If Sorc can get all this Healing why can't templar get more damage?

KainedED · April 17

According to a previous patch cycle dev notes stated templar damage was not being reworked/buffed other than /VERY/ cautious adjustments to Backlash (Power of the Light) because classes need weaknesses.

Reference: Update 38

The crux of my entire post is this:

Where is Nightblades Weakness?

Where is Dragon Knights Weakness?

Why did you just provide Sorcerer with one of the strongest heal/shield mechanics and even in this PTS cycle gave them additional healing through the Blood Magic passive when their stated weakness was supposed to be the lack of staying power due to their extremely high base damage/mobility.

I'm not asking for nerfs to the respective classes listed, I'm more interested in learning what the design philosophy is, if there genuinely isn't one can Templar finally please get a rework to its offensive kit or some buffs. Since update 35 its offensive capabilities have been dead in the water except for Radiant Oppression. In my opinion the class has become even less interactive and less fun since jab spamming pre update 35, there's nothing in this class offensive kit that makes me so " Oh wow there are a lot of possibilities for playstyles here ".

There are a high number of inconsistencies in class balance/design, templar & Necromancer are huge indicators of this. I'm sure a lot of people would feel much more at ease after a 2-3 year long wait for some relevance when playing their favorite classes if we could get some concrete information on what the hell is going on.

Telos_Tim · April 17

Don’t see anyone else commenting on this, but that was the exact reasoning given during that time.

“Classes can’t be great at everything.”

Yet here we are. Every class can be great at everything except for two, Necromancer and Templar.

MashmalloMan · April 17

To be fair, Sorc mains are on the same page. We originally asked for improvements to shields because the options were limited and shields weren't keeping up with ESO context today. Furthermore, investing into max mag is an uphill battle with terrible set options and bad scaling with the removal of max mag % multipliers found on racials (10%) and CP (20%).

To that effect, they gave +10% mag/stam passive, so that fixed the shield scaling problem, but they also coupled it with a burst heal which is low, but strong at higher max mag levels. All in a patch where they gave separate defensive tools like Encase and Mines, both of which are good, but too low in scaling and high in cost to use effectively, but decent nonetheless to avoid pets.

This patch, they improved the versatility of Blood Magic, meaning it's much more reliable as it works every time and can't be dodged, but misses out in multi hit skills like Crystal Weapon, Daedric Tomb, or Shattering Spines. I think for the most part, it's a good trade off.

For a basic pvp build not stacking into hp/mag, you can expect a +3k tooltip for casting things like Dark Deal/Conversion, Crystal Frag/Weapon, and now Vibrant Shroud/Daedric Refuge. In the case of Vibrant Shroud, despite having a lower tooltip (aoe heal) and high cost, it's now actually decent healing for the user to be competitive against other class burst heals. This is an excellent balance imo.

So the outlier remains. Hardened Ward. Too bursty and only effective for specific build types, especially in conjunction with the great and versatile Blood Magic changes we received this patch.

So yes please. Nerf Ward. My suggestion was a flat non scaling heal over time instead of a burst heal.

Back on subject, for the love of God, throw Templar a bone. Why on earth is DPS Shards getting a snare when you have multiple useless tanking skills. At the very least it would have made more sense on the utility morph.

The fact that Templars scribing script gives +33k armor on demand for 4s is so overtuned and not at all what they needed. Players who don't mind the snare are going to become impossible to kill. Players who do mind are never going to touch it with a 10ft pole. Could they not just give something more versatile and balanced?

KainedED · April 17

Good post and totally agree on sorc.

In my opinion they didn't need minor force & berserk on dark deal. The class had a pretty decent toolkit. Its healing was definitely not acceptable though. What they really needed was:

A. dark deal scaling
B. A OK hot added to dark deal to reward the player for getting the skill off.

You can't give them vigor level healing but they needed some extra extra healing to keep them in the fight just a tiny bit more.

They went ahead and made the most broken variation of a healing/defense skill possible by adding a burst heal and shield on the same button, zero weakness all gain.

TechMaybeHic · April 17

KainedED wrote: »

According to a previous patch cycle dev notes stated templar damage was not being reworked/buffed other than /VERY/ cautious adjustments to Backlash (Power of the Light) because classes need weaknesses.

Reference: Update 38

The crux of my entire post is this:

Where is Nightblades Weakness?

Where is Dragon Knights Weakness?

Why did you just provide Sorcerer with one of the strongest heal/shield mechanics and even in this PTS cycle gave them additional healing through the Blood Magic passive when their stated weakness was supposed to be the lack of staying power due to their extremely high base damage/mobility.

I'm not asking for nerfs to the respective classes listed, I'm more interested in learning what the design philosophy is, if there genuinely isn't one can Templar finally please get a rework to its offensive kit or some buffs. Since update 35 its offensive capabilities have been dead in the water except for Radiant Oppression. In my opinion the class has become even less interactive and less fun since jab spamming pre update 35, there's nothing in this class offensive kit that makes me so " Oh wow there are a lot of possibilities for playstyles here ".

There are a high number of inconsistencies in class balance/design, templar & Necromancer are huge indicators of this. I'm sure a lot of people would feel much more at ease after a 2-3 year long wait for some relevance when playing their favorite classes if we could get some concrete information on what the hell is going on.

I'm glad someone went back and found it. They said that while buffing NB over and over

MashmalloMan · April 17

KainedED wrote: »

Good post and totally agree on sorc.

In my opinion they didn't need minor force & berserk on dark deal. The class had a pretty decent toolkit. Its healing was definitely not acceptable though. What they really needed was:

A. dark deal scaling
B. A OK hot added to dark deal to reward the player for getting the skill off.

You can't give them vigor level healing but they needed some extra extra healing to keep them in the fight just a tiny bit more.

They went ahead and made the most broken variation of a healing/defense skill possible by adding a burst heal and shield on the same button, zero weakness all gain.

I somewhat agree back then, we had 2 major issues.

Extremely low named buff/debuff access especially in combination with very tight bar space as forced upon us based on double bar pets and multiple damage skills not double dipping. Eg. Crystal, Curse, Fury, BA, Shields, Streak, etc.
Terrible healing and defenses. Defenses are at least covered in part by being more elusive.

I suggested the same thing, add a HOT to Dark Deal/Conversion morphs, but still flat scaling. Instead, allow Critical Surge to scale, a skill that has been left mostly the same since 2016 despite major reworks to Racials, CP, base characters, buffs, and hybridization.

For issue 1, they admirably attempted to provide a bit better buff access via force/berserk, but they did it in a terrible way for skills that are really annoying to manage and unusable in pve. I honestly just wanted major breach on Haunting Curse and major prophecy/savagery on Bound Armaments and I think our kit would have been whole. At this point, I think breach on Haunting may be too much because we got minor vitality, major maim, minor force, and minor berserk, but prophecy/savagery on BA is a perfect fit still I think is warranted.

The fact that Blood Magic procs on DD, Daedric Refuge, and Vibrant Shroud fixes my original complaints about DD almost entirely. The only change I'd like to see now is the following:

When cast while bracing, Dark Deal/Conversion becomes instant, but no longer heals for 8k/10k.

This was my suggestion pre U42, but now it makes more sense than ever. It offers tanks a more reliable sustain tool that doesn't drop block like it does for every other class, while still providing a small HP% scaling heal via Blood Magic. A balanced trade off.

I think if they did the above, nerfed shields to a hot, then reworked BA entirely in conjunction with prophecy/savagery, Sorc would be in a very balanced state with useful, but not broken tools. Flood/Fury still need reworks, but I can continue to ignore them and still be happy.

ItsNotLiving · April 18

They don’t have any Templar themed crates in the crown store. I remember when warden was in the gutter for years until the Druid crates came out, which happened to be at the same time MagDen got reworked.

Jsmalls · April 18

Completely agree Ward is Overtuned. That being said...

If the Soul Scribe Spammable goes live as is. We need that heal attached to the Shield. Unless the intent is for Sorcs to just *die* when we reactively use a shield at Low health to recover.

I also think it needs to be discussed what we feel is the target for the capability of Ward.

What's fair? I agree it can't be good at everything which it currently is (live servers). But with the introduction of an Oblivion execute spammable?

So if I get to 15% health, 4000 HP (very easily done with an Incap, Tarnished, Anthelmirs proc). And I react with Block Casting Ward. Currently that'll bump me to 9k health with a 14k ward. Let's say we change that to a DoT, and on that cast I'm now at 5000 HP and a 14k ward. With this new ability even though I reacted what we think is fair is I should just die? What did I do wrong in that instance, I reacted the same way any other player would react.

I'm just not sure of the true way it should be balanced. They have made damage shields so "similar" to actual health that its a problem.

Is it balanced that it's temporary ( 6 seconds) where as health is permanent.
Is it balanced that Damage Shields can't be mitigated by blocking and health can.
Is it balanced that Oblivion damage bypasses it entirely.
Is it balanced that it doesn't reduce execute damage received (this one was pretty much removed with the added burst heal, but if a HoT is instead used then this will be a negative again).
Is it balanced that it scales on an inferior stat (multipliers and base values for weapon/spell damage are higher).

The Pros of a Damage shield are:

Can be used Preemptively and Reactively (HoTs are proactively / reactive, burst heals are Reactive)
Has a larger Base value and is consistent (doesn't depend on crit chance or crit multipliers).

I agree it's Overtuned. But it wouldn't take much to push it back into the inferior state it was before. It already has a lot of negatives.

Araneae6537 · April 18

I agree that Templar needs some improvements, including a reversion of the vampiric shovel to proper jabs with the spear of light.

Healing was far from the top of my list of wishes for sorc though. I just want lightning spells that do more than tickle