I've gotten so many hate whispers using Mora recently. Some of these top 50 ranked players on PCNA are sending me these rude messages too, kinda amusing. At least the matches end pretty quickly with this deck. I've had 45 minute player matches with Rajhin.

IncultaWolf wrote: »

I've gotten so many hate whispers using Mora recently. Some of these top 50 ranked players on PCNA are sending me these rude messages too, kinda amusing. At least the matches end pretty quickly with this deck. I've had 45 minute player matches with Rajhin.

My experience is that the Patron's use doesn't generally save time. And the times that I've found it saving time, the games are often incredibly 1 sides or unfun due to blow out scenarios. For example I won a Mora game on my 4 turn or something because I scummed a Currency Exchange victory after putting it into my deck, on the suffle, with Mora.

So I don't really see how the patron can be taken in good faith.

That said, I certainly acknowledge that my general experience could be different enough from other players general experience. Despite that, I think it would have been more wise to strike at the root of game time issues such as animation speeds or toxic gameplay patterns caused by the Rajhiin button rather than make something new that generates an all new negative reaction from a different group of players.

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

i only played a few pvp tribute games with this deck to get the achievement for the card upgrade

i dont really like the deck either because to me a lot of the cards negatives far outweigh the positives

i understand the deck is supposed to be kiss-curse due to it representing a daedric entity as there is always a price to pay for the power, but many of the cards seem to be more curse than beneficial

only a few that were mentioned have the potential to being good like the huge power gen from only giving the opponent 2 coins

Unfortunately, I think that the concept of Mora would have lent itself better to effects like Psijic Scrying or Almalexia card refreshing. I can understand the Barter in Blood concept being used for the Daedra, but this particular gameplay style would have been better represented by Sheo than a daedric prince chiefly concerned with omnipotence.

So the theme feels off to me.

One thing that I can say is successful about the Mora patron is that it does make combo matters. I don't always like combos, but they are a core part of the game, so making combos matter makes sense. That said, the way that combos have been made to matter is in large part due to cheap and abusable contract cards that add too much of a luck factor to games. So combos were made to matter in an incredibly unfun way that rivals the abusable nature of even the Sorcer King contracts which are god awful.

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Let's say that speeding up games, the designers stated objective, is a good cause. And I don't think that it is a good cause in the vast majority of games, but let's say that it is generally speaking because some games could be sped up to most peoples benefit.



I don't understand how Mora successfully meets that objective.

A number of games, the patron's use isn't meaningfully impacting game time. My average ranked game time is 9:57 and my average casual game time is 9:21.

There are some games where a couple of minutes shaved off. Not enough to make a big deal out of, but enough to see what happens when someone runs the Mora scums. Is a couple of minutes time saved really worth people's dignity? Is it worth creating a new form of bad game experience?

Was it all really worth it when already existing game pieces could have been adjusted to fix the time issue?

Some people legitimately don't like longer games and that's fine. But wacky hot air balloon ride style games where power matters was a bad "solution."

Increasing animation speed is a great solution. Rejecting game pieces which encourage toxic repetitive gameplay patterns is a good solution. Increasing the number of options in the tavern is a possibly good solution.

Hearthstone is a dirty word. Remember that. It is the jail that people go to when the don't have anything better to do. Do you give people something better to do when you emulate Hearthstone? No, you just become like Hearthstone and thus without quality that makes you special.

I often play Mora when I want a quick match when I am there just hunting the daily reward. I hardly ever use the patron itself, just the cards. And this deck is probably as stupid a deck as crow, just spam it and hope that your opponent does not get the good cards him/herself. But then, it does absolutely speed up the match like none other.

Arnoldthehawk wrote: »

Fast games are the fun games. You want slow games? Please don't queue for ToT games

You didn't read my post whatsoever.

benzenexz wrote: »

Speaking of the theme of the daedric prince, neither Hermaeus Mora nor Sheogorath fits in the activity of bargin for power. The former is the daedric prince of secrets and knowledges and the latter of madness. Calavicus Vile is the prince of bargin and deal, and the "negative" effect of the cards certainly makes the deal fair, in accordance with that the prince is neutral in human affairs.

and actually what you have mentioned is exactly how this deck reduces the time. The most tedious combination of decks from my experience would be Rahjin+Psijic+Almalexia+Druid King, and if you try get full hand of almalexia and psijic order and keeps donating cards confine cards shuffle cards and replace cards, you won't even be able to finish your turn before the time runs out. That opening the card window and selecting things and pressing confirm button are all time wastes. So in comparison with that, Mora is much more time saving

Thank you for mentioning about Clavicus - I was thinking way too generally.

Regarding how time is "saved" by blow out games - it seems silly to mention how time is saved just because someone won extremely early. That is because the amount of time that it takes to play a game is being used as a measure of "fun." I don't see how games that are decided quickly are fun whatsoever. It can be because Mora added a stupid card to someons deck, because someone got too much value from an uncontested Ansei Patron flip, or because Siege Weapon Volley smacked someone in the face over and over with the help of Psijic cards to reset the shuffle.

The goal is satisfying games, right? Not just fast games because a game being fast, in and of itself, doesn't mean much.

There are the decks that you mention and also Crow. Crow has alot of long combo chains and the draw effect can be tedious. And this point is where your comment sort of rolls into what I'm saying. Instead of making universal changes to the game that could speed up all decks, the designers just went for a bandaid fix which doesn't even necessarily speed up games that well because the underlying issues such as animations speeds remain in the game.

What if someone wants faster games, but doesn't necessarily like the playstyle offered by Mora cards? I think it's fair to say that a number of people are in that boat.

Thank you for the thoughtful comment. I've quoted the parts that I'm responding to below and below that is my response.

benzenexz wrote: »

"However, let me just come back to the duration of the game. To find out if it's faster with Mora, we can test out by doing comparison experiment, which could take such a long time that I cannot afford to spend. But a thought experiment would be less time consuming: Choose whatever combination of 4 patrons, excluding Mora, as the comparison. Then randomly change one of them into Mora. Since Mora is reletively direct power gain, this means quicker to gain prestige, generally speaking, and skipping all the animation of draw cards, shuffle, etc. Once you've played the card, there is less things that you can do compared with playing with other cards, cuz mora gains power and not many golds. The offset of Mora also makes your opponent quicker to gain access to more expensive cards, which again could take more rounds to become true if otherwise, and that could probably be equivalent to what you said about "early" stage of the game in terms of time, but actually "late" stage in terms of your card decks."

- - - - -

"That being said, one is always free to do things in which he/she finds "fun", by himself/herself, and under the structure of a certain sets of rules(as in game) or realities(as in real life). But when it comes to interact with others, there can always be some non-alignments between the two or more entities on the matter of "fun". In the case of ToT, I'm pretty sure that even now Rahjin is still more hated than Mora for being disturbed by your opponent, because that gaining strong and multiple combos is simply THE typical thing that can bring a huge and instant sense of satisfactory. Imagine ruining that with a sudden bewilderment drawn by the crow, lol.
And that card games becomes oneside-blowout, that's where it is fun for some people, for the same reason mentioned above, and normally would bring discourage to the other. But it mostly is equi-probabilistic, though there are some other factor that you can do to influence that.

And let's not forget about that people tends to enjoy winning a gamble. And those people tend to call all the actions from the opponent that involves increasing the chance of wining as trickery or cheating or some other things that gives the sense of not recognizing these actions as valid."

Regarding the timing of Mora, I think that the best experiment would be to find actual game times where Mora was a patron and compare them to games where Mora isn't a patron. Generally speaking, I think that your thought experiment is the correct thinking on average. That is to say that when looking at games where power generation is available to games where it isn't available, the games where it is available are quicker on average.

And although I think that Mora does conform to that generalization, Mora has some dimensions to it which also may lead to the tendency for longer games. So here are some of the reasons as to why I think that Mora doesn't necessarily hit the mark.

- The first thing is a quality that you mention. Mora can make games unusual. So we may find ourselves making more unnecessary calculations than usual to figure out the best way to proceed after something like Knight Commander or Ansei's Victory is added to both players decks in the early game. The games could end faster if players knew exactly how to handle the situations, but correct handling of them is type of novelty that takes up time.

- The Patron can be used to slow down the game via options such as adding agents to both players deck that use up power to remove. Specifically, Tribunal Sentinel or Stubborn Shadow being added to players decks can inhibit gameplay because of their bulkiness and inherent lack of ability to add economy. And I have used Mora in that exact way.

- The Patron costs 3 power which impacts the prestige winning condition.

- The patron starter card is a power generating starter card which inhibits early purchases and encourages a more passive early game of making writs of coins.

- The designers attribute some deepness to the gameplay of the patron to choosing to not play cards in order to not give opponents bonuses. So sometimes Mora does encourage more passive play.

- Players can sometimes have bigger and more complicated turns after an opponent has given them a bunch of different resources via Mora cards. The use of more resources may take more time and especially in cases where someone is presented tavern cards that best lend themselves to defensive options. So it may not be exactly clear how to use those resources to begin with.

So I think that these dimensions to Mora are worth considering when seeing how successful of a Patron that it is. Especially compared to other patrons with good power generating options which don't have as much of the above mentioned baggage.

And to be very clear, again, I agree that Mora probably saves some time on average, but I don't really think that it is all it was designed to be nor a good "go to" for players who want a fast option. Also, to be clear on a different matter, I'm not personally bemoaning that Mora isn't fast enough. I don't like fast strategies. I critique it's design for introducing more power generation, but also critique the patron for being relatively wacky and chance based compared to other ones. That's because of the patron ability and also abundant combo providing contracts that are cheap.

Regarding the types of fun that games should offer, I have some thoughts written down at the following post.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/647758/some-game-design-observations-and-my-general-thoughts

I don't see fun as the chief concern for a game. I use the language of fun sometimes because it is the perspective that designers and most other people come from. I think that strategy games should be trying to achieve something more than fun. With respect to my linked to post, I would find Mora to be a form of game play that is too "divergent" from TOT as a whole. And, of course, none of the above means that other game issues can't be changed. A number of other issues including game time could be improved by things like improved balance. Likewise, a number of changes that I suggest to the game could also make the game more fun in different ways generally speaking. I wouldn't personally be permissive of types of fun like increased coin flips and bullet style games where some players derive enjoyment from more canned quick style games like marvel snap. I don't think that my goals and the goals of the designers for TOT are mutually exclusive.

I kind of like it, it does speed up games and I like how it adds a new aspect to the game. Some cards Ive had to skip in order not to give my opponent an advantage. I also like that it does speed up games. Matches are done so quick, regardless if I lose or win I'm just happy to get another coffer so fast

Mora is the single biggest mistake the devs made in ToT. It is absolutely brutal and is as close to purely RNG-reliant as it gets. It reminds me of the early days of ToT with the "Race to Rally" but far, far worse.

Unfathomable Secrets is such an OP card, its unbelievable that it is in the game. 4 coins for 5 power, with the setback being one card to your opponent? LOL. If you can combine that with Unsettling Aura or Chromatic Reservoir, you are hammering out 10-11 power between 2 cards, and can go up to 16-17 power with a 4 card combo, just on those 2 cards, regardless of the 2 cards you are combining them with. With the setback being your opponent gets a second card. Whoo-hoo! Oh, thank you for destroying me in one turn, I'll put these 2 cards to good use.

Either dial back the power (preferably) or make the setback actually mean something. I don't even think if you made these cards WAY more expensive (9-10 coin) it would have any effect on them. If you get the right Druid cards, you are already playing with 8-11 gold by your 4th turn

Largomets wrote: »

WitchyKiki wrote: »

I kind of like it, it does speed up games and I like how it adds a new aspect to the game. Some cards Ive had to skip in order not to give my opponent an advantage. I also like that it does speed up games. Matches are done so quick, regardless if I lose or win I'm just happy to get another coffer so fast

The problem is, the people playing competitively on the LB don't want to throw away their score because of poorly balanced game design. They need ways for casuals to get coffers that don't boil the whole game down to luck in competitive. It's really frustrating being on a hot streak in competitive, playing good games against good players, and then running into a Mora spammer who boils the entire game down to RNG and removes almost all skill from the equation. No one good is picking Mora in competitive. The top players abandoned it quickly because it's too much risk. Card games always have an element of luck, but Druid and Mora are literally game-ruining RNG farms. Even crow, pelin, and organum (commonly cited as RNG decks) can be countered and combated by skilled players on the wrong end of luck. Druid and Mora it's just who gets lucky on hand 1 or 2 and then they have a MASSIVE edge over the player that did not get lucky.

You should not be able to get 10+ power on turn 1 or 2 based solely on tavern luck. That's insanity.

I do have to agree the most desperate players seem to pick Mora, and I have a lower opinion of the deck itself. I do agree with a lot of your points, but for me, the game goes by so quick that it just doesn't matter. I find Crow/Red eagle spam so much more upsetting.

Personally I think Mora is a very interesting patron and certainly pushes a risk & reward playstyle. The thing is, you really need to play the game very aware and observe what’s going on, when your cards or the ones of the opponent are shuffled and so on.

It‘s a bit like counting cards at a blackjack game. If there‘s a strong card in the tavern and your deck is about to get shuffled while opponent this has one or two rounds left of cards, the patron can be very strong.

My only issue with it is the very harsh backlash from the cheap cards because it makes them hardly useful. Letting your opponents draw 2 cards is such an incredibly strong side effect that you want to barely ever get that card anyway. Gifting coins or might is less problematic in my opinion.

Mora and Rhajin certainly make an interesting pair when you could force your enemy to draw bewilderment cards, but no game lasts long enough for this tactic to really play out imho.

Northwold wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

I've gotten so many hate whispers using Mora recently. Some of these top 50 ranked players on PCNA are sending me these rude messages too, kinda amusing. At least the matches end pretty quickly with this deck. I've had 45 minute player matches with Rajhin.

I've had 30 minute plus player matches with almost every deck because some players act like ToT is grand master level chess and the very opening move merits running down the timer to 1 second... I really, really wish we had the option to block people.

That said, I still think giving each player the ability to veto one deck would improve the game enormously and add a bit of spice. If you hated Mora, you could veto it. (yes, this should not be possible against players who have only the four base decks)

I could not agree with you more. A veto option would be outstanding.

And, even after the constant complaints about the "grand masters" you speak of , the devs refuse to do anything about players who needlessly run the timer all the way down. Every. Single. Turn. Sorry, I will not accept any defense of this behavior. Even professional poker has instituted rules against this trollish tactic.