponent the slightest advantage in any area. Doesn't matter if the game has been out for ten minutes or ten years. Hell, in some cases you'll hear calls for a substantial nerf before the game is even released based on nothing more than wild speculation.

This makes it somewhat difficult at times to sort out what is overpowered and what is a L2P issue. Although there are times where its rather easy. If the people calling it a L2P issue say all you have to do to survive the attack is be a specific class speced into one specific skill wearing a particular set of gear with an otherwise useless weapon, standing exactly 3.27 meters away doing the chicken dance emote while singing the entire Modern Major-General's song in general chat, that pretty much says that the skill in question is most definitely overpowered. Won't stop them from crying when it's nerfed though.

beravinprb19_ESO · May 2014

But that's just it, players don't look at balance from every angle. When people talk about Bolt Escape, for example, they never mention risk versus reward, or ease of use versus effectiveness. Don't even get me started on player satisfaction, or I'll end up ranting for several pages. Balance is not as black and white as people make it out to be.

Theron75 · May 2014

MMO PvP Posting 101:

1) Every class is OP. Except mine.
2) All of my abilities are broken.
3) I want what the other guy has.
4) If I get beat, it must be hax or 'sploitz. Because I am uber.
5) Everyone agrees with me.

Tannakaobi · May 2014

beravinprb19_ESO wrote: »

But that's just it, players don't look at balance from every angle. When people talk about Bolt Escape, for example, they never mention risk versus reward, or ease of use versus effectiveness. Don't even get me started on player satisfaction, or I'll end up ranting for several pages. Balance is not as black and white as people make it out to be.

OK, so lets discuss Bolt Escape:

Risk versus reward: Risk - None, it's an escape, if it does not work you will die, same as if you didn't use it. Reward - huge, prevents you from dieing.

Ease of use versus effectiveness: Ease of use, very easy. Press one button repeatedly. Effectiveness - very effective, not only can it save a life, but it can make a sorcerer really hard to kill.

Right then, before this dicussion I had no feelings about Bolt Escape, I don't play a sorcerer and it has not caused me any alarm during my time in PVP. However, upon looking at the evidence it would appear that Bolt Escape gives sorcerers and advantage, solution - nerf (so long as every other skill is also nerfed)

Nope, I don't see how that helped...

Cydone · May 2014

Theron75 wrote: »

MMO PvP Posting 101:

1) Every class is OP. Except mine.
2) All of my abilities are broken.
3) I want what the other guy has.
4) If I get beat, it must be hax or 'sploitz. Because I am uber.
5) Everyone agrees with me.

I lol'd at your list....very well done. Except or #2.....at least in the case of Nightblade. Multiple abilities have been documented as being bugged or broken.

e.gamemarkb14_ESO · May 2014

kylemelhuishb16_ESO wrote: »

beravinprb19_ESO wrote: »

But that's just it, players don't look at balance from every angle. When people talk about Bolt Escape, for example, they never mention risk versus reward, or ease of use versus effectiveness. Don't even get me started on player satisfaction, or I'll end up ranting for several pages. Balance is not as black and white as people make it out to be.

OK, so lets discuss Bolt Escape:

Risk versus reward: Risk - None, it's an escape, if it does not work you will die, same as if you didn't use it. Reward - huge, prevents you from dieing.

Ease of use versus effectiveness: Ease of use, very easy. Press one button repeatedly. Effectiveness - very effective, not only can it save a life, but it can make a sorcerer really hard to kill.

Right then, before this dicussion I had no feelings about Bolt Escape, I don't play a sorcerer and it has not caused me any alarm during my time in PVP. However, upon looking at the evidence it would appear that Bolt Escape gives sorcerers and advantage, solution - nerf (so long as every other skill is also nerfed)

Nope, I don't see how that helped...

Yet we see a lot of Sorcs not use the "escape" part because they can morph this skill to do a moderate amount of damage while they "bolt" through players endlessly back and forth. Stun - DPS - turn around, rinse / repeat.

Plenty of videos on this, and when combined with the +crit / +pwr potions you can get, I have seen first hand how Sorcs can erase 30-40% of another Veteran ranked player's health each time they "bolt" through them.

If this skill was meant as an escape as the skill name suggests, then they need to re-work how much damage the morph component can do, and make it so they can't "bolt" away while rooted, which is exactly how it works vrs Nightblades as they cannot teleport strike in that situation until they are free.

Rial · May 2014

My observation: person posts legitimate cirticism of imbalanced skills. Gets flooded with people telling them to stop whining because they're just upset they lost.

Marginalizing legitimate criticism won't make the game better. It gives the developers (or even worse, people designated to sift through the forums for feedback who have no idea of how the game works internally) a distorted view of the state of the game.

beravinprb19_ESO · May 2014

Rial wrote: »

My observation: person posts legitimate cirticism of imbalanced skills. Gets flooded with people telling them to stop whining because they're just upset they lost.

Said it better than I could. I mean, people actually claimed Vampires were balanced at one point. Just goes to show how far people will go to protect their style of play...

Rial · May 2014

beravinprb19_ESO wrote: »

Said it better than I could. I mean, people actually claimed Vampires were balanced at one point.

I'd say games with popular IPs fall prey to this, lots of people defending it beyond all reason. The result is insulating the devs from citicism with lots of "stop whining it's fine the way it is" posts either out of ignorance or irrational defensiveness, ultimately getting in the way of the game actually becoming more fun for non-"fanbois".

scratchnsniff · May 2014

Let me start by saying the following is purely hypothetical opinion and not my opinion.

Saying skills such as bolt escape is overpowered is like saying the DK I
Skill that pulls the enemy to you is overpowered.

If I am a light armor, ranged class, if I get pulled to mêlée range I am dead. So why should a class be able to perform this action. It is not fair.

The point is. Any class can make an argument for their point and the class with that skill will say they are whining. Personally, I did think vampires were overpowered. However I asked around to find the weakness to help me survive.

beravinprb19_ESO · May 2014

scratchnsniff wrote: »

Let me start by saying the following is purely hypothetical opinion and not my opinion.

Saying skills such as bolt escape is overpowered is like saying the DK I
Skill that pulls the enemy to you is overpowered.

If I am a light armor, ranged class, if I get pulled to mêlée range I am dead. So why should a class be able to perform this action. It is not fair.

The point is. Any class can make an argument for their point and the class with that skill will say they are whining. Personally, I did think vampires were overpowered. However I asked around to find the weakness to help me survive.

As someone who actually plays a DK and has Extended Chains on my second bar, I can tell you that 90% of the players I grip are smart enough to roll away from me almost as soon as they land. My point is that, while effective at what it does, its also not that hard to deal with. Bolt Escape, on the other hand, requires people to build around dealing with it.

scratchnsniff · May 2014

Yeah, I am too much of a noob to figure that out. Hahahaha

beravinprb19_ESO · May 2014

scratchnsniff wrote: »

Yeah, I am too much of a noob to figure that out. Hahahaha

Nah, its fine. You don't have to be amazing at the game to have an opinion. I'm certainly not amazing at it, haha. Forgive me, I just have an unreasonable hatred for Bolt Escape.

scratchnsniff · May 2014

beravinprb19_ESO wrote: »

Nah, its fine. You don't have to be amazing at the game to have an opinion. I'm certainly not amazing at it, haha. Forgive me, I just have an unreasonable hatred for Bolt Escape.

It is all good. Opinions are like ass holes, everyone has one. Some are clean, some are dirty and some smell better than others.

I believe Bolt escape should not be possible if I am rooted/stunned, however besides that, I am ok with it. I die a lot in PvP so if I can get away every once in a while I am happy. I usually only use it if I am ganked. But those who use it all the time, they are wusses. Once again, Just my opinion.

Thechemicals · May 2014

Its the fact that at level 10, you can enter a pvp zone and get turned out faster than a guy named Lorin in a prison cell. You have so many under-levelled people entering Cyrodiil, what kind of positive feedback can they possibly have? Better yet, what kind of truth does a level 10-40 have to say about Cyrodiil?

I went to Cyrodiil at level 20 and walked right back out. I returned at 40 and am starting to notice that the experience is much better when you are....established.

Samadhi · May 2014

*Personal anecdote about how someone did something I don't like* *Explanation of how nerfing the previously mentioned occurrence is the only thing blocking this game from having perfect PvP* (*Bonus preemptive claim that anyone who disagrees with me is biased and/or abusing game mechanics and therefor has illegitimate counterarguments*)

Oblongship · May 2014

scratchnsniff wrote: »

Reading the alliance forum I have noticed common theme. If one class doesn't like a skill another class has, it is overpowered and needs a Nerf.

Think of the following...

What some need to realize is that even if you are vet rank 1 and you fight a vet rank ten, there is a huge gap in weapons and gear. I was shocked when I first saw the pvp armor. This means more often then not, the vr10 will kill you. If a level 10, auto leveled to 50 meets a vr10. Just /stuck to save urself the frustration.

Next, every class has unique skills available to that class. If ever class had the same type of skills, what is the point? Unless that skill can single handedly dominate and wipe you or your side out. It is not overpowered. For example, if you have a 1 v 8 and the single wipes the 8. That's overpowered.

Next. If I get into a fight with someone, and I am getting my rear kicked I have two options. Run or die. If I decide to run, and I have the ability to run faster than the person beating my rear, I am not overpowered. I simply have the skill and ability to run faster. If a class has the ability to stealth and escape, or in a sorc case, use bolt escape, it doesn't make them overpowered. It makes them a wuss.
Remember, these skills use stamina or magicka and will eventually run out.

All I am saying is in pvp, every class has an advantage and/or disadvantage compared to another class. If combat was always fair, there would be no pvp as all bad players would quit and the rest would just beat on each other for hours.

Welcome to the internet....you must be new here.

Kypho · May 2014

Problem is that some skills/items what gives you Magicka or Stamina, are too strong so you wont run out. Thats why Spam scrolls online. in ES games you was not spammer because you was unable to maintain resources (exept potion eating every sec or glitches) ESO needs no brain for someone who can spamm aoe crap, bolt escape, talon, nubbash etc.

NordJitsu · May 2014

e.gamemarkb14_ESO wrote: »

vrs Nightblades as they cannot teleport strike in that situation until they are free.

Actually no, Teleport strike works while rooted.

Niffo · May 2014

[Forum Observation] If it's overpowered and it benefits me, it's perfectly fine.

[Additional Forum Observation] Reading comprehension is in short supply.