Remove or completely rework Rahjin, the Patron that garantees a slow and painful game

Arnoldthehawk · December 2023

Title. No other explanation needed. Rahjin maked the game hell.

Arnoldthehawk · December 2023

Actually here is some reason why ZOS should remove or rework Rahjin:

- Its gameplay loop is slow on itself and doesn't really work well with others, when someone use it, it guarantees that they slow the game down for their enemy but for themselves as well.
- With each spending on the patron the game is filled with a trash card that slows down the game since not interacting with anything. It isn't fun, it is just poor trolling.

Reverb · December 2023

I hate that deck. If an opponent picks it I promise I will lean into every toxic gameplay element. I don’t even care if I lose, I will drag the game out making every turn go to the timer. I will focus entirely on decreasing your prestige, making you discard two or more cards per turn, and everything else I can do to make you regret picking that patron.

Personofsecrets · December 2023

If you don't like slow games, then maybe TOT isn't for you.

Largomets · December 2023

Reverb wrote: »

I hate that deck. If an opponent picks it I promise I will lean into every toxic gameplay element. I don’t even care if I lose, I will drag the game out making every turn go to the timer. I will focus entirely on decreasing your prestige, making you discard two or more cards per turn, and everything else I can do to make you regret picking that patron.

Lol, imagine literally (and proudly admitting to) griefing people for enjoying something differently than you do.

spartaxoxo · December 2023

Largomets wrote: »

Reverb wrote: »

I hate that deck. If an opponent picks it I promise I will lean into every toxic gameplay element. I don’t even care if I lose, I will drag the game out making every turn go to the timer. I will focus entirely on decreasing your prestige, making you discard two or more cards per turn, and everything else I can do to make you regret picking that patron.

Lol, imagine literally (and proudly admitting to) griefing people for enjoying something differently than you do.

I mean those things are the point of the deck. If someone enjoys dishing that out but not taking it so much they feel griefed, they should probably pick a different deck.

Largomets · December 2023

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Largomets wrote: »

Reverb wrote: »

I hate that deck. If an opponent picks it I promise I will lean into every toxic gameplay element. I don’t even care if I lose, I will drag the game out making every turn go to the timer. I will focus entirely on decreasing your prestige, making you discard two or more cards per turn, and everything else I can do to make you regret picking that patron.

Lol, imagine literally (and proudly admitting to) griefing people for enjoying something differently than you do.

I mean those things are the point of the deck. If someone enjoys dishing that out but not taking it so much they feel griefed, they should probably pick a different deck.

No, the point of the deck is to have punitive options similar to Almalexia and be played as intended. This player is saying that they will intentionally waste time and push the time to the time limit to purposefully grief someone, prioritize extending the game by buying the wrong cards to intentionally extend the game, use bewilderment to extend the game instead of gaining a competitive edge, and not care if they win as long as they make sure that someone else is miserable.

That's not the point of the deck. That's being a terrible person for the sake of making other people miserable. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you misunderstood them, because griefing behavior like that is indefensible.

spartaxoxo · December 2023

Largomets wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Largomets wrote: »

Reverb wrote: »

I hate that deck. If an opponent picks it I promise I will lean into every toxic gameplay element. I don’t even care if I lose, I will drag the game out making every turn go to the timer. I will focus entirely on decreasing your prestige, making you discard two or more cards per turn, and everything else I can do to make you regret picking that patron.

Lol, imagine literally (and proudly admitting to) griefing people for enjoying something differently than you do.

I mean those things are the point of the deck. If someone enjoys dishing that out but not taking it so much they feel griefed, they should probably pick a different deck.

No, the point of the deck is to have punitive options similar to Almalexia and be played as intended. This player is saying that they will intentionally waste time and push the time to the time limit to purposefully grief someone, prioritize extending the game by buying the wrong cards to intentionally extend the game, use bewilderment to extend the game instead of gaining a competitive edge, and not care if they win as long as they make sure that someone else is miserable.

That's not the point of the deck. That's being a terrible person for the sake of making other people miserable. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you misunderstood them, because griefing behavior like that is indefensible.

I took it to mean that they would lean into the gameplay of the deck because they feel the deck is inherently toxic, moreso than being serious about griefing. Spamming bewilderment is actually a very annoyingly effective strategy, so you don't actually have to throw or grief to make the opponent miserable.

If they meant they'd like wait until the timer ran out and stuff like that, then yeah that's just griefing. But making someone lose prestige and spamming the patron are unfortunately legitimate strategies.

LunaFlora · December 2023

i think Rahjin is nice and i would like him to stay

Largomets · December 2023

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I took it to mean that they would lean into the gameplay of the deck because they feel the deck is inherently toxic, moreso than being serious about griefing. Spamming bewilderment is actually a very annoyingly effective strategy, so you don't actually have to throw or grief to make the opponent miserable.

If they meant they'd like wait until the timer ran out and stuff like that, then yeah that's just griefing. But making someone lose prestige and spamming the patron are unfortunately legitimate strategies.

Ah yes, I figured that was the case. The person specifically said:

reverb wrote: »

I don’t even care if I lose, I will drag the game out making every turn go to the timer

Which is why I was scratching my head at your response. I get what you're saying and I would agree if they were doing so in good faith, which they clearly state they are not.

Necrotech_Master · December 2023

LunaFlora wrote: »

i think Rahjin is nice and i would like him to stay

this

rahjin is my favorite because its like easy mode beating the NPCs lol

i dont really play other people in tribute much, dont really enjoy that, but i do enjoy the NPC games

El_Borracho · December 2023

Reverb wrote: »

I hate that deck. If an opponent picks it I promise I will lean into every toxic gameplay element. I don’t even care if I lose, I will drag the game out making every turn go to the timer. I will focus entirely on decreasing your prestige, making you discard two or more cards per turn, and everything else I can do to make you regret picking that patron.

LOL. I'd hate to see what happens when someone Orgnum spams you.

While I agree that Rahjin can be used to troll others, its the only way to counter someone who opts for high power decks like Pelin or Mora.

WitchyKiki · December 2023

I love people who sit on the timer, because I just pull out my switch or my book and catch up on my other stuff, while you waste your own time. Its YOUR loss, I am still getting my reward and I get to freely multitask, while you make a fool out of yourself.

Also, its considered harassment and reportable.

All those things aside, I never play without Kitty. I've had it used against me plenty, and so what? Its just a game, move on.

tsaescishoeshiner · December 2023

Hi! I devote my entire ToT strategy to preventing drawn-out Rajhin games.

I get that it's fun for people, but I have a life to live and don't want to spend more than 12-15 minutes on a single game. I've even gotten messages from some Rajhin players kindly complaining that the game was too quick lol. Thank you, enjoy your defeat coffer.

So how do you beat Rajhin? How do you reduce the feline felons to feeling fallen? Patron selection and preventative power cards.

Pick Punchy Patrons

You want patrons that generate fast win conditions and power—for both players. Pick Crow, Hunding, Pelin, Red Eagle, Mora (just make sure there are at least 2 of these 5, and 3 patrons that have a 1 gold starting card—not 1 power— so that the early economy doesn't get stuck.). Whatever works for you—I consider Hlaalu and Druid King as "flex" picks here as long as there are other win conditions. Careful picking Psijic or Almalexia, as they can help you avoid Rajhin cards, but you still need power and combo cards in the tavern.

Why? Because Rajhin takes a while to get prestige-lowering combos going, and benefits from its agents staying alive. By picking these patrons that have power cards and midgame combos, both players get power faster and agents die faster.

You also give your opponent BETTER options than Rajhin. Faced with a Rajhin card and a card like Rally or Plunder, I bet they're gonna take Rally or Plunder. And if they don't, you get it, so it disadvantages Rajhin playstyles either way. You can even use Mora to put non-Rajhin cards in their deck. Set yourself up to play a crazy corvid crowdown or a frantic Frandar frenzy, not a miserable meowing mudwrestle.

The goal of picking these patrons isn't to BEAT the other player, but to make the game quicker, whoever wins, and to avoid a Rajhin stall. In my experience, the typical Rajhin picker hopes to actually pick Rajhin cards, instead of adapting to a faster-paced tavern.

Preventative Power Purchases

Lastly, if you see the opponent pick up a Rajhin agent, pick 1-2 good power cards ASAP, if not ahead of time. That agent will probably be on the board in 1-5 turns, and you don't want it to set up prestige combos. Before that, you don't need to sacrifice too much economy for power.

tonyaccount · December 2023

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

Hi! I devote my entire ToT strategy to preventing drawn-out Rajhin games.

I get that it's fun for people, but I have a life to live and don't want to spend more than 12-15 minutes on a single game. I've even gotten messages from some Rajhin players kindly complaining that the game was too quick lol. Thank you, enjoy your defeat coffer.

So how do you beat Rajhin? How do you reduce the feline felons to feeling fallen? Patron selection and preventative power cards.

Pick Punchy Patrons

You want patrons that generate fast win conditions and power—for both players. Pick Crow, Hunding, Pelin, Red Eagle, Mora (just make sure there are at least 2 of these 5, and 3 patrons that have a 1 gold starting card—not 1 power— so that the early economy doesn't get stuck.). Whatever works for you—I consider Hlaalu and Druid King as "flex" picks here as long as there are other win conditions. Careful picking Psijic or Almalexia, as they can help you avoid Rajhin cards, but you still need power and combo cards in the tavern.

Why? Because Rajhin takes a while to get prestige-lowering combos going, and benefits from its agents staying alive. By picking these patrons that have power cards and midgame combos, both players get power faster and agents die faster.

You also give your opponent BETTER options than Rajhin. Faced with a Rajhin card and a card like Rally or Plunder, I bet they're gonna take Rally or Plunder. And if they don't, you get it, so it disadvantages Rajhin playstyles either way. You can even use Mora to put non-Rajhin cards in their deck. Set yourself up to play a crazy corvid crowdown or a frantic Frandar frenzy, not a miserable meowing mudwrestle.

The goal of picking these patrons isn't to BEAT the other player, but to make the game quicker, whoever wins, and to avoid a Rajhin stall. In my experience, the typical Rajhin picker hopes to actually pick Rajhin cards, instead of adapting to a faster-paced tavern.

Preventative Power Purchases

Lastly, if you see the opponent pick up a Rajhin agent, pick 1-2 good power cards ASAP, if not ahead of time. That agent will probably be on the board in 1-5 turns, and you don't want it to set up prestige combos. Before that, you don't need to sacrifice too much economy for power.

<snip>

Let's start with the shocker: The primary reason why the best players play Rajhin is because it's designed to slow the game down and break combos. They pick it because they want to make the games more about skill than about who finds a few power cards or a few Crow cards in the first turns. There's no other counterplay against an opponent who gets a few Crow cards or Volleys/Midnight Raids early on. Rajhin is quite literally the only credible way of slowing these decks down.

Competent Rajhin players don't religiously buy Rajhin cards, they only buy the good ones(Grand Larceny and Prowling Shadow). The rest, including Shadow's Slumber, are situational. There is a ton of nuance to Rajhin cards and some of them can be great in some situations and useless in others which is why it's a popular deck among top players. It's very satisfying when your opponent goes second and gets 6 coin on turn one and spends it on buying a Stubborn Shadow. It's a horrible play.

You are mostly right that the "best" way to "counter" Rajhin for most players is picking low skill high RNG decks. Assuming of course you are the worse player in the match-up. If you are the better player you should be delighted your opponent wants to play a long, nuanced Rajhin game with as little RNG as possible. That's where the high win rates come from.

Let's be honest: The players who "counter" Rajhin with aggressive decks, typically end up picking these decks whether there is Rajhin in the game or not. You already implied in your post that you don't like long games, so it's not like you were going to pick Celarus + Druid King but then your opponent picked Rajhin and forced your hand to pick Pelin + Mora.

In your mind you are countering the Rajhin player by picking Pelin. The truth is that the Rajhin player is probably playing Rajhin precisely because he wants to force at least some decision trees to your gameplay instead of flipping coin and seeing who gets more Siege Weapon Volleys and Armories early on. He's counting on you to misplay Ring's Guile, Stubborn Shadow, Jeering Shadow, Shadow's Slumber and Twilight Revelry etc.. And he's probably right, so he wants these cards to be added into the card pool.

The irony here is that your anti-Rajhin post perfectly sums up exactly why Rajhin is a popular deck. It's the best deck against players who try to force one-dimensonal gameplay where the winner is quickly determined by who gets a few powerful cards early on.

<snipped for Baiting/Trolling>

El_Borracho · January 2

While Rahjin can be "abused" with patron spamming, there is a massive difference between picking Rahjin to spam versus to play the cards as intended. The Bewilderment spammer is indefensible, you will get no argument from me there.

Stubborn Shadow works in nearly the same way as Knight Commander/Banneret/Bangkorai Sentries as it has a taunt, with the -2 power only coming off of a combo, thus blocking 5 power just as Knight Commander and Banneret do. Prowling Shadow needs a combo to subtract power as it does not have a taunt. You can't complain about someone using Rahjin to "lengthen the game" while touting the virtues of Pelin, when Pelin arguably can be more aggravating when someone continually spams the Pelin patron to resurrect one of those taunt cards to the top of the deck any time it gets knocked out, and by having those agents also provide power. And this is before we even get to the sheer number of times Shield Bearer pops up in a Pelin match.

Rahjin came into the game because it is a counter to existing high-power decks like Pelin and Ansei. Its also a great counter to Orgnum and now Mora's. There's absolutely nothing unsportsmanlike or "low brow" in picking Rahjin, especially against a player who opts for Pelin.

Personofsecrets · January 2

The inteded way to play Rajhiin isn't much different from the uninteded way. This is because of the strength of picking up either pounce/grand or the 2 gold generating agent.

Tensar · January 22

Rahjin is the best deck, I like looooonnng games.

I can play 2 hours in a single game i don't mind at all, it's more funny

LukosCreyden · January 22

I never pick the deck, but if my opponent does, I will abuse the hell out of it and punish them for picking it.

Activating that patron EVERY turn for maximum punishment

Northwold · February 26

Rahjin is a well designed defensive deck that can border on essential to counter some of the more imbalanced decks like Almalexia (agents from hell) but cannot win the game on its own.

If all the decks had been designed on the same principle -- that they have one purpose and need to be used carefully in conjunction with others decks -- I honestly think ToT would be a much more well balanced game.

The one thing I'd tweak with Rahjin is the coin generation, though. It's just too high on some lower value cards.

The patron? If someone wants to waste their time and gold spamming it, so be it. They'll lose.

Neoauspex · February 26

Have to remove purple deck too then since Rahjin is the only counter for it

Seraphayel · February 27

If anyone picks Rahjin, make sure to pick a deck centered around Power if you haven't done so. Pelin / Hunding will make up for it. It's basically the only way to make Rahjin games bearable.

Neoauspex wrote: »

Have to remove purple deck too then since Rahjin is the only counter for it

Not really? I mean Rahjin is way too expensive to effectively counter Crow - yes, technically you can try to give your opponent enough Bewilderment cards so that his draw cards become risky, but it's not very smart to do so in my opinion as you're wasting a lot of ressources doing that when you could just do something better and more effective.

From my experience you either counter Crow with another deck centered around Power or you just play Crow too when your opponent picks it. Having the Crow deck at play and not abusing it is pretty self-hurting.

NeoniKa · February 27

Arnoldthehawk wrote: »

Actually here is some reason why ZOS should remove or rework Rahjin:

- Its gameplay loop is slow on itself and doesn't really work well with others, when someone use it, it guarantees that they slow the game down for their enemy but for themselves as well.
- With each spending on the patron the game is filled with a trash card that slows down the game since not interacting with anything. It isn't fun, it is just poor trolling.

Funny. I absolutely disagree.

Almalexia, Druid and Psijic are way slower. Should they remove those three decks too?

And I find Rahjin the most interesting and entertaining deck. Also, there are ways to clean the trash.

The trolling part I don't understand, can you explain?

spartaxoxo · February 27

The only deck I hate more than Rahjiin is Mora. But I think it's mostly a balance issue than a design issue. I don't think they need to be scrapped entirely. Well, maybe Mora.

Seraphayel · February 28

NeoniKa wrote: »

Arnoldthehawk wrote: »

Actually here is some reason why ZOS should remove or rework Rahjin:

- Its gameplay loop is slow on itself and doesn't really work well with others, when someone use it, it guarantees that they slow the game down for their enemy but for themselves as well.
- With each spending on the patron the game is filled with a trash card that slows down the game since not interacting with anything. It isn't fun, it is just poor trolling.

Funny. I absolutely disagree.

Almalexia, Druid and Psijic are way slower. Should they remove those three decks too?

And I find Rahjin the most interesting and entertaining deck. Also, there are ways to clean the trash.

The trolling part I don't understand, can you explain?

Druid really can’t be slower than Rahjin simply by how many cards give Power. Plus you can amass Coins very quickly. And even some of the agents give Prestige - really nothing makes Druid slower than Rahjin. Almalexia and Psijic maybe, Druid definitely not.

NeoniKa · February 28

Seraphayel wrote: »

NeoniKa wrote: »

Arnoldthehawk wrote: »

Actually here is some reason why ZOS should remove or rework Rahjin:

- Its gameplay loop is slow on itself and doesn't really work well with others, when someone use it, it guarantees that they slow the game down for their enemy but for themselves as well.
- With each spending on the patron the game is filled with a trash card that slows down the game since not interacting with anything. It isn't fun, it is just poor trolling.

Funny. I absolutely disagree.

Almalexia, Druid and Psijic are way slower. Should they remove those three decks too?

And I find Rahjin the most interesting and entertaining deck. Also, there are ways to clean the trash.

The trolling part I don't understand, can you explain?

Druid really can’t be slower than Rahjin simply by how many cards give Power. Plus you can amass Coins very quickly. And even some of the agents give Prestige - really nothing makes Druid slower than Rahjin. Almalexia and Psijic maybe, Druid definitely not.

I'd say, from my experience, Druid maybe, Almalexia and Psijic definitely yes.