Is it the players or the dungeon system?

Skyrghren · April 10

Personally, I think the fact that so many eso players absolutely suck at playing co-op content is only half the problem. The other side of the coin is that eso dungeons are designed in such a way that whenever a design choice was made, it rewards the worst type of gameplay.

For example, no bottlenecks that require the whole group to be present to pass means that team cohesion is at best irrelevant and at worst an obstacle to the rushing egoists. The Leeroy Jenkins who rushes ahead and lets the rest of the group jog behind is not punished for playing solo when they queued for a group activity, but instead they are rewarded with faster completion. That the people trying to catch up may lose out on boss loot drops when the solo Leeroy finishes the boss before the rest can even get there is a travesty from a group-content design standpoint, but rewards the Leeroy with their drop and screw the rest of the team, who needs them. Normal dungeons easily being soloable by one heavy dps means that all other roles are either at best useless because everything is cleared before they can get to the action, or at worst it actively encourages lying about what role somebody's gonna actually play (spoiler, it's ALWAYS dps).

Eso dungeons encourage the worst play styles, punish people for actually trying to play the (mandatory!!, otherwise group finder won't even pop without a "healer" and a "tank") roles in dungeons and despite having the potential for being among the best co-op experiences in the current MMO space, spectacularly fail at fostering actual co-op play.

EDIT:
And how could I forget one of the worst bits: you can't even curate who you want to play with, since there's no way to block players from being sorted into queues with you - the ignore function only blocks their chat visibility (and even for that bread crumb you have to perfectly remember their name to type it into a separate window [good lück if they used any special letters], or you have to hope that they typed in chat at some point so you can right click their name for a context menu). The whole thing seems like it's designed to funnel victims towards bad players who will try to "beat them" in the dungeon and dishonest players who fake queued as tanks or heals to skip the queue.

valenwood_vegan · April 11

From posts like this you'd think the random queue is the only method of experiencing a dungeon in eso. It's not.

Some of us don't use it much (or at all) and have a great time doing dungeons with people who do meet our expectations. I personally know a *lot* of skilled, chill players who one will probably never meet in the random queue.

This is not to suggest that the problems with the random queue don't exist, but it's also not as if alternatives are unavailable. If it's really so bad, make some effort to form a group! Just a suggestion.

Skyrghren · April 11

valenwood_vegan wrote: »

From posts like this you'd think the random queue is the only method of experiencing a dungeon in eso. It's not.

Some of us don't use it much (or at all) and have a great time doing dungeons with people who do meet our expectations. I personally know a *lot* of skilled, chill players who one will probably never meet in the random queue.

This is not to suggest that the problems with the random queue don't exist, but it's also not as if alternatives are unavailable. If it's really so bad, make some effort to form a group! Just a suggestion.

The thing is, I see potential greatness dragged down by distinct flaws. Your suggestion of abandoning the system altogether will not solve the issues, nor make it any better for the people left using the system.

Daoin · April 11

group finder has been a great step in forming parties now, hopefully some touching up of the actual random dungeon finder lays ahead in the future too.

alpha_synuclein · April 11

It's both. The current abundance of speedrunners is a direct consequence of two things:

1. Putting limited but desired currency behind beginner level group content.

2. Beefing up DDs to the point where finishing said content don't require a group to complete.

First one would be easy to solve, up the transmutes for vets (where most speedrunners belong anyway). Add more to pledges and trials. Diversification is long overdue here...

The second one is hapenning more and more since the introduction of Pale order ring. And it looks like it will keep happening, so we'll keep getting what we have.

Skyrghren · April 11

Daoin wrote: »

group finder has been a great step in forming parties now, hopefully some touching up of the actual random dungeon finder lays ahead in the future too.

Problem with group finder is great intentions with sub-optimal implementation. One can not queue while in the group finder. So you always have to choose whether you want to miss out on a potential queue pop happening while in the group finder or be stuck in the dps- heal-tank obsoleteness of normal dungeon finder queue teams. If both could be running simultaneously and whichever pops cancels the other one, there wouldn't be the permanent FOMO while using either.

El_Borracho · April 11

I have no problem with speed running in a dungeon, as long as the group wants to do it. If only there were a way to find out what the group wants. Perhaps a group chat feature...

Like @valenwood_vegan I also run with guilds and friends, and the most common tactic in dungeons, especially veteran dungeons, is to speed run. Either its to avoid long add fights by running into a boss fight (i.e. Imperial City Prison), avoid adds altogether (Fungal 1), or to pull them into a choke point and burn them down all at once, which is pretty common. These constant melodramatic posts equating speed running with poor sportsmanship, rudeness, selfishness, or vindictive behavior are absurd.

If someone queues in a random and needs the quest, or wants side bosses, or wants hard mode, they should use the group chat to ask the others. The vast majority of the time, the others will go along with the request. But what's forgotten is that you queued in a random. Which means you might get 3 others who do not want to run all side bosses in Red Petal Bastion. Who do not want to fight all bosses in Fungal 1. Who do not want to help farm the greaves lead in Coral Aerie. In that case, forcing the other 3 to do what the one player wants is the same thing as that one player speed running when the other 3 do not.

I see this as no different than hard mode in Hel Ra. If 11 players do not want to do hard mode, and the 12th does, too bad #12, you're not doing hard mode. And if #12 goes ahead and breaks the statues, that player is not the "victim" no matter how much they claim its about "team cohesion" and "playing the content as intended." The oft-posited "solution" of reworking dungeons to force slow, slogging play is ridiculous, and in a lot of ways is more selfish than speed running.

Soarora · April 11

It sounds like you'll be a lot happier in the vet DLC queue. Take advantage of the speedrunning and use normal to get some decent gear (like pillar of nirn for DPS, spell power cure for healer, turning tide for tank) and then just do vet. Vet doesn't have speedrunning problems as much because people usually die. Gates can't be added to content because people who truly solo dungeons would get mad.

colossalvoids · April 12

Soarora wrote: »

Gates can't be added to content because people who truly solo dungeons would get mad.

There are other issues like potential in combat bugs preventing normal flow like WS have, people intentionally prolonging next phase advancement, people quit or disconnect making others to disband right away or wait for unknown amount of time for replacement etc. it's just a bad solution, if there's a problem.

Skyrghren · April 12

El_Borracho wrote: »

I have no problem with speed running in a dungeon, as long as the group wants to do it. If only there were a way to find out what the group wants. Perhaps a group chat feature...

Like @valenwood_vegan I also run with guilds and friends, and the most common tactic in dungeons, especially veteran dungeons, is to speed run. Either its to avoid long add fights by running into a boss fight (i.e. Imperial City Prison), avoid adds altogether (Fungal 1), or to pull them into a choke point and burn them down all at once, which is pretty common. These constant melodramatic posts equating speed running with poor sportsmanship, rudeness, selfishness, or vindictive behavior are absurd.

If someone queues in a random and needs the quest, or wants side bosses, or wants hard mode, they should use the group chat to ask the others. The vast majority of the time, the others will go along with the request. But what's forgotten is that you queued in a random. Which means you might get 3 others who do not want to run all side bosses in Red Petal Bastion. Who do not want to fight all bosses in Fungal 1. Who do not want to help farm the greaves lead in Coral Aerie. In that case, forcing the other 3 to do what the one player wants is the same thing as that one player speed running when the other 3 do not.

I see this as no different than hard mode in Hel Ra. If 11 players do not want to do hard mode, and the 12th does, too bad #12, you're not doing hard mode. And if #12 goes ahead and breaks the statues, that player is not the "victim" no matter how much they claim its about "team cohesion" and "playing the content as intended." The oft-posited "solution" of reworking dungeons to force slow, slogging play is ridiculous, and in a lot of ways is more selfish than speed running.

I've seen it too often that somebody who queued as "tank" or "healer" rushes straight to the boss, completely ignoring the rest of the team, while all the adds on the way beeline it for the not even properly loaded in newbies. Leeroy Jenkins then kills the boss before the rest of the team has the chance to get near enough to even get loot from the boss.

I have nothing against proper speedrunning, I do however mind sociopaths who queue for a role they have no intention of playing in order to cheat and get a faster queue pop than people who queue for their actual role, and then not only not playing with the group in the group content they queued for, but actively harming the rest of the group with their egoistic playstyle.

El_Borracho · April 12

Skyrghren wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

I have no problem with speed running in a dungeon, as long as the group wants to do it. If only there were a way to find out what the group wants. Perhaps a group chat feature...

Like @valenwood_vegan I also run with guilds and friends, and the most common tactic in dungeons, especially veteran dungeons, is to speed run. Either its to avoid long add fights by running into a boss fight (i.e. Imperial City Prison), avoid adds altogether (Fungal 1), or to pull them into a choke point and burn them down all at once, which is pretty common. These constant melodramatic posts equating speed running with poor sportsmanship, rudeness, selfishness, or vindictive behavior are absurd.

If someone queues in a random and needs the quest, or wants side bosses, or wants hard mode, they should use the group chat to ask the others. The vast majority of the time, the others will go along with the request. But what's forgotten is that you queued in a random. Which means you might get 3 others who do not want to run all side bosses in Red Petal Bastion. Who do not want to fight all bosses in Fungal 1. Who do not want to help farm the greaves lead in Coral Aerie. In that case, forcing the other 3 to do what the one player wants is the same thing as that one player speed running when the other 3 do not.

I see this as no different than hard mode in Hel Ra. If 11 players do not want to do hard mode, and the 12th does, too bad #12, you're not doing hard mode. And if #12 goes ahead and breaks the statues, that player is not the "victim" no matter how much they claim its about "team cohesion" and "playing the content as intended." The oft-posited "solution" of reworking dungeons to force slow, slogging play is ridiculous, and in a lot of ways is more selfish than speed running.

I've seen it too often that somebody who queued as "tank" or "healer" rushes straight to the boss, completely ignoring the rest of the team, while all the adds on the way beeline it for the not even properly loaded in newbies. Leeroy Jenkins then kills the boss before the rest of the team has the chance to get near enough to even get loot from the boss.

I have nothing against proper speedrunning, I do however mind sociopaths who queue for a role they have no intention of playing in order to cheat and get a faster queue pop than people who queue for their actual role, and then not only not playing with the group in the group content they queued for, but actively harming the rest of the group with their egoistic playstyle.

That's a problem that will never be solved, although, if someone can speed run to the boss and kill them before the group gets there, that's also pretty impressive. Like others have said, the solution to that is queue for random veteran dungeons or run with an organized group. Because Leeroy Jenkins and teabaggers are not going away, and the game should not be altered to punish the vast majority who do not do this.

Necrotech_Master · April 12

there are a few dungeons with mentioned bottlenecks, such as the levers in ICP, or the pressure plates in direfrost keep, but those are only 1 spot not throughout the entire dungeon

Skyrghren · April 12

El_Borracho wrote: »

Skyrghren wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

I have no problem with speed running in a dungeon, as long as the group wants to do it. If only there were a way to find out what the group wants. Perhaps a group chat feature...

Like @valenwood_vegan I also run with guilds and friends, and the most common tactic in dungeons, especially veteran dungeons, is to speed run. Either its to avoid long add fights by running into a boss fight (i.e. Imperial City Prison), avoid adds altogether (Fungal 1), or to pull them into a choke point and burn them down all at once, which is pretty common. These constant melodramatic posts equating speed running with poor sportsmanship, rudeness, selfishness, or vindictive behavior are absurd.

If someone queues in a random and needs the quest, or wants side bosses, or wants hard mode, they should use the group chat to ask the others. The vast majority of the time, the others will go along with the request. But what's forgotten is that you queued in a random. Which means you might get 3 others who do not want to run all side bosses in Red Petal Bastion. Who do not want to fight all bosses in Fungal 1. Who do not want to help farm the greaves lead in Coral Aerie. In that case, forcing the other 3 to do what the one player wants is the same thing as that one player speed running when the other 3 do not.

I see this as no different than hard mode in Hel Ra. If 11 players do not want to do hard mode, and the 12th does, too bad #12, you're not doing hard mode. And if #12 goes ahead and breaks the statues, that player is not the "victim" no matter how much they claim its about "team cohesion" and "playing the content as intended." The oft-posited "solution" of reworking dungeons to force slow, slogging play is ridiculous, and in a lot of ways is more selfish than speed running.

I've seen it too often that somebody who queued as "tank" or "healer" rushes straight to the boss, completely ignoring the rest of the team, while all the adds on the way beeline it for the not even properly loaded in newbies. Leeroy Jenkins then kills the boss before the rest of the team has the chance to get near enough to even get loot from the boss.

I have nothing against proper speedrunning, I do however mind sociopaths who queue for a role they have no intention of playing in order to cheat and get a faster queue pop than people who queue for their actual role, and then not only not playing with the group in the group content they queued for, but actively harming the rest of the group with their egoistic playstyle.

That's a problem that will never be solved, although, if someone can speed run to the boss and kill them before the group gets there, that's also pretty impressive. Like others have said, the solution to that is queue for random veteran dungeons or run with an organized group. Because Leeroy Jenkins and teabaggers are not going away, and the game should not be altered to punish the vast majority who do not do this.

If you wanna just resign, that's fine, but the loot problem for example could easily be solved or at least mitigated by making the boss drop 4x loot, regardless of distance. The role requirements for normals have been obsolete for quite some time and could be relinquished without even changing the 4x dps per run status quo. If four people queueing at once could trigger a run, then the fake queueing would stop. SWTOR has solved this by showing you the level and class of who your three prospective teammates are and then you can decide whether you want to run with those people or skip until a group composition you like more pops a run.

But I guess just giving up and accepting the shortcomings works too, especially given zeni's technical prowess when it comes to improving anything.

valenwood_vegan · April 12

Skyrghren wrote: »

But I guess just giving up and accepting the shortcomings works too, especially given zeni's technical prowess when it comes to improving anything.

I mean I guess giving up is one way to frame it... I would say I put in the effort to join guilds, make friends, and ensure a better, more consistent dungeon experience for myself where I'm not at the mercy of whatever random people pop up in the queue that day.

I personally look at the random finder as more of a starting point to initially get into dungeons, and a then as a backup plan for the rare time I can't find a full group to run with. Far from giving up, I'd say I eventually grew beyond reliance on the queue.

Regardless, if you think you have solutions to the problems with the random finder, I'm certainly not here to stop you.

I don't think zos has ever shown much interest in addressing (or even engaging with) the frequent complaints about the random finder, thus my suggestion up above is nothing more than that - a potential way for people who are upset with the random finder to improve their experience now, instead of waiting for someone else to improve it for them.

pelle412 · April 15

Nothing in the game teaches a new player how to perform in a group in content more difficult than overland quests. You can build your character pretty much how you want and it can perform like a doorknob. You can put 64 points into health, and any weapon you use will hit like a wet noodle.

N00BxV1 · April 22

I feel like some people have no idea what it's really like to use the Activity Finder's Veteran/DLC Dungeon queue and to play with random strangers in game... And especially if you only play with friends or guild mates then you really have no idea of the struggles that some other people have to go through... You can not escape the toxicity EVEN IN VET DLC DUNGEONS!!!

I'm just gonna link to my recent posts from another thread since it's also relevant in this thread, and because I didn't see this thread before making those posts...

About Veteran Dungeons:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8095727/#Comment_8095727

About Rewards and Incentives:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8095968/#Comment_8095968

TLDR;
These days even the Activity Finder's Veteran Dungeon queue is just about as toxic as the Normal Dungeon queue. There are Fake Healers, Speed-Runners, unprepared players, and players that expect to get carried, in all Veteran Dungeons including Veteran DLC Dungeons! And the Dungeon reward/incentive structure needs improvement. It's not right that there isn't much incentive for running harder dungeons.

[Edit]
While using the Activity Finder I have played with good groups, and I have played with bad groups. And it is a world of difference! The skill gap in this game is as big as Mount Everest!