Personal thoughts on heavy attacks

Trejgon · April 14

Hello,
Subsequent post is going to be some of my personal thoughts and ideas in regard of heavy attacks in the game. I am posting these primarily as a room for discussion, and because if I never voice it, there is no way of expecting anything in this subject to change.

I do not enjoy using heavy attacks on most weapons out there. I am not talking here about builds focused around them, I am speaking of mechanics of heavy attack itself. The two weapons I did try using heavy attacks with, that I didn't mind, was lightning destruction staff, and bow. Former, because it was not following the typical scheme of very slow charge up to deliver one hit, but instead a channeled multi-hit attack, and bow, because whole charge up thing, made visual and thematic sense to me with a bow. I did not try restoration staves heavy quite yet, but from what I have read they share the channeled HA lightning staves enjoy, so I guess I could enjoy that one too.

But with dual wield, one handed and shield, two handed weapon, they are all regardless of type of weapon used (sword/dagger/axe/mace etc) they all do that awkward wind up for a big hit, that just feels incredibly awkward to me.

What I would love if it could happen, is if there was a possibility, to have instead some charged multihit heavy attacks on melee weapons akin to lightning staves. Dual wield could use basically same animation as skyrims dual heavy attack, for 2h weapons, there is alot out of treatises on zweihander combat that could fit there very nicely. Such option could be included with following theme of lightning staves - trying the altered heavy to the specific weapon subtype equipped (in case of dual wield, in main hand), which would be probably easier solution, but I aknowledge that some players out there may like current wind up heavies, and for that reason, I think it would be better idea (but more work intensive) to allow to select channeled vs charged heavy attacks for all the weapons. Including destruction stave,s where charged heavy lightning attack could be charging for a very big lightning bolt, and channeled versions of fire and ice staves would be akin to frostbite/flames spells (once again pulling on skyrim here, but not because I want ESO to be skyrim, but because it is simply the closest reference for animation style I can come up with).

What do you all think about it fellow users? would you be more inclined to use more heavy attacks on your daily basis if you could pick between channeled multi-strike heavies over current wind up mechanics?

Sluggy · April 15

I use heavy attacks nonstop. Every PvE rotation I come up with has a version for self sustaining that usually relies on a single heavy per rotation. They are aslo extremely important in clutch situations where you need to keep pressure up without completely stopping your assault. In PvP this goes doubly so your main strategy for sustaining will be to use heavies pretty much non-stop. As far as mechanics go I think heavy attacks being used to help sustain is one of the best aspects of combat in this game. I'm still utterly shocked that ZoS at one point considered removing it. Luckily, they took the advice from a lot of us and decided not too. It would have fundamentally broken the game in a way that might never have been recovered.

As far as heav attacks I dislike, your favorites appear to be my least favorites. I hate the bow and staff heavies because I am so greatly slowed down by them but it is a fair way to balance the fact that they can hit from a great distance (and the bow hit hard too!). I used to like the 2-Hand heavy attack but zos changed something in the way targeting works that fundamentally broke them so I don't rely on them much anymore. As for dual-wield, I think they are just about the best since they offer a double whammy with two strikes that deals two sources of damage plus they proc both enchantments. The animation is also very clean and fast and usually hits what you target without much fuss. The only downside is a long-standing bug where a fully charged dw heavy actually deals less damage than a light attack.

It seems like your major hanging point is the animations. I can understand that but it's mostly subjective. Like I said, I really like the dual-wield attack and 2-Hand wouldn't really bother me if the targeting wasn't so broken. Are they realistic? Nope. Are they over the top and goofy? Yep. But as long as I can develop a feel for them and how they make contact I'm fine with it.

Trejgon · April 15

Sluggy wrote: »

It seems like your major hanging point is the animations. I can understand that but it's mostly subjective. Like I said, I really like the dual-wield attack and 2-Hand wouldn't really bother me if the targeting wasn't so broken. Are they realistic? Nope. Are they over the top and goofy? Yep. But as long as I can develop a feel for them and how they make contact I'm fine with it.

Not just the animation itself, but the general style of playstyle that comes with the wind-up mechanic, not sure why, but for bow it feels right with me, and lightning staff does not do the wind-up at all (it's channeled attack), but every time I am to use HA for DW and 2H it feels just disruptive to the flow of combat. But yes, I am coming from subjective perspective of my own preferences here, and I aknowledge that whcih is why I think the best solution would be to have each individual player to have choice is they want to do wind-up mechanic, or channeled attack.

Credible_Joe · April 15

I like how heavy attacks work mechanically, but dislike the hyper-telegraphed windup every melee weapon has. I think they can definitely be refactored to have the same timing and impact, but without the exaugurated animation.

Something similar to the 2-Handed and Dual-Wield ultimates. Make it more about timing, and less about trying to ring the bell at a carnival. Hold the attack for a beat, then strike with timing and power.

Sluggy · April 15

Trejgon wrote: »

Sluggy wrote: »

It seems like your major hanging point is the animations. I can understand that but it's mostly subjective. Like I said, I really like the dual-wield attack and 2-Hand wouldn't really bother me if the targeting wasn't so broken. Are they realistic? Nope. Are they over the top and goofy? Yep. But as long as I can develop a feel for them and how they make contact I'm fine with it.

Not just the animation itself, but the general style of playstyle that comes with the wind-up mechanic, not sure why, but for bow it feels right with me, and lightning staff does not do the wind-up at all (it's channeled attack), but every time I am to use HA for DW and 2H it feels just disruptive to the flow of combat. But yes, I am coming from subjective perspective of my own preferences here, and I aknowledge that whcih is why I think the best solution would be to have each individual player to have choice is they want to do wind-up mechanic, or channeled attack.

So it seems to be more of a game feel and timing thing for you then. I can definitely understand why you would dislike 2-Hand. That feels absolutely terrible compared to how it used to a few years ago. I think the channeled idea for it isn't bad. Given it's current state I wouldn't even mind some kind of channeled whirling attack akin to how one would actually use a giant two-handed weapon. Though I still think Dual-Wield is pretty clean and smooth. 1-Hand and shield also feel good to me. Mostly because they are the fastest out of any heavy attack and pretty much always seem to hit the mark. Like i said before, the main draw to the Dual-Wield is specifically for the double-attack. In PvE it might seem odd but if you do any amount of PvP you'll quickly learn just how absolutely powerful that is since it's all about the burst so the more damage sources you can get at the same time, the better off you are.

AcadianPaladin · April 15

I like HA only on lightning staff for the continuous stream of damage plus AoE. No other weapon type can do both those things on HA.

My characters are all mages or archers and they all use Oakensoul - more for the simplicity of buff management than HA. In fact my archers try to only use HA for the first attack of a fight. The mages range from using HA primarily to recoup resources to a full on HA Oakensorc.

Nerouyn · April 16

Trejgon wrote: »

I am not talking here about builds focused around them, I am speaking of mechanics of heavy attack itself. The two weapons I did try using heavy attacks with, that I didn't mind, was lightning destruction staff, and bow.

As a mage type, I don't think they've ever really nailed staves in terms how they feel in combat.

I ignore what I regard as the mad-arse optimal rotation of abilities and whatever combination of light / heavy attacks happen to be optimal based on existing mechanics. That ain't fun or immersive for me.

I don't know if there is a design change solution for players like me. Nothing comes to mind immediately.

High on my list of things to do in order to advance my characters is to get the weapon attack nerfing mythic.

Velothi Ur-Mage's Amulet is a unique necklace that grants the following effect:

1 item: Adds 1650 Offensive Penetration
1 item: Increase your damage done to monsters by 15%, gain Minor Force at all times, increasing your Critical Damage done by 10%, and reduce your Light and Heavy Attack damage by 99%.

At least with that I could continue largely ignoring those, and participate in harder group combat without feeling like I'm a leech. Throwing them out staff attacks occasionally just to trigger ultimate gain.